Why is Wing Commander so popular in Germany?

Hello,

Plasteel Skull said:
Well, I've read well what Quarto have written and I realize that it was not supposed to mean "Germans must have had their reasons to kill Jews, so it was good" but rather "by approaching the whole problem without prejudice and with deliberation we can come to conclusions helping us to avoid this problem in the future". And as much as I am a backer of this way of solving of many problems, I do not see it appropriate in thit case. Blaming Germans today for the sins of their grandparents would be obviously pointless and harmful of course, but everybody must also remember what, how and why happened and there is IMO not much space for debate whether Nazi germany was either evil or good, what was their motivation for being so evil/good and maybe if this motivation justifies their deeds. This relativism often leads to dissolution of once-firm (because of horrible self-experience of millions of people) views on this problem and possibly might cause it all happen again.

This posting is exactly how it is.

I'm 52 years old, my father has been in war from '39 - til '45 and he has been in the SS. He never, ever spoke about this time. so I don't know what he did and I really do not wanna know it. But I know for shure, that war is bringing up the worst in everybody. See what happened lately in Afganistan, Irak, Vietnam...with US, British or also German Soldiers!
Here at this point I stop this discussion.
Just one thing left to say:
Germany of today is something we Germans can be real proud of.
One Example, the US probably didn't really recognise:
Whoever was at this years football (soccer) world championschip has been impressed. It was the most colourful, biggest, loudest, funniest and best best party ever on this planet.
It is not meaning that anything is fine here and we don't have problems anymore, but it is the same way any country else has it.
 
I can't remember the name, but there was a movie about this real teacher in the states who basically converted the students in the class to act like the facists of old. So I would say judge not least the be judged the same way. War is horrible, may people die, and that sucks. I think it would be better if we just got the leaders together and had them duke it out using computer games... Let the past be the past. We should learn from what happened in WWI, WWII and never repeat those mistakes, but we can't blame a new generation for the mistakes of the old. We all have choices to make, and God willing we'll all make the right ones.

just my 2 cents..

Peace.. Now back to Hasselhoff ;)
 
I am ¼ German, ¼ Spanish (Spain Spanish, not Mexican), ¼ Welsh, 1/8 French and 1/8 Jewish, but for some reason a lot of people consider nothing more than a Jew. I’m more German than I am Jew...
 
Dran said:
I can't remember the name, but there was a movie about this real teacher in the states who basically converted the students in the class to act like the facists of old.

The Wave?
 
Dyret said:
The Wave?


Not sure, I looked it up, but can't find a good summary about the movie, so it could be it. I saw it a very long time ago, the one I found was made in 1981, so it could be the one I am speaking of.
 
I'll keep this short, too - I don't want to steal too much time in this thread... though, in my defence, the subject is very much related to the thread's topic. I believe that Germany's post-WWII hangover is definitely one of the reasons why Germans today like Wing Commander.

(...though I'd argue that the most important reason is something else entirely - with the possible exception of the US, Germany has the world's biggest market for PC games. For whatever reason, consoles haven't managed to push the PC out of the market in Germany like they have in most of the rest of the world. For this reason, good PC games - and WC is certainly such a game - are more successful in Germany than they would be, for example, in the UK)

BarFly said:
First of all - Icemans talking fits exactly to the talking you hear from the Nazis!
You really need to take a step back and think about this. Icefire hasn't said anything even remotely Nazi-like - again, if anybody around here is talking like a Nazi, it's you (though only because of the method of arguing that you've chosen - obviously, the substance of what you're saying has nothing to do with Nazism).

I should think about motivation, to kill 6 million, just because they are jewish? Tell me about a possible motivation. You have read so much books. For sure you can enlighten me!
I cant imagine that there is ONE JUST ONE reason that explains the genocide or gives only a little bit of an understandable idea!
Besides, I do know the motivation AND I do know that it was and still is absolutly inacceptable evil thinking.
The question isn't why six million people were killed. The question is why a civilised nation chose to believe Hitler's rhetoric, accepting his arguments as to why genocide must be comitted. And there, the motives get interesting. Clearly, it wasn't a case of the entire German nation one day deciding to put on their evil hats. Repeating constantly that this genocide was evil is missing the point - we know that already, but especially for people in countries devastated by Germany in WWII, it's not a sufficient answer. We want to know why Germans were suddenly willing to turn against their friends and neighbours, because without knowing this, we can't be sure it won't happen again - and you've shown in this thread that it's a question that not only you don't want to ask, but would in fact like to prevent others from asking. You say your father served in the SS, but he never talked about what he did, and you yourself didn't want to know. To me, that's disgusting - what use is it to me if you say Germany's genocide was evil, what use is it if you claim that you're sorry for what happened, when you don't even want to know what role your father played in it? And this isn't just you we're talking about - this is the line of thought that all of Germany has adopted: "It was evil, we did it, we're sorry, let's move on." That ain't good enough - you can't apologise, as an individual or as a nation, until you understand not just what you did, but why and how, too. Without a motive, there's no such thing as regret.
 
