Why is Wing Commander so popular in Germany?

[Quarto]

Now, is there anybody interested in my theories about the German's problems with their history and the "why", or are we finished with the topic? I can keep it to myself, no problem. Especially since I can only provide my very personal view based on what I experienced.

I'm very much interested in continuing the subject, though I'm not sure how far off-topic we should be going here . At the very least, if you decide not to post here, feel free to PM me about it.

@Quarto: Basically you're trying to level things out by pointing at the logical flaws, but please keep in mind that this is not primarily about logic. I have no idea how WWII is represented in Polish society - but I guess that the concept of ethical guilt is not central to it. But it's exactly that point which makes WWII an emotionally volatile subject for many Germans, and pointing out logical flaws in their emotional argument will not quench the flame very much.

It's not just logical arguments, though - I also find the Germans hard to understand from an emotional point of view. More than that, I think the way Germany treats the subject of WWII is downright dangerous. Nazism would have long been forgotten, if it wasn't for the German government which insists on keeping this ideology alive. How exactly does it do that? It does it by limiting the discussion on WWII, and by depriving Germany's own wartime heroes and casualties of the respect they rightfully deserve.

I mean, to us in Poland, it's clear that whatever crimes the Nazi regime was responsible for, a German soldier fighting the Soviets deserves respect, because he was fighting against a terrible threat to his country (paradoxically enough, I feel the same way about Soviet soldiers - however evil communism may have been, I respect the Soviet soldiers who fought to defend their country against Germany). Yet, Germany's WWII veterans don't get the respect that veterans in other countries do - sure, they get a state pension, and in the case of the generals and admirals, occasionally even a state funeral - but they're hidden away from the public, and it's extremely rare for German politicians to say anything positive about the veterans. The impression we get, looking at you from the outside, is that the Germans believe that anybody who wore a German uniform in WWII was tainted by Nazism.

This, IMO, is what keeps Nazism alive today. Germany has virtually outlawed ordinary, healthy patriotism - anyone who wishes to be a patriot outside of a football stadium can really only do so by joining a Neo-Nazi movement. I strongly believe that most of today's Neo-Nazis started off simply as kids who were resentful that the people they adore and respect - their fathers or grandfathers are treated almost as criminals by the rest of the society.

...I mean, I don't know about you, but if somebody told me that my grandfather was an evil Nazi, I wouldn't lose the respect I have for him. Quite the opposite, I'd start sympathising with the Nazis, assuming that if my grandfather was one, then they can't be all that bad.


I'm sure, as the range of different views from Germans in this thread indicates, that there is no one single reason why Germans like Wing Commander. However, I believe that what I wrote above is definitely the reasons for some Germans - Wing Commander simply provides a different view on war. Many anti-war movies somehow manage to draw the conclusion that if war is evil, then soldiers or at least their commanders must be evil too. With the exception of WC4, Wing Commander has never made that connection - even the Kilrathi in WC are treated with respect.

 

[criticalmass]

Quarto, thanks for picking up the strands I left dangling in my last post. Your reasoning about the suppression of national idealism in Germany is sound: The people aren't used to fly flags or do parades, and the repetition of historical facts discourages any revival of those traditions. The pictures of a swastika flag out of every window, of people in the streets cheering SS troops marching by, has spoiled the opportunity to do anything like that in our time. The constant message is clear: Nationalism leads to fanatism, and fanatism to fascism. So, in the common notion nationalism is just bad.

But that would be too easy. There is an emotional imbalance that many people feel, being taught to distrust any political movement, and being unable to show positive national feelings - because that's political maybe, and therefore suspect. Catch 22. The recent Soccer Championship may have shown some alternatives for showing feelings abut your country, and Germany has picked up on it, reveling in singing, dancing, and partying on the street, but all that gradually died away when the event was over. Even the very popular flags people put on their cars grow less and less. But people are contend, they've shown a bit of pride and no harm was done.

