What I've done so far...

[MamiyaOtaru]

DEVIANTS! You've deviated from the original story!

I've heard this enough in a non-joking tone that I can't tell if you are serious or not. In the original, tractored pilots were sold as slaves and were considered contraband. The Remake's behaviour in this regard is identical to the original version.

Something needs to be done about weapons being classified as contraband (if it hasn't already). Perry had no contraband in the original, our Perry may adhere to that once the cargo changes are in.

Ridgerunner, do a file search for beta.system (will be somewhere like c:\program files\vegastrike\privateer\sectors\Gemini). Open it with notepad. Tell us what's in it.

 

[Quarto]

Ironically, while I've repeatedly complained about the ways your project differs from the original (purchaseable Stiletto and such ), I must say I simply cannot understand why you would keep this particular thing as it was in the original (especially since you've added rescue missions, which are not in the original). It makes no sense - why is it that if I pick up a militia pilot on a rescue mission, it is assumed that I am rescuing him, while if I pick him up on a spur-of-the-moment (for example, having just witnessed the destruction of his ship by pirates), it is assumed that I intend to sell him? Two questions:

1. Why would I not be able to use a rescue mission as a way to find out the location of a defenceless pilot that I can pick up and sell into slavery? Sure, the faction to which he belonged would hate me then, but that's my choice, isn't it?

2. Why would I not be able to act in a "good Samaritan" fashion, picking up an ejected pilot and taking him to the nearest base, either just because I felt like it, or because I wanted to score points with his faction (or even just to make them hate me a bit less, if I'm the one that destroyed the poor fella's ship )?

 

[MamiyaOtaru]

That is ironic. I shall now take the other side of our occasional debate: the canon apologist.

It makes no sense - why is it that if I pick up a militia pilot on a rescue mission, it is assumed that I am rescuing him

Because you signed up and registered to do exactly that.

while if I pick him up on a spur-of-the-moment (for example, having just witnessed the destruction of his ship by pirates), it is assumed that I intend to sell him?

Because it isn't your job. I'll think of it as some guy in a windowless van offering a ride to a 12 year old. He may mean well, but he doesn't drive a taxi. The job belongs to other people, much like it is supposed to be the police' job to apprehend criminals. If confed sees you tractor someone in, they have no way of knowing what your intentions are without looking in the mission logs and seeing that you are being paid to do so.

1. Why would I not be able to use a rescue mission as a way to find out the location of a defenceless pilot that I can pick up and sell into slavery? Sure, the faction to which he belonged would hate me then, but that's my choice, isn't it?

You'd lose out on the reward money, which is greater than what you'd get for selling him. And how would you have this done? A graphic when landing like 1: accept reward 2: sell pilot after every rescue mission so you could choose?

2. Why would I not be able to act in a "good Samaritan" fashion, picking up an ejected pilot and taking him to the nearest base, either just because I felt like it, or because I wanted to score points with his faction (or even just to make them hate me a bit less, if I'm the one that destroyed the poor fella's ship )?

Cause that's not how it was, and the game designers in their infinite wisdom must have had a reason

Dunno, I'm not really adverse to changing that, but it would take some work to have it implemented in some sane way, and I don't really see any compelling reason to change it.

 

[hellcatv]

and as for the buying stiletto thing...the party line is that when you start up the game in normal privateer mode (which is the default) you will not be able to buy or sell any ship aside from the big 4 (tarsus, galaxy, orion, centurion)... so you can't complain any more.. ha!

 

[Quarto]

That is ironic. I shall now take the other side of our occasional debate: the canon apologist.

That's life for ya .

Because you signed up and registered to do exactly that.

And if I feel like playing a dirty asshole of a pirate that never keeps his word? There's nothing (presumably) stopping me from taking on an escort mission and then, in the middle of space, blowing the escorted ship to hell and tractoring its cargo. If I can be an evil pirate on an escort mission, why can't I be an evil pirate on a rescue mission?

You'd lose out on the reward money, which is greater than what you'd get for selling him.

It's not your job to look out for my economic welfare - I'm the player, you're just the game designer .

If confed sees you tractor someone in, they have no way of knowing what your intentions are without looking in the mission logs and seeing that you are being paid to do so.

If Confed sees me tractoring someone in, they have a right to stop me - presumably, such tractoring business is their job (and this, incidentally, is the case regardless of what I'm picking up - Confed has as much right to be suspicious about you picking up a load of iron ore as they do about ejected pilots). But what happens if Confed doesn't see me (which is most of the time)? Why is it that a subsequent contraband scan will indicate I've got contraband on board? Are human passengers contraband?

