WC 3 and WC 4 remake

Dyret

Super Carrot!
If you want wc4 it would probably be a better idea to make a unique story set during the BW conflict like Saga, Standoff, and UE did with "their" eras... It's easier, and more interesting. I know I would love to see the whole conflict from confed's perspective! :)
 

Sphynx

Commodore
I have had my doubts about the 'movie projects'... but we have recieved permission to host them (with some limitations - they can't have *all* the video from the game, for instance.) They also don't really compete with the games - with all respect to Queeg and company, nobody cares about the Wing Commander IV video if they haven't already played the game.

Actually, the one where we ran into the most trouble was the Wing Commander Prophecy DVD materials.... since they included *all* the video from the game. I felt very strongly that we had to get that out, though, because there was no other way to have it available (EA doesn't even have the game in their archive, so it's unlikely to appear in the future). Nevertheless, we had to develop them as a 'patch' for the CD-ROM game rather than just extracting an image of the DVD.

So, as a point of curiosity, under the conditions that were agreed to would it be allowable to use those video clips in a campaign if only those video clips which were used for the WC3 or WCIV movie projects were used, and not all the video from the game?

I can totally understand why the WC:p DVD was more complicated, but I have to say that the work around is quite clever. I'm glad they agreed to it.

Also, I do have to say I would be interested in what Dyret proposed. I would also be interested in a Border World campaign set during the WC3 timeline to show that conflict from their perspective. There really are a lot of options out there, which is why I hope to see more fan missions released: to spark creativity and explore these possibilities.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
So, as a point of curiosity, under the conditions that were agreed to would it be allowable to use those video clips in a campaign if only those video clips which were used for the WC3 or WCIV movie projects were used, and not all the video from the game?

This isn't the Supreme Court setting setting precedence - you would have to work with their PR people regarding your specific project. My gut says that somebody making their own version fo WC3, however different, is going to interfere with the fact that EA now hopes to sell WC3 in various forms in the immediate future.

I can totally understand why the WC:p DVD was more complicated, but I have to say that the work around is quite clever. I'm glad they agreed to it.

There was no way we were going to take no for an answer on WCPDVD - those three big downloads represent eight years of searching and a heck of a lot of resources...

Also, I do have to say I would be interested in what Dyret proposed. I would also be interested in a Border World campaign set during the WC3 timeline to show that conflict from their perspective. There really are a lot of options out there, which is why I hope to see more fan missions released: to spark creativity and explore these possibilities.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. The Union of Border Worlds didn't exist at that time... in fact, WC3 *is* a 'Border Worlds' campaign. The game is set in that region of space and involves the same characters who end up flying for the Union when it's formed after the war.
 

Sphynx

Commodore
You bring up some good poitns. I suppose that if they are indeed going to start reselling WC3, they probably would not be all that thrilled about someone trying to remake it.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. The Union of Border Worlds didn't exist at that time... in fact, WC3 *is* a 'Border Worlds' campaign. The game is set in that region of space and involves the same characters who end up flying for the Union when it's formed after the war.

Sorry, my mistake. I was mixing up my chronology. It's been a long week at work. :)
 

Mancubus

Rear Admiral
I'm not sure exactly what you mean. The Union of Border Worlds didn't exist at that time... in fact, WC3 *is* a 'Border Worlds' campaign. The game is set in that region of space and involves the same characters who end up flying for the Union when it's formed after the war.

"many people thinks it was the Border Worlds that kept us i the war long enough for colonel here to lower the boom" This qoute from Vagabond suggests that BW (perhaps BW miltia) was involved in the war. personally I always thought that BW achieved during the war status similar to this of 13 colonies (later founder states of the U.S.) during Seven Years' War. but this is no place for this discussion
Also, wasn't Intrepid refitted as Carrier during Kilrathi war? that would mean that BW militia had at least one carrier and it could make interesting scenario (I'd love to fly WCIV Banshee against the cats)
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
"many people thinks it was the Border Worlds that kept us i the war long enough for colonel here to lower the boom" This qoute from Vagabond suggests that BW (perhaps BW miltia) was involved in the war. personally I always thought that BW achieved during the war status similar to this of 13 colonies (later founder states of the U.S.) during Seven Years' War. but this is no place for this discussion

That's referring to the Border Worlds in the geographic sense - the star systems on the border. If you look at the WCU Map you'll see that the Union of Border Worlds is made up of many of the Confederation systems we defended in the original trilogy of games - places like Loki, Kurasawa, Dakota and Canewdon.

