What is with the Nephilim?

Death · Aug 8, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nighthawk:
IIRC there are some hints about ...elements securely hidden away.... Wouldn't that suggest that there is a significantly large group of the BL still at large? I doubt that they would have been given away by other captured members (if they knew about them at all).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Such hints/comments do exist. However, as we saw in the post-vote trial scene, at least some Black Lance forces were testifying against the BL (Specificially, "... and I couldn't go on!"). Between the trial and Confed/UBW picking the brains of the captured/surrendered BL forces, it's unlikely that those stashed resources would remain secret. Also, in spite of the superiority of BL equipment at that time, most of it was destroyed during the crackdown, and what may remain in secret storage is vastly outnumbered. With the infamy of Telamon and destruction of civilian transports, the BL remainders wouldn't remain unreported for long if they actually decided to do anything.

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SubCrid Death
Official Net.Nazi, LOAF's Merry Guild

Death · Aug 8, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Quarto:
Nobody is saying that the Black Lance is about to strike, Death

. All I'm saying is that there are still a few Black Lancers out there, and they're still armed - I believe that's exactly what you said, too (note: but I'm fairly certain they do have some Dragons. Dragons have cloaks, and are jump capable. So which BL ships do you reckon would have the best ability to get away?).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There were exactly 4 squadrons of Dragons, with 10 fighters per squadron (WC4 novelization). One of those was aboard the Concordia-class carrier in Speradon, which was captured by the UBW. Another squadron was destroyed over the course of the conflict. The remaining 2 squadrons were at Axius, which was taken out after the trial. Yes, the Dragon can cloak and jump, but it can't do both at the same time (presumably limitation of the total energy pool available, but it's not specified anywhere that I'm aware of; as it's in the game, though, it's canon). Any that attempted to flee would be spotted, and hunted down.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Now that I think about it though... well, they certainly wouldn't be organised, but they sure aren't just living in a nice climate, growing roses. These people are trained warriors, they have equipment - but they probably have little or no money. Chances are, they've joined various pirate gangs, which are quite plentiful in certain parts of the WC Universe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While some pirates were secretly funded by Tolwyn to stir up trouble, to invite the BL forces into their ranks (the same BL that would view most of them as subhuman scum, remember) would draw more attention than someone outside the law would care to have on them. Having 2 interstellar governments bearing down on you rarely contributes to a long lifespan as a pirate group.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>At this point, I'd like to bring up a rather interesting piece of information that clearly neither you or LOAF ever heard of. Kurt Waldheim, the fourth UN - yes, UN - Secretary-General, was linked to Nazi war crimes. Hmm... the UN... Secretary-General... tsk, tsk.
Obviously, people can get far if they know what they're doing. And there's only one thing Black Lance soldiers can do well...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I was aware of the Waldheim thing. While he wasn't discovered right away, when he stepped into the spotlight it was discovered.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Oh, and regarding "at the very least the guys on the pointy end of the stick need to know about what they might come up against" - WC2, SO1. I don't know about you, but those Ferrets from the Gettysburg were quite a surprise to me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Note that I didn't say they get the information they need. Just that they need it.

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SubCrid Death
Official Net.Nazi, LOAF's Merry Guild

[This message has been edited by Death (edited August 08, 2000).]

Quarto · Aug 8, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The remaining 2 squadrons were at Axius, which was taken out after the trial. Yes, the Dragon can cloak and jump, but it can't do both at the same time (presumably limitation of the total energy pool available, but it's not specified anywhere that I'm aware of; as it's in the game, though, it's canon). Any that attempted to flee would be spotted, and hunted down.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
True. However, Confed forces would have had to get there, first. We can be fairly certain that the Blair vs. Tolwyn debate was broadcast live across the Confederation, and that means that the Black Lancers would have realised that there would be trouble for them long before the first Confed forces arrived to blockade the system. Now, the fact that some of the BL soldiers testified against Tolwyn tells us that not all BLers are fanatical enough to want to die for their organisation. Therefore, I think it's possible.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>While some pirates were secretly funded by Tolwyn to stir up trouble, to invite the BL forces into their ranks (the same BL that would view most of them as subhuman scum, remember) would draw more attention than someone outside the law would care to have on them. Having 2 interstellar governments bearing down on you rarely contributes to a long lifespan as a pirate group.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Err... not exactly. Pirates don't particularly care who they associate with anyway, because they're already outside the law. Besides, I don't think the BL soldiers would exactly tell the pirates who they are - and the pirates certainly wouldn't ask, as we know from our experiences in Priv. The BLer also wouldn't exactly proclaim his identity every time he went out with the gang, so neither Confed or BW would realise he even existed.
As for the BL viewing them as scum - yes, that could be problematic for the BL soldier. However, in his superiority, he would assume that the most important thing is his own survival - therefore, he would grit his teeth and pretend to be just another pirate-on-the-run.
I know what you're thinking