Cause that's not how it was, and the game designers in their infinite wisdom must have had a reason

Oh, so I guess you're saying that you're going to remove the ejected pilot rescue missions, because they weren't in the original? If you're changing something anyway, do it right .

As for how this can be done, 2AM is a bit late for me to think of such things, but I doubt it would be an especially complicated matter. And, when you're making a Privateer-style game, I doubt there can be any reason more compelling than the fact that, in the way it works currently, you are assuming that you know what the player wants to do, and preventing the player from doing anything else - which kinda goes against the whole "freeform gameplay" thing.

 

[hellcatv]

if I remember properly, you can dump the pilot, dock, fail the mission, launch, tractor him in again and sell him...

it's not quite as simple as the dialog--but it certainly is a bit possible with an ounce of imagination...

How do you think I tested mission failure ;-)

 

[MamiyaOtaru]

If Confed sees me tractoring someone in, they have a right to stop me - presumably, such tractoring business is their job (and this, incidentally, is the case regardless of what I'm picking up - Confed has as much right to be suspicious about you picking up a load of iron ore as they do about ejected pilots). But what happens if Confed doesn't see me (which is most of the time)?

If you have a pilot in your hold, you must have tractored him in. Simple. They don't need to see you actually do it. Having someone in your hold is simply forbidden unless you were hired (and authorized) to rescue someone. By accepting a rescue mission, your name/ship/ID whatever is on record. It's the same idea as not being able to buy and sell on ebay without an account. Signing up for a mission holds you accountable for the outcome, otherwise you are probably just a pirate intent on selling someone into slavery as far as Confed knows.

There's the "fiction" reasoning. I wouldn't mind also discussing the game-design reasoning that makes the fiction reasoning necessary. Under what circumstances would it be OK to tractor in pilots? When they belong to a faction friendly to you? When they were excorting you or you them? When a pilot is on obvious danger? If he radios and asks for it? There are more I'm sure. The thing is, each of these situations is work. Our time is not limitless. It is easiest to simply leave it as it was in the original.

Aha you say, if we keep that, then how dare we add rescue missions? I simply don't feel things always have to be all or nothing. We can change things without changing others, it's not a hard concept

If random passers by can't tractor people in (for reasons discussed above), who does? People who register themselves and leave a paper trail, people with some accountability who can hopefully be expected to do what they should. The new mission type allows that person to be you.

From the perspective of designing the game, this mission type is easy to add, it gives the player more to do and doesn't require a bundle of code deciding when it is OK to tractor someone in. It is simply OK when you are hired to do so. Easy, clean, and explainable in terms of game fiction.

As you can see, I put thought into these things. I like to share those thoughts, even though it leaves me open for debates. Making so many arguments virtually ensures that one of them will be weak, and that's the one people can be counted on to seize upon Oh well. Further discussion welcome, as long as it takes my whole post into account

 

[Quarto]

If you have a pilot in your hold, you must have tractored him in. Simple.

There is a door from the hold to the rest of my ship, right? What's to stop me from, you know, opening it, and letting him in? We saw in the WCA cartoon, for example, that big ships like Broadswords (and I would imagine this is also true for Centurions, Galaxies, Orions and Tars... Tarsii? Tarsuses? Tarsuseseses? ) allow ejected pilots to move from the recovery compartment (or whatever) into the main cabin. In fact, this seems pretty much a necessity - if you're rescuing someone, you need to be able to get to them immediately after the pickup, not on the next planet.

Signing up for a mission holds you accountable for the outcome, otherwise you are probably just a pirate intent on selling someone into slavery as far as Confed knows.

Funny, but that's the exact reverse of the reasoning I would expect from an oppressive government like Confed. We know that, on Earth, there are many places where it is a crime to not offer assistance to the victim of an assault or a car accident. We know also that any sea captain that sees a shipwreck and fails to rescue him would be in for a world of trouble if anyone finds out (and, if he was in the navy, would be court-martialled for war crimes!). What reason do you have to believe Confed is any different?

(and don't argue that the reappearance of slavery made them do it - like in WC's 27th century, slavery today is alive and well on the uncivilised edges of the world)

As for the game-design issues, I don't know - I'm not familar enough with the Vega Strike engine to suggest solutions. One thing you could do is create an additional non-contraband cargo type ("passenger" - if necessary, you can have a separate one for each faction); then, when you tractor in a pilot, you get a query message allowing you to turn your freshly-acquired slave into a passenger by pressing a particular key within a certain timespan (such a query message would be no problem in the WCP engine with which I'm familar, so I doubt that Vega Strike would have difficulty with it). Of course, once you turn a slave into a passenger, there would be no way to turn him back - otherwise, this would become an exploit to get past Confed scans. When you land at any base, all passengers disappear from your ship, and you get your reward (whether it be financial or just a boost in reputation).