Your analogy is fairly good and I've actually used it before. The actual Union of Border Worlds was formed from colonies of the Terran Confederation... the actual star nation is formed during Wing Commander IV. From a cutscene in the Masa System: "In our lead story, we’ll be talking to Admiral Tolwyn of the SRA regarding the escalating tensions between the frontier worlds and the Confederation. The Union of Border Worlds, as they now call themselves, indicate they remain at peace with the Confederation, but that Confed by-laws and constitution no longer govern them."

The analogy breaks down a little bit in the sense that the American colonies fought their portion of the war largely independantly of the conflict in Europe. In Wing Commander the war itself was fought *in* the Border Worlds (and their Kilrathi equivalents) *by* the Confederation.

Also, wasn't Intrepid refitted as Carrier during Kilrathi war? that would mean that BW militia had at least one carrier and it could make interesting scenario (I'd love to fly WCIV Banshee against the cats)

No, the Intrepid was the former *TCS* Delphi (a Heavy Destroyer). Tolwyn notes in the WC4 novelization that only the fact that the Border Worlds had put a carrier into service in 2673 would be grounds for the Confederation to go to war...
 

gevatter Lars

Vice Admiral
Reminds me of the Landreich. Is it know where they stand?
From what I remember the Landreich was an independet system or two and is it till WC3. When the Union of Borderworlds is formed has the Landreich become a part of it or is it still independend?

Aynway haveing a story around the Landreich or a borderworld pilot (WC3 borderworld planet or a WC4 UBW) could be interesting. Do we know when the fighters we see in WC4 where put into service?
I could imagne that the Banshee was an older design that was allready in use during the Kilrathi war and was the pendant for the Arrow and Hellcat for local system defance. Haveing just one type of fighter instead of the two for larger military operations.
The Vindicator was kind of new IIRC and the Avenger was also a "newer" design beeing a modified shuttle.

Beside the nice idea their is still the problem that the models would have to be done. I think we have older Banshee and a Avenger models. A Durango should be easy to build..in both variations...but I doubt that we will get to do these anytime soon. Our first priority is to get the rest of the ships we need for the main release done.
But keep your ideas alive. When time comes their might be some of these things possible.

As for ideas...I was allways interested in telling the Kilrathi war from the view of a Kilrathi pilot. Even if we all know the outcome of the war it could be interesting I think.
 

Mancubus

Rear Admiral
Beside the nice idea their is still the problem that the models would have to be done. I think we have older Banshee and a Avenger models. A Durango should be easy to build..in both variations...but I doubt that we will get to do these anytime soon. Our first priority is to get the rest of the ships we need for the main release done.
But keep your ideas alive. When time comes their might be some of these things possible.

It's great. It will be nice to see some of these projects when they are done.
As for me, right now I'm working on the short (3 missions) Campagin using all the great stuff you've already rleased :) I even have one mission almost done...
I wander if there is anyone wishing to beta-test it. I dont want to release it to more people untill everthing (all 3 missions and some background stuff) will be completed, but on the other hand I'd be glad to hear what bugs i have not found.. :D
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Reminds me of the Landreich. Is it know where they stand?
From what I remember the Landreich was an independet system or two and is it till WC3. When the Union of Borderworlds is formed has the Landreich become a part of it or is it still independend?

The Landreich is not part of the Union of Border Worlds - it's referred to as an ally in the TPoF novelization. The Landreich was a sepaate nation durin (much of) the war: it declared independence in 2650.

Aynway haveing a story around the Landreich or a borderworld pilot (WC3 borderworld planet or a WC4 UBW) could be interesting. Do we know when the fighters we see in WC4 where put into service?
I could imagne that the Banshee was an older design that was allready in use during the Kilrathi war and was the pendant for the Arrow and Hellcat for local system defance. Haveing just one type of fighter instead of the two for larger military operations.
The Vindicator was kind of new IIRC and the Avenger was also a "newer" design beeing a modified shuttle.

