Why is Wing Commander so popular in Germany?

V

Vinman

Vice Admiral
I've realized for a long time that there are lots of WC fans from Germany is there any particular reason why?
 
...good question, but I have no answer - even if I come from germany. I spend lots of time sitting prior my first amiga computer, playing WC I...

:rolleyes:

Deacan
 
I don't know. Something about Wing Commander meshed with the public conscious in Germany -- sales have always been comparatively amazing there.

The same happened with Ultima in Japan. There's just something about the series that the Japanese really latched onto.
 
Just like good 'ol David Hasselhoff, perhaps there is a connection.. Then again
 
Linking sales numbers and "national identities" is always a pretty shifty rationale, in my view - there're just too many factors involved to say: Germans like Wing Commander because they like technology. Vorsprung durch Technik, and all that stuff.

But let me take a look at my generation (represented by the guys I used to hang out with while in Germany, playing WC) and make a guess:
In that impressionable age, the greatest story schoolkids in Germany were (and still are) told is the story of WWII, and Germany's role in it. The aim is to educate against fascist ideologies, and to promote critical thinking, the ability of moral judgement, and ethical values in general.

Now let's look at WC: Basically it's WWII in space, with less ethical problems, but a lot of critical thinking, moral judgement, and values involved. Can we make a connection here?
 
Maybe we are just to much influenced by the US of A?

When playing Wing Commander, i never thought about critiscm, i just love Sci Fi and flying Space Fighters, i didn't care back then about Kilrah, it was just another Death Star. Child time, not a good time, but at least the world,freedom, democracy even econemy where good things back then *sigh*

Critiscim, is not taught in school, it's more we are all bad bad bad guys, poor poor poor jews, all what Germany had was bad. Hey as far as i know, most US Childs know Chuck Yaeger i wonder how many german kids now Hartmann. And stuff like other Countrys supportet Germany back then, well it's never talked about. Just there to make us feel guilty and keep us at the bottom. No selfconfidence = easier to control.

"Germans like Wing Commander because they like technology" maybe one reason, but not a concious reason, for me that is.
 
Have you ever noticed that most “Star Trek” fan-films are in German? The best “Star Wars” and “Babylon 5” fan-films are also made in Germany.

They seem to have better resources that the rest of us...or maybe they’re just bigger Sci-Fi fans.
 
Linking sales numbers and "national identities" is always a pretty shifty rationale, in my view - there're just too many factors involved to say: Germans like Wing Commander because they like technology. Vorsprung durch Technik, and all that stuff.
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The Japanese love technology too, though, and Wing Commander performed very poorly there. There really do seem to be consistent national patterns when it comes to fandoms -- England, for example, has always bought WC... but almost never reviews it positively. What's going on there?
 
Hello,

Icefire69 said:
Maybe we are just to much influenced by the US of A?


Critiscim, is not taught in school, it's more we are all bad bad bad guys, poor poor poor jews, all what Germany had was bad. Hey as far as i know, most US Childs know Chuck Yaeger i wonder how many german kids now Hartmann. And stuff like other Countrys supportet Germany back then, well it's never talked about. Just there to make us feel guilty and keep us at the bottom. No selfconfidence = easier to control.

"Germans like Wing Commander because they like technology" maybe one reason, but not a concious reason, for me that is.
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Your statement 'poor poor poor jews' is somewhat of cynical with about 6 million killed. I really don't no what to say.
And yes we germans have been guilty! We have been the evil and we have been the bad bad bad guys, because we started 2 Wars with about 60 or more millions death!
Whatever you wrote, tells me enough about you, to know, that i don't like you.
I'm pretty shure you are one of this brown pestilence - this damned Nazis. You are a disgrace to Germany

And don't tell us this Bullshit!
I do feel that I grew up with critical thinking that was supported by school and the society.
Admin: Kick this fascist out
 
BarFly said:
I'm pretty shure you are one of this brown pestilence - this damned Nazis. You are a disgrace to Germany
And don't tell us this Bullshit!
I do feel that I grew up with critical thinking that was supported by school and the society.
Admin: Kick this fascist out
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And this is exactly what's wrong with Germany today. Anybody that dares to even suggest that not all Germans were evil is immediately accused of being a Nazi. No, buddy - you have much more in common with the Nazis than he does. You use the exact same debating techniques the Nazis used - to claim that anybody who even slightly disagrees with you must be an evil traitor.

