What is the most successful class?

[ELTEE]

After taking a look at the achievements of the Bengal class, I started wondering what we consider to be the best - and, unavoidably, the worst - class of carrier in the Wing Commander universe? Of course, all time periods are open for debate - but for the scope of this thread, let's really focus on carriers.

Obviously, success can mean vastly different things for different classes. Are the Concordia fleet carriers the most successful because they formed the back bone of the fighter projecting fleet and had a long career that went beyond the Kilrathi conflict?

Or, perhaps it was the Hakaga class because of its ultimate power and ability to dominate a battle space - though in the end, the class failed to achieve the ultimate objective for which it was constructed.

There will, undoubtedly, be opinion mixed with fact. Despite this, let's see if we can determine who the real winner is.

I would thus humbly submit the following:

Best - Concordia class fleet carrier. Served quietly but adequately, providing the fleet with figher support where ever it was needed without glitz or glamour. The un-sung hero.

Worst - Lexington class. Undoubtedly, we can infer that such a ship would have been extremely expensive to construct in order to survive the type of mission intended. The lead ship of the class failed to complete the assigned mission - ultimately too complex and costly to be justified as as a traditional frontline carrier.

 

[frostytheplebe]

Or, perhaps it was the Hakaga class because of its ultimate power and ability to dominate a battle space - though in the end, the class failed to achieve the ultimate objective for which it was constructed.

Standoff's Jutland class, given the history of how quickly they were getting blasted, is the biggest failure.

The Tarawa and Standoff's Firekka, the CVE Wake class? I'd say they were pretty durable and successful for a makeshift carrier.

Why cite the Hakaga? for all that was poured into their production, i'd say that was the biggest disaster of Thrakath's war effort. They failed miserably.

 

[ELTEE]

Why cite the Hakaga? for all that was poured into their production, i'd say that was the biggest disaster of Thrakath's war effort. They failed miserably.

Completely true. I was just trying to fuel some discussion. Someone could conceivably argue that it is the best in the sense that, all other things being equal and resource consumption conveniently ignored, in a tactical engagement against a Terran carrier of any class, the odds of the Hakaga losing would be pretty small.

 

[Dundradal]

Why cite the Hakaga? for all that was poured into their production, i'd say that was the biggest disaster of Thrakath's war effort. They failed miserably.

They only failed in such a manner because they were attacked in a manner that in any other battle (and even during BoT) was pure suicide. The designers never thought about boarding actions. The Hakaga is designed to go into a slugging match with Confed forces and come out marginally operational.

I certainly think there is an argument to say they were the best war-time carrier put into service by either side because of their potential...even though it wasn't reached.

 

[Jason_Ryock]

They only failed in such a manner because they were attacked in a manner that in any other battle (and even during BoT) was pure suicide. The designers never thought about boarding actions. The Hakaga is designed to go into a slugging match with Confed forces and come out marginally operational.

This is where this discussion is going to get tricky - when talking about best class do you want to talk about the class that best fulfilled it's created purpose?

Because if that's true then the Hakaga is the best class - it staged a major fleet breakthrough right to Confederation lines and hammered what little fleet they had left. They might have ultimately lost due to incompetent tactics, but ultimately, they succeeded in their established purpose, which was to give Kilrah a shot at earth.

On the other hand, the CVE's weren't really established to do behind the lines raiding. They were cheap and expendable and meant to be thrown away to supplement larger forces or escort transports. And yet - they smashed a shipyard and killed five carriers in drydock over Kilrah. An argument could be made that this class exceeded it's expectations.

But now we have a problem. The CVE is suddenly the best class because of the tactics that were used to advance it's purpose, while the Hakaga is worst class for exactly the same reason.

So what's your criteria for rating the 'best' and the 'worst'? You should set up ten points like they do on the those "Top Ten Whatever!" Shows on the military channel so we can have proper comparisons.

 

[Mancubus]

The Threads title is

What is the most successful class?

now, Hakaga may be one of the best, but it wasn't really succcesful. Thai Failed in ther main task, no matter the reasons, and they got mostly wiped out in one single campaign. no it is as far from succsesful as you can go, isn't it ??

 

[Dundradal]

Because if that's true then the Hakaga is the best class - it staged a major fleet breakthrough right to Confederation lines and hammered what little fleet they had left. They might have ultimately lost due to incompetent tactics, but ultimately, they succeeded in their established purpose, which was to give Kilrah a shot at earth.

Had Thrakhath had the full 12 instead of 5 he would have certainly forced through even the most suicidal of attacks.

On the other hand, the CVE's weren't really established to do behind the lines raiding. They were cheap and expendable and meant to be thrown away to supplement larger forces or escort transports. And yet - they smashed a shipyard and killed five carriers in drydock over Kilrah. An argument could be made that this class exceeded it's expectations.