. It's difficult to conceal your identity when you fly in aboard a Dragon. Therefore, joining a pirate gang would really only be an option for those BLers who are flying BW ships. The ones with Dragons (but of course, as you point out, the possibility of Dragons getting away is very slim) would have had to either go into hiding on a secluded planet somewhere, or they could join a pirate gang and... well, get a knife in their back. Either way though, the Dragon would survive.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Actually, I was aware of the Waldheim thing. While he wasn't discovered right away, when he stepped into the spotlight it was discovered.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, he was. But not immediately. The point is, though, he did get into the spotlight. That means that he was up there for a while, since they don't exactly take people off the streets for that post

.

[This message has been edited by Quarto (edited August 08, 2000).]

Shane · Aug 8, 2000

Started to reply, got called away, checked back and sure enough Quarto beat me to the punch on a couple things. I am saddened to see that some folks still seem to think that because they disagree they need to be disagreeable. However that seems to be the curse of places like this.

That being said, I also believe the Black Lance is not a likely threat to Confed. Are there survivors of the organization? Probably. It depends on how succesful Tolwyn was at compartmentalizing his operation and if there were mutiple cells that were independent. As Quatro pointed out, the folks in Axius probably had a bit of lead time and could have gotten the Dragons out. Where they went with them afterwards is the question. While some pirate groups might like the firepower and cloaking ability of a Dragon, I think Death is right, if a raid fails or somone escapes to report what they saw, it would definitely bring more Confed or BW patrols in to the area and hamper their efforts.

While the BL did not plunder and loot the convoys they attacked (since they didn't want the attacks to mistaken for pirate raids) I'm not sure they were without wealth. The Nazi's got a good bit of their wealth from the money they siezed from Jews and others in Europe. The Black Lance was being funded (at least in the large part) by black budget funds. Those ships and other material cost money to build. While missles and such could just have been diverted, the Dragons themselves cost someone some money. It could be that there were those in the BL who weren't as fervent as Tolwyn and may have socked some money away for themselves, or their may have been BL accounts, set up as dummy corporations or some such that multiple people had access to. Also, someone did build those ships and the way the Belesarus conspiracy was described in False Colors, there were some in the private sector, particularly some areospace firms who were very interested in a renewal of war. It might be very embarassing for Confed to shut these companies down or even sieze them, since they also did a lot of legit business with Confed. Remeber that the Allies did not punish all Nazi's and their sympathizers; some were spared because of their skills, some because of what they owned. It would be interesting to see if COnfed passed any laws regarding the BL similar to those in Germany after WWII in reagrds to Hiltler and the Nazi's. Part of the price of a democracy is you have voices that have ideas most people find repugnant. While the Black Lnace probably has few supporters, there may still be some, and they can point to the bug threat as proof that Tolwyn was right (to an extent) that Confed needs to be better prepared and the galaxy is not a friendly place.

Quarto. False Colors deals mainly with Kruger (and by extension the Landreich) along with Tolwyn, Richards and Bear, getting an old Kilrathi supercarrier operational. Kruger thinks the Ctas on the other side of the border are getting ready to attack the Landreich and he wants to be prepared. The confed diplomat on the scene is arguing they are pirate attacks and is trying to get the Kruger to back down. With that not working he is trying to manuver Kruger out of power. However, the reasons for this is the diplomat is part of a conspiracy to get the war with Kilrathi going again. However, they want the Cats to fire the first shots and take a good bit of the Landriech. That will force Confed to declare war, and will allow the Confed military to take over. This is simplified, mind you. The general consensus of the books and the games is that Confed is keeping clear of Kilrathi politics. I don't agree with Confed's policy, just as I don't agree with some US policy. The only differenci s I can do a little about the latter, the former I could only affect if I joined EA, got a contarct to write books for Baen, etc.