 

[Wendy]

You could vind yourself coding from now into next year with this

There is a door from the hold to the rest of my ship, right? What's to stop me from, you know, opening it, and letting him in? We saw in the WCA cartoon, for example, that big ships like Broadswords (and I would imagine this is also true for Centurions, Galaxies, Orions and Tars... Tarsii? Tarsuses? Tarsuseseses? ) allow ejected pilots to move from the recovery compartment (or whatever) into the main cabin. In fact, this seems pretty much a necessity - if you're rescuing someone, you need to be able to get to them immediately after the pickup, not on the next planet.

Interesting, but true, except in the Centurion. Look behind you. THere's a door.

Tarsus sing and pl? they have a door, as do the other ships, EXCEPT the Centurion. That has a view out of the cockpit.

Funny, but that's the exact reverse of the reasoning I would expect from an oppressive government like Confed. We know that, on Earth, there are many places where it is a crime to not offer assistance to the victim of an assault or a car accident. We know also that any sea captain that sees a shipwreck and fails to rescue him would be in for a world of trouble if anyone finds out (and, if he was in the navy, would be court-martialled for war crimes!). What reason do you have to believe Confed is any different?

(and don't argue that the reappearance of slavery made them do it - like in WC's 27th century, slavery today is alive and well on the uncivilised edges of the world)

Quite true. Even during war-time skippers are REQUIRED to pick up any and all victims of accidents and/or war when at sea. Therefore, all pilots in emergency pods should be considered SUPER-CARGO. That means working cargo. They can man the guns if they are willing to work. If they are not they are placed under lock and key. Usual rules of the sea during the true Privateering days in our world's history. So, if they are of a hostile faction, they are prisoners and reward is offered in port for their capture. If they are friendly, then reward is offered for setting them free. If you are truly evil you sell them. No-one is the wiser, either, because that's the way it goes. But that's gonna get messy in code. All rescues should NOT matter when it comes to how much cargo you have in the hold. Rescued pilots should take up no space. If the pilot is Kilrathi, s/he's gonna rebel and be considered a prisoner of war. If it Militia or Confed and you are friendly with them then they would be willing to man the gus as it were. and so on.

This CAN get messy in code though. REAL messy. Remove the contraband flag on ejected pilots. Not easy if thye have a general classification already. That means you have to assign them as regular cargo or create a new variable so that they take up no space and are NOT contraband. VERY hard to do. You're adding another type of global variable string here, and that has to have values assigned for handling and YUCK. What a mess. But it WILL work nicely later. AND if you have room in the hold, the ejection seat can be tacked on to space salvage, quantity 1.

As for the game-design issues, I don't know - I'm not familar enough with the Vega Strike engine to suggest solutions. One thing you could do is create an additional non-contraband cargo type ("passenger" - if necessary, you can have a separate one for each faction); then, when you tractor in a pilot, you get a query message allowing you to turn your freshly-acquired slave into a passenger by pressing a particular key within a certain timespan (such a query message would be no problem in the WCP engine with which I'm familar, so I doubt that Vega Strike would have difficulty with it). Of course, once you turn a slave into a passenger, there would be no way to turn him back - otherwise, this would become an exploit to get past Confed scans. When you land at any base, all passengers disappear from your ship, and you get your reward (whether it be financial or just a boost in reputation).

Like I said, in Pascal or C you had to add a new global variable, assign handling rules and then make changes in ALL the code to make sure that there was no backward reference to how the variable was handled. Not to mention all the if then statements that went along with it. If Pirate then... else if Militia then...else if Confed then...else if merchant... And you have to adjust all the faction rules. Are you friendly, neutral or hostile. Not good.

Is the Vega engine like that? I would say yes, even though I haven't even looked at it. It's not like setting a falg and calling it quits.

Wendy

 

[Unregistered]

we're making the AI correspond to the difficulty setting in the next release which is due out very soon

Thanks.

I'm now stuck at Murphy's first mission, which I have to destroy 10 Demons: impossible.