But now we have a problem. The CVE is suddenly the best class because of the tactics that were used to advance it's purpose, while the Hakaga is worst class for exactly the same reason.

Actually high risk deep penetration raids were part of its established doctrine. It's four objectives were....start from ER....the Tarawa and other Wakes simply completed that objective with amazing results.

Fighter Transport: The transporting of fully assembled spacecraft from the factories to frontline units and installations.

Convoy Duty: Escorting convoys thereby freeing up other heavy ships for more important missions.

Space-to-Ground Support: Provide ground forces with close air support during secondary operations.

High Risk Deep Penetration Raids: CVEs are cheap and quick to build and above all else expendable and therefore ideally suited for high risk operations.

 

[frostytheplebe]

Had Thrakhath had the full 12 instead of 5 he would have certainly forced through even the most suicidal of attacks.

Would have, could have, probably should have. Thrakhath's over-confidence was his weakness. It seems like it runs in his family. We see it time and again.

now, Hakaga may be one of the best, but it wasn't really succcesful. Thai Failed in ther main task, no matter the reasons, and they got mostly wiped out in one single campaign. no it is as far from succsesful as you can go, isn't it ??

Case and point. I stand by my original choices. The Jutland (WCSTO) and Hakaga classes have proven disastrous.

The Hakagas mightiness was short lived.

The Jutlands, according to Standoff were destroyed as quickly as they were launched.

Meanwhile the Wakes appear to have quite the distinguished service record.

 

[Death]

While I have nothing but love (entirely platonic, thank you ) for the Standoff crew, please don't tell me you're citing them like canon...

Yeah, thanks to S*S some of what they've done has been canonized, so to speak, but their Jutland wasn't one of them.

And in regards to the Terra campaign meaning the Hakagas were the least successful class, you simply cannot dismiss the circumstances of those losses, like Mancubus does. Going by that notion, the loss of the Tiger's Claw at K'tithrak Mang means the Bengals were a failed class.

BTW, the Hagakas were not "mostly wiped out" in the Terra campaign. Five of the twelve were ready to go, and two (IIRC) managed to survive the suicide TCMC attacks. to return to Kilrathi space... after leaving a huge honking load of Terran Confederation Navy warships little more, at best, than air-bleeding wrecks. Even with the arrival of Landreich forces, had there been a few more Hakagas ready to go, Earth would probably be, bluntly, fucked. It just would have taken longer than it would have had the "dirty" bombardment of the original plan not been stopped.

 

[frostytheplebe]

Yeah, thanks to S*S some of what they've done has been canonized, so to speak, but their Jutland wasn't one of them.

And in regards to the Terra campaign meaning the Hakagas were the least successful class, you simply cannot dismiss the circumstances of those losses, like Mancubus does. Going by that notion, the loss of the Tiger's Claw at K'tithrak Mang means the Bengals were a failed class.
.

Well no, but we've used standoff as an example before, and I did specifically say Standoff's Jutland, hoping that would cover that base.

The whole argument against the Hakagas being the front runner for this prestigious award seems to be based on a lot of "would haves" and "what ifs."

The Hakagas WOULD HAVE blasted Earth had there been a few more of them. But their weren't. They didn't accomplish what they were sent in to do, and took heavily losses as a result. The fact that they inflicted heavy casualties, i don't see as relevant in this case, they were built to blast through the enemy fleet and take earth, they didn't. That to me at least puts them in the running.

They only failed in such a manner because they were attacked in a manner that in any other battle (and even during BoT) was pure suicide. The designers never thought about boarding actions. The Hakaga is designed to go into a slugging match with Confed forces and come out marginally operational.

I certainly think there is an argument to say they were the best war-time carrier put into service by either side because of their potential...even though it wasn't reached.

Good on paper yes. In action, no and that is what really matters I think. They weren't designed properly and as a result had a weakness that Confed exposed. To me that makes a good argument FOR IT being nominated right there. What it could have been, or what they should have done, I just don't see as relevant at all.

Do we have any other history on what the surviving Hakagas did though? If there is any more backstory to them, it could effect their placing one way or another.

 

[gevatter Lars]

Mh when talking about the performance of a ship I think you should take into account if they where "used" in the right way or not.

In the example of the Hakaga they where forced into action before the entire fleet was ready.
Still their presence on the battlefield forced confed to the desperate action of making suicide attacks.
I think that speaks much about the potential they had, if they where used in the right way.
Also even so they have taken out quite a number of confeds finest ships and crews, along with shipyards and stations.

So while the tactic/situation they have been used in was a failure in the end, the ships themself where pretty good.

Also prasing the Wakes that much isn't quite right. Its again how they where used.
IIRC the Kilrathi where not prepared for the raids so deep inside their territory. So the Wakes didn't encounter much of a resistance. Beeing sucessfull when nobody is there to hurt you isn't that much of a difficulty.
Also I think I read that after the Kilrathi adapted to that style many of the Wakes where lost and ordered back into confed space where they served as fighter transports and escorts but not anymore for raids.

