212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
People on the internet shouldn't argue about stuff they don't understand.
I've read that pretty much verbatim from the Bush website. That could be a "flip flop" as you say, but you can also reconcile those statements. That said, I'd like to see more context to see if there is actually a shift or if the quotations used a spliced together to make it appear as though there is one. I just quite don't frankly trust anyone, especially the candidates themselves, to interpret things for me but who can you go to for unbiased facts?ck9791 said:Kerry supported UN resolution 1441 allowing the use of force if Saddam did not comply with demands that he fully disclose his WMDs. And in the first democratic debate Kerry stated that while he would have preferred giving the inspectors more time he supported President Bush's decision to disarm Saddam.
Then he flips to being against the war. Kerry later states that he voted to "threaten" the use of force against Saddam. And during the past spring and summer, Kerry has said repeatedly that he opposes President Bush's use of military force in Iraq and would have done things differently.
However, last month, responding to a question from Bush, Kerry said that he still would have sent troops to Iraq even knowing that there were no WMDs. Flopping back to supporting the war.
And I'll hand it to you for not bothering to actually reply to my post. Attacking the man is easier than actually seeing your beliefs throuugh, I suppose.Wow Bandit LOAF, I've really got to hand it to you. Here's me thinking you could not get anymore condesending, and then you go proving me wrong. Well, I could try to put my point across like you do and pass personal observation and opinion as fact, but hey, I'm just not that committed.
That's interesting, because my experience in Europe has always been pretty much the same as anywhere else save the internet and college campuses -- the average person doesn't really care about any of the issues we're pretending are important.It's kinda funny. When I was over in the UK and noticed how little regard many Europeans tend to show towards Americans at times, I could never truly understand why that would be. Now I know. It's because of chest-thumping introverts such as yourself which give your fine country a bad name.
I don't really think I have a 'side'. I'm voting Republican because a tragic event lead to Bush supporting my particular special interest. I don't really think I'm qualified to pass judgement on any other issue, save to pointing out where everyone else is acting stupid on both 'sides'. (I voted Democrat in the last election for the same reason.)Well, stick to whatever facts suits you, I suppose. Listen to the propaganda and beleive it. Oh wait, thats right. It's your side, so it can't be propoganda, it mist be the truth. There's no sense arguing with someone who simply doesn't want to listen. Then again, I suppose you can always insult someone who puts together a good argument. Of course, that would be rather childish, wouldn't it?
I'm not clear on what your hangup about other countries is. I'm pretty sure I've never denigrated anyone over their nationality -- I've lived in Europe and would gladly do so again. Some of my best friends are European... heck, we wouldn't have a CIC if I didn't work with Kris and Hades on a daily basis. What, exactly, is the implication here? I'm calling you out because you're being stupid - not because of where you're from. To assume anything else simply reinforces my initial claim.Incidently, I don't think I'm the only one thinking you're way out of line on this one. although again, I suppose as long as you think your mature, than it must be the truth. The rest of us must be crazy/stupid/foreign, or a combination of all three.
See, again, you've posted a reply without actually addressing any points. I replied to each part of your post (from yesterday) with a fact or a question - your response was "WELL YOU MUST HATE EUROPEANS!". Which of us is being stupid?I'm being stupid? I think others would argue that. I've tried putting a point across being as civil as I thought I could. yes, it was a biased opnion. Yes, it was fom my point of view. However, I beleive you have lowered the bar on this occasion. What's next? Toilet humour for a rebuttal? Professing one's beliefs or opinions that conflict with anothers don't neccesarily have to be stupid (words, not mine), just different.
I'm pretty sure my post directly related an experience, not an opinion (or, therefore, a slight).Also, your slight against the "common person" not caring about the issues we thin are important seemed rather petty as well. International strife, political manipulation, etc. are issues people, American or not, want to debate. I think that what we are discussing now, is in itself a democratic process and still important. Don't take that away from others.
People taking posts about model airplanes and delicious hamburgers seriously deserve to have done so.Also, really classy quote about the college kids. Why the hostilities towards them? Again, why assume that a few individuals on the other end of the argument must being protesting to "skip classes and the guy college students will try to have sex with the girl ones by pretending they're really passionate about such things." (again, your words, not mine).
I don't run these boards, but I have an understanding with... oh.Yep, you're sounding like the big man on these boards.
I'm pretty sure I didn't question your experience - but I did ask you to detail things like how war with Iraq was in violation (as you claimed) of the UN charter, and how Mr. Bush is (as you claimed) responsible for the rift between middle eastern countries and the US. Read back several posts.As for the comment regarding the attitudes I've experienced towards Americans and American policy in Europe.... Well, I can think of the US Consular General in Edinburgh having an open forum meeting at the City's Chambers a day or so after 9-11. The public response was not would I would have expected (ie: an outpouring of civil support, a general affirmation of friendship between the UK and US, etc.) Instead, the Consular was effectively heckled and booed by several people disagreeing with US foreign policy and they were asking some very tough questions. I was there. I was shocked. and yes, like it or not, it's true. Thats what I'm saying. I understand you may not have a problem with these people (unless they are involved with receiving a higher education, of course), but they seem to have a bone to pick with the US.
Yes, it is. We're making fun of each other and one of us is pretending it matters. Neither of us is the least bit informed about these issues.I suppose this is yelling and shrieking to you? Putting forth an informed debate.
That wasn't the claim you were offended that I'd dare provide facts to disagree with, though - you said that the war in Iraq was illegal.However, if you feel I'm deviating, I shall re-interate. I don't support Bush because I feel lied to about the Gulf War. (Where are those gosh-darn pesky weapons at?). I don't agree with his domestic policies (continuation of the military industrial complex at the expense of civil services). And to be totally honest, he's got far too many ghosts in his closet for my trust (drug charges, financial cronyism). I just happen to think this current administration is making a hell of a lot of right white guys richer, and leaving the rest of the country in dire straits.
Bush did not lie about the Gulf War and the WMDs. He believed that Saddam had them based on not only intelligence reports from our own agencies, but also those of the UK, France, and Russia. If you had not only your own intelligence agency saying that Saddam had the WMDs, but also the intelligence services of multiple other nation's, wouldn't you believe that he had those weapons. A majority of the UN believed those reports because UN Resolution 1441 was passed. This resolution called for Saddam to fully dislcose whatever WMDs he had and allow for unrestricted inspections. Saddam had to prove that he didn't have the weapons, not the other way around.Cashcleaner said:I don't support Bush because I feel lied to about the Gulf War. (Where are those gosh-darn pesky weapons at?).