WC1 - Brimstone 3 - Bronze Star for Killing Maniac!

Discussion in 'General Wing Commander Chat' started by LotsoRobbinBear, Apr 4, 2017.

  1. LotsoRobbinBear

    LotsoRobbinBear Spaceman

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    First I'd just like to thank the people who run this great site and forum, as well as all the people who participate in it. So much helpful information here for anyone wanting to get into the WC franchise. I played WCII long ago on my 486, never being able to get half the cinematics since I couldn't move my cursor across to the other side of the screen in the game menu (apparently it is a known problem related to mouse drivers, but I was 7 at the time and couldn't work out how to fix it lol). Anyway after long last I am playing through the entire series now from the start, and the CIC has been an incredibly useful resource (along with Wedge009.net and MISSIONS.WC from WCSAV).

    So I had a very strange experience that no information I could find on the internet could explain. I've searched the forums here and couldn't find anything directly relevant (so my apologies if this has been asked before and I missed it). I'm currently doing a 'losing campaign' play-through of WC1 (i.e. so I can play all the series you miss if you win all the time). I met the full victory conditions for Brimstone 1 & 2, but in order to lose the series I am not killing the Dorkir in Brimstone 3 (provided I can retreat from it before Maniac kills it).

    Now in trying to accomplish this, my aim was to get 8 kills (i.e. 2 Jalthis & 6 Krants) then get back to base, while keeping Maniac alive. However, on one of my attempts Maniac died before I could kill all the Krants, so I went back to base with the 8 kills (leaving the Dorkir alive) just to see what would happen. Of course I get dressed down by the Colonel for failing the mission (he didn't care about Maniac dying lol), however for my failures I am rewarded with both a Bronze Star and a promotion!

    This would be consistent with MISSIONS.WC that claims you will get a Bronze Star with 90 kill points, i.e. it is possible to get a Bronze Star without killing the Dorkir, provided that you kill everything else without Maniac getting any kills (2 Jalthis + 6 Krants = 2*15 + 6*10 = 90 kill points).

    So I attempted the mission again, managed to get the 8 kills and afterburn the hell away from the Dorkir so I could autopilot back to the Tiger Claw before Maniac has time to destroy it. While I don't see Maniac during the autopilot cinematic, he is flying around the Tiger Claw once I get there (as normal). I land on the Tiger Claw, Maniac is still alive, the Colonel is still pissed at me for failing the mission, I get promoted, however despite getting 8 kills I do not get a Bronze Star!

    Thinking it must be some sort of bug, I try again, this time killing Maniac after the Jalthis. I get my 8 kills and return to base, and once again I get a Bronze Star (this time no promotion, which I believe is supposed to be partially random). I try it again, keeping Maniac alive and getting my 8 kills, and once again no Bronze Star! (or promotion)

    So apparently if my wingman gets killed (potentially by me murdering them) that is 'meritorious conduct' worthy of a Bronze Star, but if I keep Maniac alive, then I get nothing!

    Does anyone have an explanation for this? It really doesn't make any sense at all, and I am curious why this occurs. I do not have a copy of Mark Minasi's "Secrets of the Wing Commander Universe" but maybe it has some relevant information if anyone with a copy could check. Anyway I just thought I'd put this 'phenomena' out there in case someone finds this information useful, since I have not seen anyone else on the internet mention it.

    Also some people in the Brimstone System comments of the CIC game guides (I'd link to it, but I need 10 posts first) mention that you can win the series by killing the Dorkir then ejecting, but I have tried doing this and have been unsuccessful. According to MISSIONS.WC, ejecting will lose all Victory Points earned in the mission, so this shouldn't be possible. Does anyone have an explanation for these comments or do we just assume that they are mistaken?
     
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  2. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation!

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    Very interesting!

    I checked Secrets, no help there.

    I believe the comments about destroying the Dorkir and ejecting are incorrect, I have never been able to do this.

    I am wondering if perhaps you have stumbled on a long lost Easter egg! Recall that in Brimstone 1 Colonel Halcyon gives you permission to shoot down Maniac if he disobeys... what if the game actually rewards you for doing that? We could figure out a few test cases to see if that is accurate...
     
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  3. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation!

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    Okay, I have been down the rabbit hole and I have concluded that you've discovered a 27 year old egg.

    First, I did a baseline test using McAuliffe 2, the first Ralari strike mission.

    MISSIONS.WC claims you need 65 KP to win the medal. I killed the Dralthi (10x4) and the Ralari (25) and ran home. Got the medal. Then I flew the same mission but also killed Paladin (argh.) The result? No medal. That should happen per MISSIONS.WC, since I would be at 64 points (-1 for losing a wingman.) I did a little additional testing, just to give this all some background. I found that killing one or both of the Tiger's Claw's escorts (argh) did not impact my score at all; I recieved the medal whether or not they were alive.