On the perpetuation of nazism through WWII history I'd actually oppose your view: While it's true that it doesn't help people much when you block their desire to like their country by telling thema that it's bad, I don't believe that's the reason for nazism and fascism to still exist.
Fascism, by it's literal meaning, is the idea of "strength through many" - many people, regardless of economic or social status, can make themselves heard, can move things and change society. That has nothing to do with democracy - there is no vote or compromise, a fascist just looks how much strength his group has accmulated and how far he can go.
Now, that ideology is appealing if you're underprivileged, and the democratic system you appeal to for help is just slow in following, not even considering its own problems with administration and funds. The idea of the mob, to get together to break superimposed order, is the driving force. To give that power direction, some people just use nationalism and fascism as labels: The mind is very selective, and an angry man quickly makes the shortcut to link powerless rage and the opportunity to get organized and DO something. If a cool leather jacket goes with it, silver insignia and pumping music - all the better.
But that's politics in itself. Anger and disappointment is there anyway, people who lose their jobs or have no perspective to begin with are quick to throw a stone in a demonstration, or an unfriendly word to a foreigner. Nazism steps in when those people are drawn together, and that is politics in itself. There are enough individuals around who make a living by building up political parties, organizing meetings and rallies - and the market for nationalist parties is pretty big, with all those unsatisfied people around.

What has this to do with Wing Commander?
Is see two possible avenues, and I like one less than the other:
- If Wing Commander is in any way promoting war (by showing the heroism, condemning the enemy, communicating that the actions of the individual can change society), then I wonder if the game is attractive for people with fascist/nationalist backgrounds. How many nazis (not only Germans) like Wing Commander?
- And the other one: As Wing Commander also may be interpreted as criticising nationalism, idealism, and war (in showing the conseqences, the inhumanity, the pointless loss of lives), it may be an interesting choice for someone who is also struggling with thoise ideas - like many Germans are, if any of our theories are true.

In the end, I fear that both have their place - as it is the player, not the game that decides the message. You want peace and are not sure if everything ist right what you do; or you want to destroy the enemy and never doubt what you believe - in some degree Wing Commander gives you the opportunity.

 

[QuailPilot]

It also could just be that the people who bought the games just like flight combat simulators in space.

 

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

I'm very much interested in continuing the subject, though I'm not sure how far off-topic we should be going here . At the very least, if you decide not to post here, feel free to PM me about it.
(...)

Since no moderator stepped in (or up?) I guess it's ok to continue.

It seems we share the same view on some points, i.e. that WC is appealing to me because it shows both sides of the war and that the world has less of a problem with a healthy German national identity than the Germans have.

I think the Germans are still looking for their national identity because after WW2, Germany was utterly devastated, not only in infrastructure but in the mind as well.

Two World wars on their count as aggressors, countless historical sites destroyed, Prussia erased, one of the most important states in Germany (in my opinion the most important German state) and of course the war crimes comitted by the Germans. So it was clear that the years from 1933 to 1945 couldn't serve as identification. The Republic from 1919? It hadn't accomplished anything, led to the rise of Hitler and was somehow responsible for the Versailles treaty.
The Empire from 1871? No, that doesn't mix well with the new democracy and was also responsible for a world war.
The Holy Roman Empire of German Nation? Too abstract, too far away from what Germany now is.
So the Germans have to reinvent themselves because for some reason (maybe the reasons I wrote above) they can't see their past in a positive light. And they yet have to succeed. Though it also offers some advantages because Germany fits more willingly into international organisations or the EU which is a good thing in my eyes (I know you would disagree ).

There was and still is also a strong "Anti-German"-movement (that's what I call it a bit superficial) from the 1968ths which think that anything a bit national is evil.
When the NPD (a Neonazi party) demonstrates there's always an anti-demonstration which is not a bad thing but it often leads to it that the Police has to defend the NPD-demonstration from extreme lefts and thus gaining much more publicity as when everybody would be more relaxed.