If Melek's clan (or another supporting an alliance with Confed) is vastly outnumbered and overmatched, then I can understand Confed letting events run without interefernece. Of course I also recall when I was in High School, I went to one of those think tanks for honor students. We had about a dozen of them over the year. One or two kids from each High School would go to the conference and we would get a briefing, of sorts, on one issue, the Strategic Development Initative (Star Wars missle defense) for example. We were randomly assigned numbers and people with the smae number got together in a group and taht group was assigned a specifc point of view (build Star Wars, for example) and tried to come up with the best arguments for that policy. The group you were in sometimes was broken down into smaller groups to deal with specific sub-issues. Finally your group would come to a consensus and present your results to the rest of people there. Then everyone would vote to detrmine what policy would be. It wasn't perfect, but it was a nice introcution into consensus building and understanding how policy decisions are theoretically made. The point of this is one of our seesions was on the Iran-Iraq War. We finally determined that it was in the best interest of the United States for both sides to continue fighting and for neither side to ahieve a victory. I always assume that is the argument that goes on in Confed. It is better for the Cats to fight amongst themselves and they won't be a threat to us. However supporting a side in a conflict, even if they win, may bite you in the end. I think it is worth the chance for a more peaceful Kilrathi Empire on our borders, but it is a risk, and by no means is a guarntee of long term peace.

[This message has been edited by Shane (edited August 08, 2000).]

Knight · Aug 8, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Death:
Such hints/comments do exist. However, as we saw in the post-vote trial scene, at least some Black Lance forces were testifying against the BL (Specificially, "... and I couldn't go on!"). Between the trial and Confed/UBW picking the brains of the captured/surrendered BL forces, it's unlikely that those stashed resources would remain secret. Also, in spite of the superiority of BL equipment at that time, most of it was destroyed during the crackdown, and what may remain in secret storage is vastly outnumbered. With the infamy of Telamon and destruction of civilian transports, the BL remainders wouldn't remain unreported for long if they actually decided to do anything.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Remember who said those things? They were the ones that were captured. The guy Robert's played, and a couple of other pilots who I am assuming were from the Vesuvious. All those pilots you shot down, a few were sure to eject. They can't all be that stupid. I'd say plea bargins had to do with what they testified for, etc. And I doubt they'd have trouble getting 20 Drags off of Axius. Look at the WCP map. With even the quickest jump times, you're looking at a good span of time from when Blair alerts The Assembly on, and with as many people as Axius had on board, it wouldn't take much to get those Drag's movin'. Not to mention the UBW ships there.

And look at how soldiers are trained now. #1, if you're on a need to know basis and you don't need to know, YOU DON'T KNOW, because THEY WON'T TELL YOU! #2, A bunch of suped up warriors like the BL aren't likely to just babble on everything they know about. The two or three that testified might have known a bit about what was at Axius, but like I said, they had time to get alot of that off. (Compare times. They could get out of the way, and into Kilrathi space in a hurry, and hide somewhere. I doubt that every member was informed of these secure elements, not to mention, why would you say secure, if they weren't?

Tolwyn wasn't stupid about setting up the BL. We know that already. So why should we assume he was stupid about how he set it up? Like Zero said in WCP (negatively about hte Midway) "They put all their eggs into one little basket with no backup." When Tolwyn set up the BL, it wasn't his first ride on the Merry-go-round. He'd did things like this before, only legally. Stratigically and tactically speaking, of course, the moving of forces, the keeping of forces secure, and hush-hush. (Hell, he hid the Behemoth(SP?) didn't he? Tell me that didn't take some work

)

Just like Quarto said, we're not saying there's enough to come back and take over Confed. But I highly doubt that a well-set-up, well funded organization like the BL, is just going to go under because of something like that. That's why there's a chain of command, so if one goes down, another can pop up. I mean, it was a signifigant drawback, but again, we don't know how much credits, forces, etc were diverted to the BL's cause. Like I said, or at least tried to, Tolwyn wasn't going to put that much time into realizing his dream, and put it all in one little basket (but I wouldn't call Axius a "little basket"

).

And about Dragons being spotted leaving, Let me get this strait, the Drag can't get set up for the jump, decloak and be outta town in a heartbeat? If the pilot was any good at all, (and the BL were the "elite"), he could pull it off, and even if Confed fighters picked him up, he could be in the next system cloaked, on his way, before the Confed fighters got through the jump. And if enough of them got through, which I'm following the fact that they weren't completely broke, as some have portrayed, they could begin their own band of pirates, except not use the Dragons. I know it sounds stupid to let a piece of hardware like that just sit around, but I mean, if they were going to keep it secure til they could figure out their bearings, they could do it.