 

[hellcatv]

sell that tractor and get 2 missile launcher
20 missiles... use them all on the first 7 demons (3 per demon)

as for making pilots not contraband...none of that stuff is coded in the engine--it's all in a master_part_list.csv file.
You can accept certain cargo missions that let you take passengers around (non contraband cargo)

The thing is: I don't see a reason why people would want to take slaves...unless you get little reward for saving someone (like nothing)
the problem is the interface for choosing.... I think this can wait until after 1.0 it's really not part of the privateer remake... perhaps better suited to WCU

 

[Wendy]

...as for making pilots not contraband...none of that stuff is coded in the engine--it's all in a master_part_list.csv file.
You can accept certain cargo missions that let you take passengers around (non contraband cargo)

The thing is: I don't see a reason why people would want to take slaves...unless you get little reward for saving someone (like nothing)
the problem is the interface for choosing.... I think this can wait until after 1.0 it's really not part of the privateer remake... perhaps better suited to WCU

I was thinking about it. It seems like someting that might go either way. Once I can see what I'm doing I MIGHT give things a look-see. You did say somewhere that the source code is there somewhere. It might prove an interesting way to get these talons into and onto something creative again. THEN, if I can make it work, I'll submit it to YOU, and we'll see what we see.

Unfortunately, I still think in terms of outmoded lingos. Like who programmes in Pascal anymore? OR in Unix V 5.0 assembler? BUT, if it isn't too hard to play with, I MIGHT give it a go.

All done in a text editor you say?

<---Raises an eybrow spockishly

Fascinating.

 

[MamiyaOtaru]

There is a door from the hold to the rest of my ship, right? What's to stop me from, you know, opening it, and letting him in?

True

As for the game-design issues, I don't know - I'm not familar enough with the Vega Strike engine to suggest solutions. One thing you could do is create an additional non-contraband cargo type ("passenger"

There already is such a thing, it is used in the missio where you have to smuggle Regis out (though having him not be a "slave" doesn't help you, confed is still pissed But that's just cause of the plot)

then, when you tractor in a pilot, you get a query message allowing you to turn your freshly-acquired slave into a passenger by pressing a particular key within a certain timespan.

an "open the door from ther hold to the cabin" button? That actually wouldn't be too hard.

From the fiction side I can see a few problems. If you tow someone in and are informed you will be scanned, you can let him out and get past it. But what if it's a kilrathi you have towed in? Fiction wise, letting him into the cabin would be pretty bad.. If we wanted to complicate things, not being able to release enemies would solve the issue of simulating a mad kilrathi in your cockpit. But would confed get mad if you had a kilrathi in your hold? Slavery is illegal, but could you convince them he is a "prisoner?" What if you are enemies with a faction that confed is friendly with? Can't let your prisoner out, and confed will be mad. I guess that's what you get for not being aligned perfectly with confed.. blargh

Anyway, Hellcat informs me such a button would be workable, for WCU certainly. I'd like to think about the fiction side a bit more though.. feedback!

 

[Unregistered]

it sounds more complicated than its worth to me.
If I were to let a passenger in, the passengers attitute toward me and whether it is a rescue VS a capture should be determined by my faction to whatever kind of passenger it is, i suck a cat, its a slave, I suck up a merchant or militia and theyre friendlies to me, theyd be considered passenger, this strikes me as being the simplest way.
Or it could be a gamble, tractor a guy in and decide to let him in, there is XX chance based upon your faction to whatever group the pilot belongs to, the pilot flagged as being from whatever group he is from when you tractor him in. Open the door and have XX chance of him being friend or foe, if friend nothing happens life continues and you land with a legal passenger, perhaps even get a rescue bounty upon landing. Foe and you lose control of your ship for X time while "subduing" your passenger, he then becomes a slave or is killed and you lose the passenger, this is all from the fiction standpoint however.

 

[Wendy]

True

There already is such a thing, it is used in the missio where you have to smuggle Regis out (though having him not be a "slave" doesn't help you, confed is still pissed But that's just cause of the plot)
an "open the door from ther hold to the cabin" button? That actually wouldn't be too hard.

From the fiction side I can see a few problems. If you tow someone in and are informed you will be scanned, you can let him out and get past it. But what if it's a kilrathi you have towed in? Fiction wise, letting him into the cabin would be pretty bad.. If we wanted to complicate things, not being able to release enemies would solve the issue of simulating a mad kilrathi in your cockpit. But would confed get mad if you had a kilrathi in your hold? Slavery is illegal, but could you convince them he is a "prisoner?" What if you are enemies with a faction that confed is friendly with? Can't let your prisoner out, and confed will be mad. I guess that's what you get for not being aligned perfectly with confed.. blargh

Anyway, Hellcat informs me such a button would be workable, for WCU certainly. I'd like to think about the fiction side a bit more though.. feedback!