Your statement 'poor poor poor jews' is somewhat of cynical with about 6 million killed. I really don't no what to say.
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There certainly is no way to excuse genocide - it was an evil thing to do, no matter what the motives behind it were. However that's not an excuse to ignore those motives. If you don't explore why something happened, you certainly won't be able to prevent it from happening again - and by reducing the whole thing to an argument that "Germans committed genocide because they were evil", you end up pretending that there were no motives at all.

And yes we germans have been guilty! We have been the evil and we have been the bad bad bad guys, because we started 2 Wars with about 60 or more millions death!
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Just out of curiosity, have you ever actually seen a history book? Because it doesn't sound like it...
 
A brief summary of what led to WWI.

  1. On January 18, 1871, Wilhelm I became the first emperor of the German Reich, or Empire. He appointed Otto von Bismarck as chancellor. With his focus on developing the new empire, Bismarck avoided conflicts with other nations and formed an alliance with Austria-Hungary and Italy, known as the Triple Alliance.
  2. After Wilhelm I and his successor, Frederick-III, died in 1888, 29-year-old Wilhelm-II ascended the throne. Wilhelm-II, or Kaiser Wilhelm, forced Bismarck to resign and followed a policy of expanding Germany’s influence throughout the world. “Under Wilhelm-II,” says one historian, “[Germany] assumed an arrogant and a truculent-air.”
  3. August 24, 1898 - Czar Nicholas-II of Russia called a peace conference in The Hague, Netherlands. This conference and the one that followed it in 1907 established the Permanent Court of Arbitration at The Hague. the German Reich as well as Great Britain become members of this court.
  4. Kaiser Wilhelm though was building up an imperial rule designed to expand the German Reich and extend its influence. Wilhelm-II pursued colonial goals in Africa and other places. Wanting to challenge British supremacy at sea, he proceeded to build a powerful navy. “Germany’s naval power went from being negligible to being second only to Britain’s in little more than a decade.”
  5. In order to maintain its supremacy, Britain actually had to expand its own naval program. Britain also negotiated the entente cordiale (cordial understanding) with France and a similar agreement with Russia, forming the Triple Entente. Europe was now divided into two military camps—the Triple Alliance on one side and the Triple Entente on the other. Austria-Hungary and Italy were Roman Catholic. Therefore, the Triple Alliance also enjoyed papal favor, whereas the largely non-Catholic Triple Entente, did not.
  6. On June 28, 1918 Austrian Archduke Francis Ferdinand and his wife were assassinated by a Serbian terrorist in Sarajevo, Bosnia. That was the spark that touched off World-War-I.
  7. Kaiser Wilhelm urged Austria-Hungary to retaliate against Serbia. Assured of German support, Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia on July 28, 1914.
  8. However Russia came to Serbia’s aid. When Germany declared war on Russia, France (an ally in the Triple Entente) gave support to Russia.
  9. Germany then declared war on France. To make Paris more readily accessible, Germany invaded Belgium, whose neutrality had been guaranteed by Britain.
  10. So Britain declared war on Germany. Other nations became involved, and Italy switched sides.
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Edfilho said:
Funny that the Japanese liked Ultima. Didn't know that, I'm really surprised.
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The whole expansion pack -- Samurai Empire -- was done at least partially as a tribute to this fact. Koreans also play UO (and any other mmorpgs) en masse.

EDIT:
-------
@AD's excerpt from WWI history: Yes, that was most probably the way it all happened. The fact of involvement of Germany (which was preparing for that war for many years before) is unquestionable.