As for the religious things, I prefer not to talk about politics, religion, and her, so I'll stay out of it.

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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.

KillerWave · Aug 8, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by klaus:
Confed involvement could end up like gambling on a slot machine, or in another game inside a casino. Some resources at the beginning, and a prize at the end, but very few chances of lucking it out in the first try. Could end up like a money trap.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Couldnt had sayd better...

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Well, its classified... i mean, i could tell you, but then i have to kill you...

Metras · Aug 9, 2000

Wow... I've been away for only a short time and now the thread has progressed over 195 posts... hoooweee!

Nighthawk · Aug 9, 2000

The way I see the whole BL thing is this:

Tolwyn's primary goal was to enhance the human race in order to be prepared for "..the fight against the next race that wants to conquer humanity.". To achieve his goal he followed two different routes:

a) he tinkered with the BL soldiers' DNA to enhance them physically (and mentally?

) for greater individual powers

b) he tried to change Confed politics by triggering a war with the UBW.

As we have witnessed in WC4, part b) of his plan failed due to our most-admired hero

.

But as Tolwyn told his troops in his speech in Axius the third (?) generation of BL people would be able to gestate. So I think it's save to say that they are around for quite some time already. I also think we can assume that they weren't held in a lab like rats

. They must live on some planet in secrecy (perhaps even with legal identities). Their goal would not be to take over Confed by force. So they could stay undetected for a large amount of time, especially if the BL troops used by Tolwyn in the UBW incident didn't know about their hiding places (even if they know that they exist). Tolwyn would have been clever enough to keep those two groups totally separated.

Another point may also be that while, on one hand, the captured BL soldiers may not have agreed with Tolwyn's actions concerning the UBW and consequently helped Confed to hunt down rogue BL troops, they might, on the other hand, still agree with his original goal of enhancing the human race and keep quiet about the other part of the project.

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No one will hear your cry of death in the void of space

KrisV · Aug 9, 2000

It's possible that there are still former Blacklance people around, but they'd be farmers or privateers or whatever. They wouldn't have a hidden agenda, they wouldn't be pursuing Tolwyn's goals, they wouldn't give a rat's ass about taking over Confed or whiping out 95% of the human race, and so on. Just regular people. Now, will you please move on with your lives? Or are we gonna have to pull a William Shatner to get through?

Shane · Aug 9, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by KrisV:
It's possible that there are still former Blacklance people around, but they'd be farmers or privateers or whatever. They wouldn't have a hidden agenda, they wouldn't be pursuing Tolwyn's goals, they wouldn't give a rat's ass about taking over Confed or whiping out 95% of the human race, and so on. Just regular people. Now, will you please move on with your lives? Or are we gonna have to pull a William Shatner to get through?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If they still believed in the cause I could see some of them trying to pursue Tolwyn's agenda, though maybe not in as direct a fashion as Tolwyn tried to do. It would depend on how many BL people survived the collapse, and where they were positioned. Clearly the Black Lance had some influential support within the military. However I don't think they could ever overcome the use of bioweapons on a human population, and they will never be the kind of threat they once were. Unless they went in the direction of the main bad guys in the Rainbow Six novel by Tom Clancy. Try to infect the population with a slower acting bioweapon, one that will allow for a longer incubation period and therefore will be easier to spread across Confed.

That being said, the sense I got from Prophecy was that Origin wanted to go in a new direction, and were phasing out the old guard and bringing in new blood. So from their POV, the BL is probably gone for good, except as a histrocial reference, like the one Dallas made.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is pulling a William Shatner? Something to do with the many deaths and rebirths of Kirk?

KrisV · Aug 9, 2000

That would be telling you to "get a fucking life" and let it go

I don't understand why some people have to hang on to the Black Lance. We're told that they're gone, common sense dictates they're gone, their equipment is useless (the Vampire is better than the Dragon, there is anti-cloak technology and flash-packs no longer work on the newest of carriers). It's just stupid. It's like those sad people who believe Elvis or 2Pac are still alive.

Shane · Aug 9, 2000

Thanks for the clarification on the Shatner comment. As for the Black Lance, yeah it borders on the world of conspiracy theory, but its still kind of fun to "What if?"