Hello,

My Father died, when I was just 20 and in his last last years we didn't talk, so I never had the chance to talk to him as an adult! But my personel family problems, i'm not going to talk about here. It was my fault to bring this up.
But you don't have any rights to judge about this!
You wanna judge me because of two written lines, while insulting me talking like a nazi, because I told somebody that he uses naziphrases like: 'poor, poor, poor jewish'.
And this is a naziphrase, especially if it is connected with the German history!
If you can't see this, you are pretty poor in thinking!
And one thing is for shure. Germany has talked about, thought about and reappraised the past like no other country has in history.
I'm not guilty, I know this, and so is my hole generation not guilty, but we and the future generations are in charge that this never happens again.

You wrote:
"That ain't good enough - you can't apologise, as an individual or as a nation, until you understand not just what you did, but why and how, too. Without a motive, there's no such thing as regret."
We know why all this happened, but we don't have to understand it, because it isn't understandable! And there is no excuse for it.
You also wrote:
"because without knowing this, we can't be sure it won't happen again "
Right now, I think there are other countries to watch more closely than Germany. Look, for example, to your own country and help to make shure that nationalism, racism and intolerance is not growing further up there.
The German history is not only for the germans to learn from. It is something also the rest of the world should learn from and be alert if nationalism, racism and intolerance comes up. And don't tell me this is just a german problem.
 
One thing I noticed with WC sales being both high in Germany and the UK is that people in those countries have had strong attachments to their air forces. From the First World War and on, the "Knights of the Sky" have occupied a special place in the people's hearts and minds.

Probably not correct, but was an interesting angle I noticed no one had brought into the thread.
 
The German people, since the Peasants Revolt, has had a habbit of following their ruler without question.

Germans are good soldiers...they follow orders without question (most of the time that is.) This can be a good or bad trait.

WWI was started by a group of Serbian nationalists who assaisinated Archduke Franz Ferdinand the heir to the Hapsburg throne. The Austrians called on Germany to help them. The rest was explained by AD.

WWII Adolf Hitler (who was Austrian) proclaimed the Jews and other "unworthy races" were the falt that Germany lost the War. Becuase he wanted a catalyst to quicken his rise to power. The Jews have been the World's scape goat for YEARS. Persecution was nothing new to them. Persecution in mass numbers was. The Jews were stuck all around the World because England prohibited them to returning to Israel.

If it makes you feel any better: USA also went through War Crime Trials
 
Hello,

Dundradal said:
One thing I noticed with WC sales being both high in Germany and the UK is that people in those countries have had strong attachments to their air forces. From the First World War and on, the "Knights of the Sky" have occupied a special place in the people's hearts and minds.
Probably not correct, but was an interesting angle I noticed no one had brought into the thread.

this a point, that's for shure.
I think there are coming in some german specialities.
Just watch, what kind of games are successful in Germany. Germans really love games where you have something to build up. The most sold game in Germany is a german one: '1602 A.D' in german 'Anno 1602' The war part of this game is pretty much the worst part of the game. About the same is for another million seller: 'The Settlers' in german 'Die Siedler'.
'Civilization', 'Railroad/Rollercaster Tycoon' or RTS games with a strong part of building up something, Age of Empire for example, sell great.
Germans also love teamplay very much. The by far most popular shooter in Germany is 'Counterstrike', a game where you have to work very close together.
This brings us to something very special for Germans. Germans do feel very well in a team. Some examples:
Schumacher, the famous german racer, is known as a teamplayer, often hanging out with the mechanics, playing football with them and often sitting around the table, just as one of the guys.
Boris Becker the tennisplayer was playing his best games in the Daviscup team competition.
The German football team is famous for its team spirit that allows them to beat other teams with individual better players.
And now we mix all of this together and look at Wing Commander! And we see it is also developing its own World and (very important) a Story where you are going to work as a team. At least it gives you the feeling.
Let's be honest, the missions are pretty much always the same, but we ( I think the most of us here) have the feeling that we are responsible not only for something anonymous, it gives us the feeling that we have to be responsible to our team that count on us.
That's my personal theory about the success of Wing Commander in Germany.
 