It's certainly true that German WW2 veterans don't get any public honours but I don't know if that is necessary. According to surveys, the army is one of the institutions the population trusts the most.

What I see as a real problem is that now some people get more nationalistic "out of spite". They think that the world wants to keep Germany down and they don'T realize that it's ourselves who keeps us down. That can get out of control, though I am optimistic. Especially the time of the world cup was a great boost for the German ego and some people still haven't removed their flags. That's a nice and healthy patriotism and even though it still feels sometimes awkward I think it's good that politicians here again talk about "love for the fatherland" and that there are events about great German personas.
[My personal agenda is the German language: I can't stand how many unnecessary English words and expressions are used in Germany nowadays instead of their proper German counterparts or inventing/creating new words. And that as well I certainly don't blame on some anglosaxon imperialism but soley on the Germans themselves and their lack of national identity. They don't want to have something sound German.]

As to the why for WW2?
My guesses:
First it was revenge and spite and the hope for a new and respected Germany: the republic wasn't well loved, it was the insitution that acknowledged the German defeat in WW1 and signed the treaty of Versailles. I think the Germans believed (or chose to believe) that it was all unjust. The Versailles treaty was very harsh (though Germans conditions in case of their victory wouldn't have been much nicer from what I know) and the Germans didn't feel defeated: there had been no fighting on German ground except at the beginning on the east and at the end there even was victoty against Russia in the east. So the Germans didn't see their defeat so clearly.
Now there was promise of healing for the wounded pride of Germany and the end of the economical crisis.
Then there also was a good portion of greed I think and since it were only the scapegoats (jews, communists, social democrats etc) who suffered, it wasn't so bad.
At the end I think it was fear, fatalism ("We started it, we finish it regardless of how badly it will end" - a trait still found) and maybe some superstition: afer all there were dozens of attempts to kill Hitler and none worked.

I am sorry, my post isn't very organized but I am in a hurry and don't want to lose all my thoughts.

I can only guess how ridiculous or at least inapprehensible the German problem with national identity must look from the outside.
Nevertheless, I remain carefully optimistic: Germany will find its identity and it doesn't have to be ugly. It just takes some time.

 

[Zelvik]

[My personal agenda is the German language: I can't stand how many unnecessary English words and expressions are used in Germany nowadays instead of their proper German counterparts or inventing/creating new words. And that as well I certainly don't blame on some anglosaxon imperialism but soley on the Germans themselves and their lack of national identity. They don't want to have something sound German.]

But that is something totaly normal in language history. Countries always took words from other languages and intermixed them with their own. The difference is that with English it is happening today while Latin, French, Spanish other English words etc. have long lost their original identity. Some changed over time to fit better with the German language. And its not only happening with German there are German words in English etc. so while the influence of English on other languages today is very high its not a one way development.

 

[Dran]

There has been allot of mention of genocide and Germany. There have been other contries that have committed Genocide on a massive scale such as the Good 'ol U.S.S.R. when Stalin killed 12 million Jews/Gypsies/handicap people. The U.S. and the Native Americans, and even more recent Rwanda.

The reason I am saying this is this all started out as an innocent thread and has been derailed to talk about a very sensitive subject to us all. We can point the fingers at each other saying this or that. But I think we all are a bit guilty of persecuting each other. We are all put on this earth to learn from each other, not to find faults. Because finding fault is easy. It is forgiving that is hard.