I hadn't heard about the anti-cloaking tech, but I figured that is why none of the WCP ships had cloaks. A few BL folks with time, some resources and samples of the bioweapon could accomplish quite a lot. However it would not make an interesting WC game, and several people (like Clancy) have already done the supervirus novel.

Knight · Aug 9, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by KrisV:
It's possible that there are still former Blacklance people around, but they'd be farmers or privateers or whatever. They wouldn't have a hidden agenda, they wouldn't be pursuing Tolwyn's goals, they wouldn't give a rat's ass about taking over Confed or whiping out 95% of the human race, and so on. Just regular people. Now, will you please move on with your lives? Or are we gonna have to pull a William Shatner to get through?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, so, let me get this strait, again, because in WCP we hear Dallas say "...what with the BL out of hte picture and all..." and they aren't mentioned other than that, they are dead? Let me get this strait, every civilian knows everything that happens in Confed, correct? Because that's the impression I'm getting off your side of it. Ever hear, "what they don't know, won't hurt'em"? Very, very good comment for this case. I'm not saying that Confed is running the BL legitimately, rather than Tolwyn running it behind the scenes, but they are just going to throw away all that tech, all that research, an entire God damned star base, plans for a superior fighter with a M/aM powerplant and a cloak that doesn't burn out? At the time, there wasn't any anti-cloak, so why wouldn't they hang on to that little piece of tech? A M/aM powerplant may be expensive to build, but with the superior shields and weaponry of the WCP era, a Dragon would be a perfectly legit fighter. You can't compare a freshly picked apple to one that hit the ground on it's own yesterday. That's discrimination

But they're going to throw it all away, everything they've funded, rather than just say they did and hide it from the public? And if there is another BL base, in another desolate world, far from Confed patrols, why wouldn't Tolwyn's ideals be brewing, just minus the diverted funding

I mean, the BL itself will die eventually, but it'd be just like the Nazis, it won't happen as soon as Tolwyn hangs himself. But to think that Confed would just throw all that away...I just can't see where you get that. Bad rep or no bad rep, in that era of WC, the BL had the best tech around, bar none. They wouldn't throw it away. Not a chance in Hell.

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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.

Knight · Aug 9, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Shane:
Thanks for the clarification on the Shatner comment. As for the Black Lance, yeah it borders on the world of conspiracy theory, but its still kind of fun to "What if?"

I hadn't heard about the anti-cloaking tech, but I figured that is why none of the WCP ships had cloaks. A few BL folks with time, some resources and samples of the bioweapon could accomplish quite a lot. However it would not make an interesting WC game, and several people (like Clancy) have already done the supervirus novel. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Anti-Cloak is just something thrown in at the last minute, from what i can take in. The reasons none of them had cloaks is because they had to get it on shelves. Also why those little turret things on the front of the Vamp and Panther don't do anything.

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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.

KillerWave · Aug 9, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Knight:
they are just going to throw away all that tech, all that research, an entire God damned star base, plans for a superior fighter with a M/aM powerplant and a cloak that doesn't burn out? At the time, there wasn't any anti-cloak, so why wouldn't they hang on to that little piece of tech? A M/aM powerplant may be expensive to build, but with the superior shields and weaponry of the WCP era, a Dragon would be a perfectly legit fighter. You can't compare a freshly picked apple to one that hit the ground on it's own yesterday. That's discrimination

But they're going to throw it all away, everything they've funded, rather than just say they did and hide it from the public?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. The dragon, because its M/aM powerplant, is way to expensive, and because the panther is superior to the dragon, there is no need to keep using dragons (most of them where destroyed anyway)

2. The flash-pack doesnt work on the new confed capships, in the TCS Vesuvius, it would had to be used in the inside to make it work, so it isnt pratical

3. It was peace-time in WCP, so i dont think there was to much need for cloack anyway, and because thats the anti-cloack tech, it doesnt matter that your cloack cant run out, because you will be detected anyway

5. For the bio-weapons, the assembly was against it, then, if confed would use it, it would get the assembly and all civilians against them. Even most part of confed would object anyway...

6. And for using *any* bl tech would bring back to item 4.

Right???

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Well, its classified... i mean, i could tell you, but then i have to kill you...