@Quarto: Ok, so we know the motives of genocides -- to quickly gain big amounts of cash to be able to build army and lead war, to present a scapegoat to disenchanted and broken German nation (after the WWI -- surrendered without apparent reason according to generic post WWI German -- and war reparations) to galvanize it and thus steer it more easily, to gain new land obtainable only by landgrab and in this way to be able to populate it with your own nation and thus gain more power -- if there is any other motive, I might have forgotten, add it. You know all of this and what can you do with all this knowledge to stop growing nationalism, chauvinism and even fascism all around Europe? When all becomes a subject of polemics, we will think and debate and do nothing about it, everything becomes relative, we might one day find ourselves replaying our own history. What I am trying to say is, that IMO some zero-tolerance to several obviously EVIL aspects of human conduct are necessary, unavoidable and should be instant and obvious.
 
Hello

Quarto said:
And this is exactly what's wrong with Germany today. Anybody that dares to even suggest that not all Germans were evil is immediately accused of being a Nazi. No, buddy - you have much more in common with the Nazis than he does. You use the exact same debating techniques the Nazis used - to claim that anybody who even slightly disagrees with you must be an evil traitor.


There certainly is no way to excuse genocide - it was an evil thing to do, no matter what the motives behind it were. However If you don't explore why something happened, you certainly won't be able to prevent it from happening again - and by reducing the whole thing to an argument that "Germans committed genocide because they were evil", .you end up that there were no motives at all


Just out of curiosity, have you ever actually seen a history book? Because it doesn't sound like it...
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First of all - Icemans talking fits exactly to the talking you hear from the Nazis!
@Quarto

I really have to ask YOU if you ever have read a history book!
But I do not go down to the level of discussing such idiotic phrases like:
" that's not an excuse to ignore those motives."
"you end up that there were no motives at all"
I should think about motivation, to kill 6 million, just because they are jewish? Tell me about a possible motivation. You have read so much books. For sure you can enlighten me!
I cant imagine that there is ONE JUST ONE reason that explains the genocide or gives only a little bit of an understandable idea!
Besides, I do know the motivation AND I do know that it was and still is absolutly inacceptable evil thinking.
Do you know that the polish would have been the next to be punished and killed! That was the plan!
@Plasteel Skull did write down anything left to be said.
@AD
It is a pretty much correct but is just scratching the surface a little bit. To judge the whole thing you have to go much, much deeper. You have to see what happened in the German Military Headquarter (yes, it is documented - Germans), you have to know how much militarized the German society has been,you have to know about the personality of Wilhelm II have to know about the British thinking of holding superiority on Sea and much more you have to know about. This war was welcomed by a lot of people around Europe, not only Germans, but here in Germany it was much forced to get into this. And Sarajewo was not the spark into the powder, it was just an the welcomed incident, the Headquarter AND Wilhelm were waiting for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I
explains a bit about it.
 
I think both of you are focusing too much on the details of Quarto's post and missing the actual point he was trying to make. You are basically labeling the entire German society of the late 30's and early 40's as total evil and that labeling makes you no better than the Nazi's. You are doing yourselves a disservice by blaming the German nation as a whole for the actions of a faction of the German nation. At least thats what I took from Quarto's post and I agree with it.
 
Well, I've read well what Quarto have written and I realize that it was not supposed to mean "Germans must have had their reasons to kill Jews, so it was good" but rather "by approaching the whole problem without prejudice and with deliberation we can come to conclusions helping us to avoid this problem in the future". And as much as I am a backer of this way of solving of many problems, I do not see it appropriate in thit case. Blaming Germans today for the sins of their grandparents would be obviously pointless and harmful of course, but everybody must also remember what, how and why happened and there is IMO not much space for debate whether Nazi germany was either evil or good, what was their motivation for being so evil/good and maybe if this motivation justifies their deeds. This relativism often leads to dissolution of once-firm (because of horrible self-experience of millions of people) views on this problem and possibly might cause it all happen again.
 
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