We don't really know anything about the WC4 fighters - at all. They don't get histories in the Official Guide and they don't appear anywhere else... other than a brief shot of an Avenger apparently acting as an SAR craft (for pirates) in an episode of Wing Commander Academy. We know that Confed had lots of similar-role fighters, though... there was never a time when Hellcats and Arrows were the only fighters around.
 

gevatter Lars

Vice Admiral
So you think it would be storywise ok if we say that during the Kilrathi War there where Banshees, Vindicators and Avengers for smaller planetary defences in small numbers?
The Banshee looked like a cheap to build fighter using proven technology. The Avenger is a converted shuttle or SAR craft so its also some kind of a cheaper ship.
Only the Vindicator seams to be a bit newer.

But if there are realy no infos then they could be build and used anywhere. Are there any upcomming infos from Arenas manual that aren't know so far...at least not to the public. You seams to have some more infos about this than most people do.
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
But if there are realy no infos then they could be build and used anywhere. Are there any upcomming infos from Arenas manual that aren't know so far...at least not to the public. You seams to have some more infos about this than most people do.

There's more than fifty pages that haven't made their way online yet, so the answer's yes.

From the pages we have seen so far, the Landreich is still around in 2701.
 

Cardinal

Spaceman
My two cents

I've arrived a bit late into this discussion, but I still wanted to add some thoughts. I think that it would be much more rewarding in the long run to come up with your own missions, rather than rehash an existing game. Issues with EA aside, there are several examples where a remake doesn't provide the satisfaction to the player or the coder.

A case in point is the aforementioned Privateer Remake. At first I was thrilled about this project. Then I got to a mission (one of the Rygannon ones near the end of the first storyline) where you immediately get swarmed by several Gothri and a Kamekh as soon as you enter the system. Normally this wouldn't be so bad for such an ace pilot as myself :D, but they included the asteroid field (like in the original game), and my frame rate turned to crap - and I don't think my computer is that obsolete. Even on the lowest graphics settings, I couldn't even jump back to the previous system before being destroyed. I dropped the game right there. Today, my opinion of the remake isn't quite as harsh as LOAF's, but it's pretty close.

There are plenty of storylines apart from the games which haven't had missions designed for them. Take the WC novels, for example. When Standoff announced they were doing the Fleet Action novel I was ecstatic. That was one of my favorite non-playable storylines of the war, and somehow, they made it even better. But there are still plenty of other plots out there. Just off the top of my head:

1) Tarawa's run to Kilrah. Ranks right up there with Fleet Action as one of my favorite storylines.
2) The Confed ambush at Vukar Tag. The other side of the coin. End Run gives the conflict only a couple of pages. There's plenty of material to expound upon there.
3) False Colors. A pilot based off the Independence battling the Kats. Beating up a dreadnought would rank right up there with taking down a Hakaga.
4) Action Stations. This would require much more effort, as you'd need all new fighters - does anyone even know what a Wildcat looks like? At the very least, you'd need to code up a Scimitar and possibly a Raptor. It's been a while since I read it, so I only mention it in passing.

On the other hand, any of these would require an effort of Standoff or Saga proportions to really make the community happy; I'm betting that's probably one of the reasons that they haven't been attempted yet. It would likely be best to gauge your level of interest through a small three or four mission storyline that wouldn't encompass the grandiose plots above. I'd recommend either the time between the first and second Enigma campaigns or the WC3 period. The latter period would probably be better, since the Saga team is apparently willing to let you use their ships. In fact, Saga partially inspired to start writing a story set in same period. I'm beginning to find out that writing also requires an effort of the same proportions, but that's for another thread.

Granted, I have zero experience in game programming, other than a couple of Adventure!-style games for a CS course and some maps for the apparently abandoned PiArmada that were never used. I haven't looked at Saga's mission creator, so I don't know how user-friendly it is. You'll just have to determine that for yourself.

Anyway, good luck in your coding efforts.
 