Knight · Aug 10, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by KillerWave:
1. The dragon, because its M/aM powerplant, is way to expensive, and because the panther is superior to the dragon, there is no need to keep using dragons (most of them where destroyed anyway)

2. The flash-pack doesnt work on the new confed capships, in the TCS Vesuvius, it would had to be used in the inside to make it work, so it isnt pratical

3. It was peace-time in WCP, so i dont think there was to much need for cloack anyway, and because thats the anti-cloack tech, it doesnt matter that your cloack cant run out, because you will be detected anyway

5. For the bio-weapons, the assembly was against it, then, if confed would use it, it would get the assembly and all civilians against them. Even most part of confed would object anyway...

6. And for using *any* bl tech would bring back to item 4.

Right???

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. How is the Panther superior to it? I'd really like to know.

2. I never said anything about the flash pack. However, logically, it could be adapted to latch onto newer ships.

3. Peacetime. OK, whatever. I believe Patricia Drake said it best. There's no such thing. 'nuff said. Peacetime or not, Tolwyn had one thing right, you need to perfect your methods of war, always, because when you don't, well, thats when it starts to fall apart, and if it wasn't for the Nephilim, Confed's military budget would have went down the tubes.

4. Now, I just know you intended to put a number 4 here, didn't you?

5. Bioweapons. Well, you don't think that they would keep the tech, even if just on paper, around? Who knew back then what was going to happen? Make a few and lob'em through the gate at Proxmia, see what happens. A weapon of such great power as that, one doesn't just throw away.

6. *ANY* BL tech, well, since that's all the stuff we know about, who's to say what we DON'T know about.

Now, in general, a good description of what I'm getting at, lies in Star Wars. When the Rebellion conquered the Empire, they didn't just burn up every Star Destroyer and Imperial fighter they came across. Even with what the Empire stood for in most people's eyes. Once people see that the ships are used for good, and not for their former employment, it eased their minds.

Also, about the Assembly being against it, how much did the Assembly know about the Behemoth? The Temblor? Axius Station? My guess would be not too damn much, since if they did, everyone would have known about it, and there'd have been no point in it.

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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.

Death's Head · Aug 10, 2000

I guess I'm still one of the few that thinks M/AM was expensive for a fighter around '71. In '81, for all intents and purposes, fighters can make jumps (if not many several before refueling). For all we know they have some smaller, more efficient and cheaper reactor to provide more power while using less fuel. Certainly with the much longer travel in Proph, small ship size, and higher performance, such an engine ought to be in place.

However, being unbiased as I am

, I'll offer a possible solution to fuel consumption. Ship's mass. Generally ships in WCP are smaller and lighter. Advancement in tech often yield miniturization of most systems (except missiles apparently). This allows for greater space devoted to the storage of hydrogen fuel. Another possible innovation possibly in place is fuel compression, which would result in larger qauntities of fuel per unit volume. Now if the larger WC3, 4 ships would eventually drain their primary fuel reserve, we don't notice this problem anymore. Either this was included or ships no longer have this issue. Lighter masses mean less fuel consumed, allowing for greater speeds and most likely, longer range.

Either way, newer ships would likely need some kind of thrust enhancer to expel exhaust quicker, getting more performance out of less fuel. Perhaps even a mechanism similar to but not on the same scale and fashion as the Squid's?

Don't get me started on cloaks.

Shane · Aug 10, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Knight:
1. How is the Panther superior to it? I'd really like to know. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Faster, slightly better manuverability, better missle loadout (though no torps). Is a little thinner in the armor and shield department, though. The Vampire, which Death mentioned, is also faster, much more manuverable and has a much more extenisve missle loadout (also no torps.) The Dragon still had better shields, but the Vampire has better armor.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> 2. I never said anything about the flash pack. However, logically, it could be adapted to latch onto newer ships. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This may have been explained in the WCP Player's guide, though I'm not sure. It could be that it was never designed to be used on larger ships, the BL only seemd to use it on transports. I agree it could still be used on smaller ships. The thing was supposed to superheat the atmosphere inside a ship, if I recall correctly. Could be that the newer ships have an extra layer of armor (sort of like double pane windows) and the flashpak doesn't have enough atmosphere to generate a sufficent reaction.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> 3. Peacetime. OK, whatever. I believe Patricia Drake said it best. There's no such thing. 'nuff said. Peacetime or not, Tolwyn had one thing right, you need to perfect your methods of war, always, because when you don't, well, thats when it starts to fall apart, and if it wasn't for the Nephilim, Confed's military budget would have went down the tubes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