 

[Phox]

Hello folks,

I have only read the first like twenty posts of this thread. I don't see why this is getting political but anyways:

I've never experienced WC being pretty successful in germany. What I know is that Germans have always been very interested in space flight and sci-fi stories. In Germany we have a very long running (ever since 1950) Sci-Fi story (Perry Rhodan) and other Sci-Fi stories are also selling very well. I won't speculate on why these are very successful but they might have contributed to why WC was so successful here. I'd like to write more but I believe I have to collect my thoughts on that topic first

 

[criticalmass]

Phox has a point there. Maybe instead of following that pawlowian reflex, looking to WWII to explain anything German, we should look into the actual topic: Science Fiction really has a long-standing tradition in Germany. Between Wells and Verne, Germany had its own SF genesis in the 19th & 20th century with Kurd Lasswitz and Hans Dominik - both rather forgotten now, but the Lasswitz society still takes an influence by its Lasswitz Award, which promotes and supports young SF authors (not only Germans).
Historically, we might also pull from the scientific tradition of astronomers (Kopernikus, Kepler, Herschel) up to the days of Fraunhofer (who did not invent mp3, but an optimized telescope), Einstein (relativity), Wernher von Braun (rocket science, yep), and Max Planck (quantum physics). If we jump the war now, we get into the middle of the space race, which was very actively promoted in the East - I guess there still are Sputnik Clubs around - but was also an item of public interest in the West. One of my earliest memories is really not some train set fro Christmas, but the moon landing.

So there really is something that links Germany to space and science fiction. But if I look at my argument, it seems to turn back on myself, telling me: Germans just like technology, as you said in your first post.
But I still think that's too easy. Maybe Germans really are still romantics at heart, their heads always in the clouds.

 

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

But that is something totaly normal in language history. Countries always took words from other languages and intermixed them with their own. The difference is that with English it is happening today while Latin, French, Spanish other English words etc. have long lost their original identity. Some changed over time to fit better with the German language. And its not only happening with German there are German words in English etc. so while the influence of English on other languages today is very high its not a one way development.

And there always has been a bunch of people who weren't happy with it so I guess I'm totally normal too.

Seriously: of course it's normal in language history to have some foreign word in it, often for concepts that were developed in those foreign countries.
What makes me angry is that perfectly normal German words which are tried and true are being exchanged (especially in advertisments) for English words just to sound more "hip" or what.

I don't get it why we need such words as "game", "movie event", "performance", "power", "all inclusive", "anchorman", "award", "background", "basics", "benchmark", "call center", "cancel", "look", "player" etc. when we have our own words for it and have used them without problems.
I mean our student cards at university all have names that end with "card" instead of "Karte", what for? Or why write "ice" instead of "Eis", it even sounds the same.
And don't get me started on the fact that our diplomas will be called "bacchelor" and "master" in the future. Why should a German attending a German university and studying "Germanistik" (German language) become a "Master of arts in German letters" (or whatever the correct titel is now)? Mind you, I'm not against the system behind "bacchelor" and "master" but against the appelation (which is not forced upon us by the Bologna-thing as many think).

So what bothers me is that everyday-words are exchanged without any reason.

It's also shows a lack of respect in my eyes when German companies don't advertise in German anymore here in Germany. We have ads here that have not a single German word in them.
My nearest discounter here ("Plus") has gone to have almost all their own products having only English on them, you can buy "Fruit Yoghurt", "Fresh Folie", "Baguettes with garlic butter", "Rice", "Waffles", "Orange juice" and so on. I'm sorry but I'm not buying these products anymore.
I mean, the Germans aren't so good in English as some people think. The perfumery "Douglas" had the slogan "Come in and find out" - and now a survey showed that a third of the people didn't get its meaning, so they changed it to a German slogan. But that's the exception.

I also think that we are losing linguistic creativity when we just use foreign words for (not even always) new concepts instead of thinking about a good German word.

Sure there are German words in foreign languages, as we said: a certain exchange is normal. But those are not everyday words but often mean something really specific. I mean, you don't use "leitmotiv (or -motif in French), "angst" and so on in every conversation. And I've yet to meet an anglosaxon who says "Rucksack" I only heard or read "backpack."