WWII Adolf Hitler (who was Austrian)
On a less serious note:
Actually he was born on the German side of the twintowns Braunau (Austria) and Simbach (Germany) though he was Austrian. And every Austrian knows that Hitler was German while Beethoven was Austrian :D.

But back on topic. My guess on why Germany and from what I know Austria too always was a great market for WC games is that.

- There is no big base cultural difference between Germans and the US (remember German decendents make up the largest part of todays white US citizens) - while for example Japan is culturaly wholy different from other industrialized states, with their very own tastes and products that cater to them.
- Germany in the early 90ties was quite well equipped with high end computers
- At least for the first 2 games I think knowing English was important as I cant remember if there were translations (which for example may be an issue why sales in France or Italy were quite lower as those countries never emphazised the use of the English language as Germany or Skandinavian countries did)
- A general degree of americanization of popular culture at that time (probably even more than today).
- Science Fiction beeing quite popular with at least the computer owning crowd in Germany at the time

So in all that WC is not the exception for an US game that sold well but the norm as Germany was the largest export market at that time.
 
BarFly said:
But you don't have any rights to judge about this!
You wanna judge me because of two written lines, while insulting me talking like a nazi, because I told somebody that he uses naziphrases like: 'poor, poor, poor jewish'. And this is a naziphrase, especially if it is connected with the German history!
If you can't see this, you are pretty poor in thinking!
Wait, so now you're getting angry because I'm judging you based on what you wrote? Well, at least I'm judging you based on several of your posts, each including a dozen or more sentences. You judged Icefire based on one sentence. So who's worse? It seems to me that I've got a much clearer image of you than you have on Icefire... and yet I'm not the one telling the admins to "kick this fascist out". Your attitude is disgusting and hypocritical - you're willing to classify as a Nazi anybody who doesn't agree 100% with your narrow-minded world view, but then you get offended when somebody else draws conclusions about you based on what you wrote.
 
I'm not trying in any way defend BarFly here (since I believe he is more than able to do it by himself) but isn't it a quality -- not the quantity -- of the message, what counts here? I mean, it's not the amount of sentences somebody wrote needed to judge someone, but it's overall subject-matter that it carries with it. In that context Icefire's one sentence is IMO somehow more severe than a whole bunch of these written by BarFly. What Icefire wrote is clearly some revisionist crap rather than candid effort to look for real causes of WWII genocides on Germany's (German people) side. What about this point of view?
 
The question for the WC community and the discussion at hand ist, is it relevant for todays WC players and youth? With all said most of those posting here were born decades after WW II and the only connection we have to that period of time are our grandfathers and grandmothers (who dont want to speak about it to a great degree)
 
Zelvik said:
The question for the WC community and the discussion at hand ist, is it relevant for todays WC players and youth? With all said most of those posting here were born decades after WW II and the only connection we have to that period of time are our grandfathers and grandmothers (who dont want to speak about it to a great degree)

It's rather not too relevant with the thread topic "Why is Wing Commander so popular in Germany?" but in my opinion it is -- or at least should be -- quite important for youth playing WC or not. The fact, that our grandmothers and grandfathers mostly don't want to speak about it doesn't change a bit about its importance...
 
I'm really, really, really sorry I started this off. But let's see.

First things first: As I said in my post, it is VERY difficult to make observations or assumptions on a national level. Especially if you're not part of the nation in question.
So please: Rethink before you make blanket statements like "Germans like authority". Any such statement, about any nation, is a gross misrepresentation of countless individuals, and paints a distorted image about a so-called national identity.