    One interesting note is that I found one mistake in MISSIONS.WC here: I also tried killing Paladin (argh!) with MORE points, just in case losing him had more of an impact than MISSIONS thought. What I found was that losing Paladin and scoring 75 points did NOT give me the medal but that losing Paladin and scoring 85 points DID. Cases:

    60 points = NO
    65 points = YES
    65 points+Paladin = NO
    75 points+Paladin = NO
    85 points+Paladin = YES

    That tells me that losing your wingman is not -1 points but is instead -10 or -15. By further testing the Dakota slaughter-Dralthi mission, I determined that it is -10 (sorry, Angel!)

    Then I loaded up your mission, Brimstone 2. I found everything exactly as you described and then tested the following possibilities:

    75 points = NO
    75 points+Maniac = NO
    80 points+Maniac = NO
    85 points = NO
    85 points+Maniac = YES
    90 points = NO
    95 points = YES
    90 points+Maniac = YES
    105 points = YES
    105 points+Maniac = YES

    First of all: MISSIONS.WC is wrong. 90 points (with a wingman) does not give you a medal. Scenarios that give you 95 (with a wingman) DO give you the medal. The requirement for the mission must be 95 and not 90. Then, exactly what you've found is correct: killing Maniac gives you MORE kill points. As you can see from the different cases above, killing Maniac gives you +10 points towards the medal instead of -10!

    Next, I tested CHARON 1, the only other mission where you can win a medal with Maniac. I found that in the Secret Missions 2 executable, killing Maniac is back to the expected -10. I also found that MISSIONS.WC is completely off, and the score to win the Medal of Valor is just 105 points!
     
  4. YPersonified

    YPersonified Petty Officer

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    I'd like to share couple of things I know regarding this chat.

    First, there are things I've learned about Medal Conditions in Wing Commander from CAMP.000 gamedat file using WC Toolbox.

    Code:
    
    Series  5: Wingman: 6; Cutscene:  1; Success Score: 25; Success Series:  7; Success Ship:  3; Failure Series:  8; Failure Ship:  2
        Mission 0: Decoration: 0; Decoration Score: 2000; Navigation Point Scoring: 3,3,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
        Mission 1: Decoration: 1; Decoration Score:  100; Navigation Point Scoring: 0,2,10,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
        Mission 2: Decoration: 0; Decoration Score:   91; Navigation Point Scoring: 0,10,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
        Mission 3: Decoration: 0; Decoration Score:    0; Navigation Point Scoring: 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
    
    
    Based on the CAMP script and MISSIONS.WC, medals are awarded when KP reaches 'Decoration Score' listed above. As for Series 5 Mission 1, which is Brimstone 2, you'll get a Silver Star if you reach 100 KPs, but I've never seen the ceremony at all.
    Success score seems to be related to the 'Navigation Points Scoring,' which, I believe, can be earned by touching Nav Points, defending or destroying targets.


    Second, about Brimstone 3 ejection thing, I tried and it DID happen. I completed all three missions flawlessly; bagged all enemy fighters including Khajja, kept Exeter and Maniac alive, and destroyed Dorkir.
    One difference is that I ejected just ahead of the Claw, a second before my landing sequence. Reassigned, decorated and saw winning cutscene. You can still lose the series if you eject right after blowing Dorkir up.
     
  5. LeHah

    LeHah 212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"

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    I don't know how this slipped past. The game is literally telling you something there... (Then again, it took me to trying to re-calibrate my joystick for 10 minutes before realizing Blair was flying drunk in WC3...)
     
  6. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation!

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    Interesting - CAMP tells me there are SIX medals not listed in MISSIONS.WC... but each time, there aren't enough kill points in the mission to achieve them. This is kind of strange, since there's clearly a different way to set it to 'no value' (a Bronze Star set to 2000.) It's possible that there was some other way to achieve points that was cut from the game, or that these missions were changed to have fewer targets.

    Brimstone 2
    Silver Star for 100 KP (93 possible)
    Port Hedland 1
    Silver Star for 185 KP (130 possible)
    Venice 2
    Gold Star for 190 KP (178 possible)
    Hell's Kitchen 1
    Bronze Star for 160 KP (138 possible)
    Hell's Kitchen 3
    Silver Star for 161 KP (100 possible)
    Hell's Kitchen 4
    Medal of Valor for 220 KP (218 possible)
     
  7. Sharpshooter

    Sharpshooter Rear Admiral

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    I have gotten the Medal of Valor in Hell's Kitchen 4 before, however I do believe it's only possible to get it if you kill several aces (possibly all four of them) during the mission (so that means not killing them in previous missions, in order to make them show up in Hell's Kitchen 4).
     