Even high politicians show this lack of respect: a German finance authority in Hessen is now called "Competence center" - what the hell?! We have now "job floaters" installed, official initiatives are called "Girl's day" and the Ministerpräsident (~gouvernor) of the state Baden-Württemberg even stated that German will be reduced to the language at home while all business affairs should
be in English.
Hello?

Ah, I'm sorry, you see that's something really dear to me so I'm getting verbose. I'll stop now but if anyone wants to continue this, I'm all for it, through PM if you like.

Just to clarify: I'm only blaming the Germans themselves for it and I'm convinced that this lack of respect towards the German language and German culture is a result of the lack of a national identity.
In no other country I visited have I experienced such a phenomenon. And anglosaxon countries see that as something odd too, calling it "The German linguistic submissiveness".

Edit: Here's a short article if somewhat dated for those interested (mostly in English), it was an editorial for a German newspaper (and not the smallest): http://www.deutsche-rundschau.com/archiv/04_04_2001/aktuell.htm

 

[Delance]

All right, the debate here is interesting. But I'm not sure it has a lot to do with the popularity of WC in China. I think it's probably something far more simple. Maybe Germans like fast things like cars and fighter planes. I always had that impression. With the Autobahn and all that. Or maybe they simply just have good taste on videogames.

Sometimes things become popular on places for immediately discernible reason. There's this 70's brazilian soap opera that became hugely popular on China and Hungary.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

All right, the debate here is interesting. But I'm not sure it has a lot to do with the popularity of WC in China.

You're absolutely right, this debate has absolutely nothing to do with the popularity of WC in China.

 

[Delance]

Yeah, you got me there, I meant Wing Commander in Germany. Oh, well.

 

[cff]

And don't get me started on the fact that our diplomas will be called "bacchelor" and "master" in the future. Why should a German attending a German university and studying "Germanistik" (German language) become a "Master of arts in German letters" (or whatever the correct titel is now)? Mind you, I'm not against the system behind "bacchelor" and "master" but against the appelation (which is not forced upon us by the Bologna-thing as many think).

While I agree to pretty much you said about the abuse of English words in the German language, the move to "Master" is probably actually a good thing. Try to explain to some non German and non Austrian what your Magister or Dipl.Ing means in terms of qualification.

 

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

I don't know about "Magister" but from my experience (that consists of talking to people how have a Dipl.Ing., are to going to get one and some foreigners) the "Dipl. Ing." is rather well known and well received, especially in Asia, eastern Europe and also anglosaxon countries.
I mean, a good professional recruiter, who wants to engage foreign people will gather information about foreign diplomas. And with all due modesty, I doubt that German diplomas are the least well-known, especially the Dipl.Ing.. I mean look at the thread: Germans are considered techloving!

And after all, each nation has this problem with its diploma: people here don't really know what a bacchelor or master is. They know it's a type of diploma but I'm sure they don't know the content.
I mean, I don't know anything about Italian diplomas, even though I talked with quite sokme Italians about it and if I hadn't been to France, I wouldn't know their diploma names as well. (But I was surprised to hear that France will use the appellation "master" in the near future).

 

[Zelvik]

At least in Austria the Universities decide what they will call the new titles. And from what I know the Dipl.Ing., Magister and Doctor will be kept by quite a few.

 

[Quarto]

I don't know about "Magister" but from my experience (that consists of talking to people how have a Dipl.Ing., are to going to get one and some foreigners) the "Dipl. Ing." is rather well known and well received, especially in Asia, eastern Europe and also anglosaxon countries.

Yeah, for example we use Magister in Poland, too, so we could probably work out what a German Magister is .

 

[Herz des Tigers]

Interesting thread. I'm German too .

I fell in love with Wing Commander as a child, when I saw the ad or rather say the trailer for WC3 in cinema. I don't think it has a connection to WWII in my case because I was too young to have it in mind. It was more likely my love for movies and especially Star Wars. Thus seeing Mark Hamill again in this kind of game was almost enough reason for me to possess it. The idea of an interactive movie was also something that totally fascinated me because there was nothing like this out there.
It was like joining a Star Wars movie. Until today there are few games (e.g. Kotor ) that casted a spell over me like this one.