What I tried with my post was to voice my view, as from an isolated group of individuals. I think I undderstand what happened:
@IceFire: I guess you've been bored at school, repeating WWII history at least three times. I've been there and hated it, too. Getting the same numbers, the same events time and time again loses its educational shock value pretty quick. I encounter that sentiment in Germany very frequently: People are fed up hearing about their historical heritage, they have enough problems with everyday life.
@BarFly: That looks like the opposite - maybe you had good teachers. Picking up the abhorence of nationalist and fascist ideas, experiencing some of WWII's consequences firsthand does make for a keen sense of discernment - over-keen sometimes maybe. Some of my friends argue that way: If someone complains about Germany's historic burden, he must be a nazi because he is defiling a taboo.
@Quarto: Basically you're trying to level things out by pointing at the logical flaws, but please keep in mind that this is not primarily about logic. I have no idea how WWII is represented in Polish society - but I guess that the concept of ethical guilt is not central to it. But it's exactly that point which makes WWII an emotionally volatile subject for many Germans, and pointing out logical flaws in their emotional argument will not quench the flame very much.

So please, re-read your posts. Try to understand how somebody else might take them. And if that doesn't help, go to the media archive and watch Tolwyn's trial again.
 
First things first: As I said in my post, it is VERY difficult to make observations or assumptions on a national level.

The fact that this thread exists proves that you're absolutely wrong on this. Observation on a national level: Wing Commander games sell much better in Germany than they do in other European countries.

Especially if you're not part of the nation in question.
So please: Rethink before you make blanket statements like "Germans like authority". Any such statement, about any nation, is a gross misrepresentation of countless individuals, and paints a distorted image about a so-called national identity.

People who aren't German are allowed to think about Germany.

... and then, after this brilliant rhetoric, you proceed to reply to each individual poster with your *own* general opinions about how things work in both Germany and non-Germany.

So please, re-read your posts. Try to understand how somebody else might take them. And if that doesn't help, go to the media archive and watch Tolwyn's trial again.

We do not need backseat moderators -- especially when it's a stupid little note attached to the end of their own opinion in an argument.
 
Plasteel Skull said:
I'm not trying in any way defend BarFly here (since I believe he is more than able to do it by himself) but isn't it a quality -- not the quantity -- of the message, what counts here? I mean, it's not the amount of sentences somebody wrote needed to judge someone, but it's overall subject-matter that it carries with it. In that context Icefire's one sentence is IMO somehow more severe than a whole bunch of these written by BarFly. What Icefire wrote is clearly some revisionist crap rather than candid effort to look for real causes of WWII genocides on Germany's (German people) side. What about this point of view?

You and Barfly are both jumping to conclusions based on very little. Icefire's one sentence was not grounds for people to go crazy and throw a fit.
 
Hmm, I never thought about the reason why WC is so popular in Germany. I just assumed it is popular because it's such a great game! :)
I know I like WC for its rich background and especially the Kilrathi appeal to me which is probably linked to me despising the Hani in the Chanur series. But that obviously can't be the explanation for the rest of Germany
I like the ideas that the Germans are so affiliated with their airforce and that they want to be on the "good side" for once but I think that's looking too deeply. I sure wasn't attracted to our airforce particularily or our history when I was 9 years old and fell in love with WC1.

And to be honest: I didn't know WC was so popular in Germany for quite a time. I never met another German WC fan except for those friends I personally introduced to WC. I really thought I was the only real WC fan in Germany until I found the CIC in 2000.

Strange, now that I think about it, maybe there is a reason why I like WC so much that could be linked to the fact that I am mostly German: I like very much about WC that the Kilrathi are a rather fleshed out enemy. Not a generic "Evil alien race with strange name bent on conquest" but an "alien race with strange name bent on conquest but with some depth!". You get to know the other side and that's something I missed in many movies involving Germany.
It also explains why I like WC3 the least: it gave me the impression that it tried to downgrade the Kilrathi to an one-dimensional enemy: primitive, barbaric, evil, with the sole aim to slaughter the innocent. I know WC 1 doesn't say too much good about the Kilrathi as well but it never felt to me that way.
But as I wrote: that wasn't the initinal reason because I fell for WC when I was 9 years old and by then I hadn't watched any WW2 movies or did know more about WW2 except that it happened and involved Germany.

Now, is there anybody interested in my theories about the German's problems with their history and the "why", or are we finished with the topic? I can keep it to myself, no problem. Especially since I can only provide my very personal view based on what I experienced.
 
Back
Top