Oh man. . .I didn't even think of that one. Say that the Hunters are angry and the Militia and Confed arent?

Ooooh.... I didn't even think about that. Oh man, how would you resolve that one? From a fiction standpoint I would prolly WRITE a scene where I ran from the confed to a base or an asteroid or something to rescue the slob. No matter what, I just can't abide slavery, and if you're someplace like Junction, and s/he bails out cause you had a clean kill, ooh, I can't enslave and I can't leave him/her there. Gotta snag them and make a run for it. I see that as workable.

Kilrathi, ooh, another conundrum. The flag of door open or closed workd but not here. Well, I'm having a hard time with this one. Poor widdle puddytat. Erm...That one is gonna take work unless you have a "prisoner" flag to hit somewhere. but I can't see how that will work without a sting of if-then-elses to have the militia and/or confeds ESCORT you to base with your prisoner or literally beaming them off your ship to yours. I STILL like the idea of the chair becoming space salvage, too. There's about 180 to 220 credits for your time. But sheesh.

it sounds more complicated than its worth to me.
If I were to let a passenger in, the passengers attitute toward me and whether it is a rescue VS a capture should be determined by my faction to whatever kind of passenger it is, i suck a cat, its a slave, I suck up a merchant or militia and theyre friendlies to me, theyd be considered passenger, this strikes me as being the simplest way.
Or it could be a gamble, tractor a guy in and decide to let him in, there is XX chance based upon your faction to whatever group the pilot belongs to, the pilot flagged as being from whatever group he is from when you tractor him in. Open the door and have XX chance of him being friend or foe, if friend nothing happens life continues and you land with a legal passenger, perhaps even get a rescue bounty upon landing. Foe and you lose control of your ship for X time while "subduing" your passenger, he then becomes a slave or is killed and you lose the passenger, this is all from the fiction standpoint however.

I have to agree. It seems to get to be a nightmare really fast. It's a shame there isn't a cargo expansion that's labelled "BRIG"
So that you have flags for

Open Cabin Door

AND

Brig - (Jail for those not in the know)

Wendy

 

[Unregistered]

drag in a human of any type and sell it as luxury food on kilrah for 5000 each mebbe?

 

[Wabbit]

sell that tractor and get 2 missile launcher
20 missiles... use them all on the first 7 demons (3 per demon)

I did sell the tractor (since then it seems like there are more dumped cargo in space than ever before..) and went for 44 Proton Torps. And got a lucky break (or glitch?): when I autopiloted to the designated nav point, the Hunters were all green on radar, so I could pick them once at a time. Those buggers fly ridiculously fast so I had to lure them back one by one with insults.

drag in a human of any type and sell it as luxury food on kilrah for 5000 each mebbe?

And to do that, land on a Kilrathi capship... I like that idea! ^^

 

[hellcatv]

hmm ya...I should reduce permanent faction relation with hunters for that mission

 

[Wabbit]

hmm ya...I should reduce permanent faction relation with hunters for that mission

It seems random. In most of the attempts they're hostile red like they should be and I can't keep my ship undamaged when going for my first kill and get splattererd in less than half a minute. Which was my ultimate record for not getting blown up in that particular (normal?) situation.

 

[MamiyaOtaru]

Unregistered (208.60.35.95) Russ I think? had a good suggestion: have the towed in pilot's status as prisoner or passenger determined by your relation with his faction. However this would undermine the freedom of choice Quarto is so keen on.

Oh man. . .I didn't even think of that one. Say that the Hunters are angry and the Militia and Confed arent?

Ooooh.... I didn't even think about that.
...
Kilrathi, ooh, another conundrum.
...
I have to agree. It seems to get to be a nightmare really fast.

And that basically sums up why things are the way they are currently. That's likely how they will stay until I can think it through and get it sorted out in such a way that it isn't a big mess game-design/fiction wise. If I (or whoever) comes up with something I think is workable, I wouldn't mind putting it in the game, so thinking caps on everyone.

*musing* perhaps we could just assume a defeated Kilrathi had some honor or something and understood he was in your debt for towing him in and releasing him from the hold. Or we could say that before you let someone out, they agree to behave so they don't become slaves. It's still a bit sticky fiction wise, but would let us use that simple game-design solution from Quarto. Thoughts on that? Would a towed in Kilrathi want to kill you if you freed him?