KillerWave mentioned also that it was not just peacetime but also the anti-cloak. Confed had likely been working on beating the cloak or at least duplicating it ever since they finally acknowledged the Kilrathi had stealth fighters. I would assume that the Black Lance used a lot of Confed's reasearch to get the Dragons to work. It is also safe to assume that once the matter was over, the Dragons that were captured were taken apart to figure out how they worked (if the records were not already available.) Once they knew how they worked, it would be easier to figure how to overcome the cloak. As for military expeneditures, the military always is usually underfunded in peacetime. Of course there are those on the left in the US, who say the military is over-funded. These are some of the same people who have a beautiful vision of the world sitting around singing in beautiful harmony. Unfortunately our world is not the firendly place they want it to be. It's a nice dream, but I don't see it happening.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> 5. Bioweapons. Well, you don't think that they would keep the tech, even if just on paper, around? Who knew back then what was going to happen? Make a few and lob'em through the gate at Proxmia, see what happens. A weapon of such great power as that, one doesn't just throw away. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you for the most part on this one. Public opinion though would be towrads getting rid of this kind of weapon, so the government might have some problems. Look at the case with Small pox these days. There are some folks who want to destroy the last remaining strains of the virus becasue they are afraid something may happen and the virsu could fall into the wrong hands. Others argue that the samples are secure and too valuable to be destroyed. I can see the same argument for the bioweapons from BL. I would think that Confed would keep samples to study and perhaps try to find a means of neutralizing them. The way they are designed, that would be very tricky.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Now, in general, a good description of what I'm getting at, lies in Star Wars. When the Rebellion conquered the Empire, they didn't just burn up every Star Destroyer and Imperial fighter they came across. Even with what the Empire stood for in most people's eyes. Once people see that the ships are used for good, and not for their former employment, it eased their minds.

Also, about the Assembly being against it, how much did the Assembly know about the Behemoth? The Temblor? Axius Station? My guess would be not too damn much, since if they did, everyone would have known about it, and there'd have been no point in it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This gets back to the peacetime issue in a way and the whole point of the Black Lnace. During the war the military had a much freer hand, they could claim a need for secrecy to build things like the behemoth, and keep it hidden, because it was a matter of Confederation security. After the war those restrictions were starting to be lifted (though the WCIV novel mentions several key ones had not yet been.) Without the Kilrathi as a threat, and no toher real threat present, there are many people who would not like the idea of the Confed Government continuing to funnel money into black budget projects. The people who are responsible for how the money is allocated, the legislature, would want to have the control back over spending that they had before. They want the military to account for where its money is being spent. The appearence of the Black Lance would only stregthen that desire. I'm sure there will still be projects that aren't well known to the public and even all of the legislature. The US does this currently, there are some memebrs of different committees who are pirvy to information the rest of the House or Senate are not, but the Congress is not kept completely out of the loop. I imagine that is what is happening with Confed as well. After the Black Lance it is probably much harder for anyone in the military to divert government credits to black budget projects that the legislature knows nothing about.

As for the Rebel Alliance, I see where you are going, but the situation is slightly different. The rebels still had quite a fight on their hands and had to take the attitude you mentioned. Confed had plenty of weapons and ships, so using them, even for "good" was not as necessary. They could afford to destroy most of the BLs equipment. The PR of detroying them, or at least not using them for anything more than research, was worth more than their effectiveness.

[This message has been edited by Shane (edited August 10, 2000).]

Knight · Aug 10, 2000

Well, Shane, I'm not going to argue with all but one of those points.

While the Vampire may be superior to the Dragon as it sits, like I said, you can't make a comparison of that nature. It's like comparing a week-old apple to a freshly picked one. Over time, with the periodic development of technology and upgrading to newer Confed standards, the Dragon would give any later ship a run for it's money, including the Nephilim ships. Manuverablity isn't shit if you don't have the pilot to use it, which was one of the BL's advantages, they had superior, "elite" if you will, pilots. But like I said, at least give the ship a fair run for it's money. If Confed's still got T-bolts and Excalibers flyin', the Drag would have to be a plausible idea in the WCP era.

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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.

Penguin · Aug 10, 2000

Let it go Knight. All the Dragons were destroyed or captured. There's no point keeping them operational because there are so few left & budgets are better spent on newer designs like the Vampire & the Panther.

What is with the Nephilim?

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