About the Jutland. What sources do we have about them except that they where build, thanks to StarSoldiers.

 

[frostytheplebe]

Worst - Lexington class. Undoubtedly, we can infer that such a ship would have been extremely expensive to construct in order to survive the type of mission intended. The lead ship of the class failed to complete the assigned mission - ultimately too complex and costly to be justified as as a traditional frontline carrier.

I can't agree with you here. Simply because we know close to nothing about the class other than one ship went... missing.

We know it made it to Kilrah to drop of the Temblor party, and build the asteroid bases. But other then that, what do we know?

You can't fault the entire class for the supposed failing of the class lead.

About the Jutland. What sources do we have about them except that they where build, thanks to StarSoldiers.

None cept for the Standoff back story, which is why I worded it "Standoff's Jutland." Not canon, but in terms of a carrier that hasn't done well I think it fits the bill.

 

[Mancubus]

Ok I still think Hakaga was unsuccsesfull, as they had rather poor service record. You can't compare them with Claw, witch had a very long and succsesfull record before going down.

A parallell in real; life would be german Bismarck-class Battleships. Bism,arck was sunk during it's first operation, and evry operation in witch Tirpitz participated was a failure, so even though the ships themselves were quite formidable(it took an entire Allied fleet to take out Bismarck, and it lost few ships, and it took several air raids to sink the Tripitz), they failed to fulfill Hitler's hopes put in them.

Also, to evryone speaking of how far Hakagas pushed through Confed Space. Don't forget about the truce, and the fact, that most of the Confed fleet was mothballed at the time. Had they faced Confed's entire wartime fleet from before the Truce, even if all twelve were launched, it's quite possible they wouldn't even get to Warsaw

 

[gevatter Lars]

Does Standoff even explains how they where lost?
I haven't played Standoff yet as I am waiting for them to be finished and then play through it in one row.

 

[Dundradal]

None cept for the Standoff back story, which is why I worded it "Standoff's Jutland." Not canon, but in terms of a carrier that hasn't done well I think it fits the bill.

The name Jutland class actually comes from the WC Series Bible. I don't believe it's actually mentioned anywhere else. S*S doesn't mention either IIRC.

 

[frostytheplebe]

The name Jutland class actually comes from the WC Series Bible. I don't believe it's actually mentioned anywhere else. S*S doesn't mention either IIRC.

Well in that case, I stand corrected.

 

[Lorien]

One thing to remember with the Hakagas is that building them would have cost the Kilrathi Empire the war if Confed hadn't fallen for the False Truce, thanks to the secrecy and remote build location taking up a lot of the Empire's transport abilities. If they'd been built and used is the standard way, I'd almost think of them being too big. The Kilrathi were stripping other ships of fighters and pilots to fully stock them. Plenty of bang for a single location, but every stocked Hakaga means two carriers guarding other systems are under-manned. They worked brilliantly for the plan, but the plan left the Kilrathi very vulnerable both before and after the fight.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

The problem with this topic is that we know very little about any particular class, save the specific examples we serve on in the time we serve on them.

We don't know what the Confederation-class ships did, outside of three years on the Concordia. We don't know what the Concordia-class ships did outside of the original Concordia's few days in Action Stations and the pair seen in Wing Commander IV. The Bengal is the highly-honored Tiger's Claw and a bunch of little references to other ships... there's just no broad sense about any of these ship types.

Re: Hakagas. That statement stands. We don't know what the remaining Hakagas did between the Battle of Earth and the end of the war.

The name Jutland class actually comes from the WC Series Bible. I don't believe it's actually mentioned anywhere else. S*S doesn't mention either IIRC.

I believe it does, on the 'previous issues' page (on e of the old articles is about touring the last surviving Jutland museum ship, IIRC).

 

[Dundradal]

I believe it does, on the 'previous issues' page (on e of the old articles is about touring the last surviving Jutland museum ship, IIRC).

Oh yeah there it is....page 58.

Ghosts of the Vacuum - From Ghorah Khar to Vukar Tag the Jutland class carriers took the fight to the Kilrathi. We tour the last surviving example, the ex-TCS Philippine Sea, to see what held her together.

 

[frostytheplebe]

The problem with this topic is that we know very little about any particular class, save the specific examples we serve on in the time we serve on them.

We don't know what the Confederation-class ships did, outside of three years on the Concordia. We don't know what the Concordia-class ships did outside of the original Concordia's few days in Action Stations and the pair seen in Wing Commander IV. The Bengal is the highly-honored Tiger's Claw and a bunch of little references to other ships... there's just no broad sense about any of these ship types.

I have to agree here. We seem to be pitting a lot of blame or praised based on one or two ships... however we see the majority of the Hakaga class in the book, so I think this one is actually a debatable class.