Eder

Mr. Standoff
When Standoff announced they were doing the Fleet Action novel I was ecstatic. That was one of my favorite non-playable storylines of the war, and somehow, they made it even better.
There's nothing that a few film noir elements can't improve. :p
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
So you think it would be storywise ok if we say that during the Kilrathi War there where Banshees, Vindicators and Avengers for smaller planetary defences in small numbers?
The Banshee looked like a cheap to build fighter using proven technology. The Avenger is a converted shuttle or SAR craft so its also some kind of a cheaper ship.
Only the Vindicator seams to be a bit newer.

But if there are realy no infos then they could be build and used anywhere. Are there any upcomming infos from Arenas manual that aren't know so far...at least not to the public. You seams to have some more infos about this than most people do.

There's no history on the WC4 Border WOrlds fighters in the Arena manual. We *may* get official designations on them from another source... but no specific history.

You can probably put them anywhere you want in a fan story - it's doubtful anyone will establish backgrounds for them (though possible - after all, who would have guessed there'd be a new WC manual ever?).

One, I believe, wasn't it?...

Maybe at first (in 2650)... but by Fleet Action (2668) the Landreich consisted of "eight major colony worlds and a number of outposts and settlements."
 

Ricochet

Spaceman
Aynway haveing a story around the Landreich or a borderworld pilot (WC3 borderworld planet or a WC4 UBW) could be interesting. Do we know when the fighters we see in WC4 where put into service?

I had a very ambitious idea for a story that was based on this :)

Which brings me to a question that's been bugging me for a while: How does wc community feel about fan created alternate wc future?
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Which brings me to a question that's been bugging me for a while: How does wc community feel about fan created alternate wc future?

Well, we'd have to know what that was first. A 'theoretical' future past Arena or some sort of fanboy 'what if Sonic the Hedgehog flew Rapiers?' type deal?

My first question would be - why? The point of telling a story in someone elses universe is that you like the rules they've created... if you've simply decided those are unacceptable (like the Privateer scuzzballs) then create your own setting. If Wing Commander is just an excuse to not have to do your own creative work then we aren't much interested.

At the same time, there's ample room for an 'alternate' story within the setting itself. Wing Commander has always involved different possible paths... the 'What If?'-style alternate history stories practically write themselves. What if the Kilrathi won the war? What if Tolwyn had died at Earth? What if Blair had never proved himself loyal? Etc. None of those things are a blank check to rewrite continuity - rather, they're a mandate to fit your story in with the established lore *especially* well in order to make it work.
 

Ricochet

Spaceman
I guess it has a lot to do with a personal appeal. The what if's might be interesting, but (for example) to me are less interesting than any sort of original add on to the depth of the story/universe.

Story placed in a future of an already created universe doesn't necessarily have to break rules of said universe, right?

Actually rewriting the rules would actually be more tied to the remaking some parts or "what if" type of story.

I was not talking about redoing the past of wing commander but simply using all that has happened in all the current games as an immensely rich background of the story. It can give a lot of inspiration to anyone, why not use that?

What makes a creative person that gets paid for doing official storyline different from a creative person that makes it for free unofficially? Are the ideas of the first automatically better than the ideas of the other?
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
I was not talking about redoing the past of wing commander but simply using all that has happened in all the current games as an immensely rich background of the story. It can give a lot of inspiration to anyone, why not use that?

What you're describing is what every fan fiction should be. That's no more a "what-if scenario" or "alternate reality" than anything any fan writer writes.

What makes a creative person that gets paid for doing official storyline different from a creative person that makes it for free unofficially?

Talent, or at least experience. A writer for a commercial product has to consider his entire audience instead of the small hardcore segment that fan writers often cater to.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
What makes a creative person that gets paid for doing official storyline different from a creative person that makes it for free unofficially? Are the ideas of the first automatically better than the ideas of the other?

No - people make this mistake too often... being a canonical story and being good are two separate measures which (sometimes) don't even meet. The difference between a canonical work and fan fiction is in intent andeffect and not in quality (though in separate practice, professional writers do turn out professional-quality writing with more regularity than an group of fans). A Wing Commander novel is written with the idea that all future stories will refer to it, a fan fiction is written without that requirement. That's the only difference.
 
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