I don't know why WC is more popular in Germany than in other industrial countries. I guess your WWII related explanation might be a reason for some people but certainly not for me.
To me it was just the most revolutionary game in history and I just don't understand why countries like Japan didn't recognize it as that.

Another phenomenon that might be an additional explanation is the german fandom of "Saber Rider". I guess some of you will know this Sci-Fi cartoon which origins in Japan where it wasn't successful as well as in the USA where it was even altered to appeal to the US audience without the desired success.
But Germany still has the largest Saber Rider (US-Version!) fan base worldwide and nobody knows exactly why. It is a show made for young children and thus it is hardly possible to make sociological explanations concernig Germanys history.

I think "critcalmass" made a point with: "Maybe Germans really are still romantics at heart, their heads always in the clouds!"

This romantic side could have a origin in german fairy tale history with famous examples like the brothers Grimm of which the tales are largely spread throughout german bedtime stories. It has nothing to do with science fiction on first view but the fantasy aspect of it could be a hint. As there are almost no popular Sci Fi tales that were made in modern Germany, german people are maybe just grateful for every good Sci-Fi tale from the USA or Japan.

Germany is also known for beeing a very disciplined country (but Japan as well) so some might need a way to flee from this sometimes cold-seeming place and have a trip to space which has also disciplined Starfleets and technique that recquires hard work but delivers the illusion that all of our present problems and efforts will have a positive result in the future.

But when I look at these arguments, I think they don't show a reason that German taste should differ from the Japanese one. Both countries have a fancy for technological devices as well as for fantasy or science fiction tales.

Maybe in the case of Wing Commander it was the lack of robotic creatures (which japanese people often adore) that didn't make it so interesting for japanes gamers. Or they missed a samurai style lightsabre or their Sci Fi market is just too overflooded in contrary to Germany.

Still this wouldn't be an explanation for the Hitchhiker lovin people in the U.K.

Maybe I'll study sociology and come back with an answer. At the moment I can only guess.

 

[Fireblade]

In my opinion, the Germans should stop to feel guilty. Before you all jump onto me, please take the time to read the two reasons for that:

1. The generation of people 70 years old and younger has NOTHING to do with what happened 60 years ago. And most Germans these days didn't know where the Jews (not only them, I know, handicapped people, Jehovah's Witnesses, homosexuals, Sinti and Romanies...) were brought. I don't want to apologize the behaviour of the government: It was a criminal terror-regime, but that doesn't make every citizen a villain.

2. Is there any American feeling guilty for the crimes his ancestors did to millions of American natives and African slaves???

This is the past, it happened, and there is NO REASON to be proud of it. But it is the PAST! Sons should not be judged for the crimes of their fathers... So start your live and make the best out of it. Keep the past in your mind but do not burden your conscience with things that happened before you were born. Carry your own burden.


Well, just a closing remark to who started WWI. The answer is: The general armament had taken Europe to brink of war in the 1910s and everyone was searching for a cheap excuse to unleash the dogs of war. The Danube Monarchy found it and declared war. After that nation rose against nation, but everyone who had found an excuse had started a war these days. Nevertheless Germany assured his support to the Danube Monarchy, they were the first to declare war, not Germany. Germany was eager to start war and as the Danube Monarchy had found a reason, they used it for their own purpose.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

2. Is there any American feeling guilty for the crimes his ancestors did to millions of American natives and African slaves???

Yes! Very, very much so. American children are taught, year after year throughout their educations, to feel badly about the countries involvement in these exact things.

 

[Plasteel Skull]

Yes! Very, very much so. American children are taught, year after year throughout their educations, to feel badly about the countries involvement in these exact things.

...and what is your opinion about it? Is it a pointless burden or a must?