  8. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation!

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    Huh, just gave it a shot - no medal, even with killing all the aces. (Which actually would've helped explain Brimstone 3, if you got additional points for killing Khajja...)
     
  9. Sharpshooter

    Sharpshooter Rear Admiral

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    If that helps, I believe you need to destroy every ship (or nearly every ship) without letting your wingman have any kills. Also, I was using the DOS version of WC1 at the time, so I'm not sure whether it would work with the KS version.

    (Mind you, it's been years since I last tried this, so I think I'll give it a shot later on.)
     
  10. LotsoRobbinBear

    LotsoRobbinBear Spaceman

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    Thanks Bandit LOAF for investigating. Very appreciated! I completely forgot about the Colonel's 'joke' about shooting Maniac to pieces, but that all makes sense now.

    However just one point of clarification. If losing your wingman is -10 points, then shouldn't getting 75 points and killing Paladin still get you a medal on McAuliffe 2? (which requires 65 KP via MISSIONS.WC.) If you ruled out it being -15, then perhaps it is somewhere from -11 to -14 points?

    Also thanks YPersonified and Bandit LOAF for the CAMP medal conditions, very interesting. I suppose Brimstone 2 would be possible to get 103 KP (for the required 100 KP) if you kill Maniac for an extra 10 KP to go with the 93 possible, so that might be where the egg is at its most glorious.

    Quite amazed that you can keep your VP by ejecting just before you land. Would that almost be an egg as well? In terms of the in-game universe, wouldn't the ship get landed safely due to the 'automatic landing sequence'? (or was that not invented before WC2?)

    For Hell's Kitchen 4, I killed every enemy ship, although all the aces were already killed in previous missions. I did not get a medal. Perhaps it's because I sent Hunter back to base during the Salthi wave so he wouldn't steal my kills. This was also the DOS version, so maybe my version of the game is different to Sharpshooter's. This might explain why the enemy waves I encounter are occasionally inconsistent with those listed on the CIC game guides.
     
  11. Sharpshooter

    Sharpshooter Rear Admiral

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    All right, so I've just tried it with WC Origin -k (cheat mode + invulnerability). I used the GOG version of WC1. Here's what I did :

    -I took out the Gratha and the Ralari without using ALT-Del. Hunter was there, but I did not let him kill anything (I told him "Keep formation!").
    -I took out the Salthis and Bhurak without using ALT-Del. Hunter got between me and the Salthis at the beginning of the fight. I accidentally fired a few shots that hit him, then he died (I'm not sure who killed him - could have been me, could have been the Salthis - Bhurak did say "Your friend provided me with little amusement").
    -I took out the Dralthis and Dakhath without using ALT-Del.
    -I took out the Jalthis and Baktosh without using ALT-Del.
    -As for the final fight, I was afraid that I wouldn't manage to destroy the Krants before they destroyed the Tiger's Claw (it's been a long time since I last played WC1, and I'm feeling a little rusty), so I used Alt-Del on all of them except Khajja. I then killed Khajja the normal way.

    I landed on the Tiger's Claw and got the Medal of Valor despite the fact that Hunter died. Go figure.

    I may try it later without cheating... It may take me a lot of tries to get it right though.
     
  12. Mekt-Hakkikt

    Mekt-Hakkikt Mpanty's bane

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    Very interesting read here, even though I am a bit late to it. Thumbs up to all investigators!
     
  13. Ragger

    Ragger Spaceman

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    if anyone learns more on how to get any of these, obviously share here/reply plz
     
  14. UnnamedCharacter

    UnnamedCharacter Master Chief Petty Officer

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    Within the WCToolbox thread I have a small tool (WC1LiveViewer) to view live game data. It might help understand what is going on.

    Check out the last post of that thread.
     
  15. Ragger

    Ragger Spaceman

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    I'm currently trying to figure out how to achieve the silver star on Brimstone 2. I looked a bit at the thread and it looks cool but I'm kinda lost. Have you seen anything from that program that explains how to unlock an extra 7-10 medal points for that mission? Does Maniac have to be killed by the enemy?
     
  16. Ragger

    Ragger Spaceman

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    I've tried killing Maniac at Brimstone 2. Even made sure he was disobeying my orders to remain in formation. I haven't successfully had him killed by the enemy or an asteroid yet, so maybe that might work. Or maybe if he shots me first (Maniac shoots you if you're between him an his target). Did you ever learn how to get this medal?
     
  17. Ragger

    Ragger Spaceman

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    From what you know then, the Brimstone Silver Star can't be achieved?
     

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