Vectored Thrust, Aerodynamics, Cloaking

[Fatcat]

I have three questions:

Do all ships in Wing Commander have vectored thrust, or some kind of internal artificial gravity generator? If they do have some kind of vectored thrust, like a Harrier, then why can't we see exhaust ports? What causes the admittably unrealistic movement in zero gravity, or is it just limitations placed to enhance game quality?

Also, ships like the Hellcat and Excalibur are supposed to be atmosphere-capable. Especially with the Excalibur, neither are very aerodynamic. Do they have VTOL capabilities and/or vectored thrust?(The video after rescuing Dr. Sevrin and in the beginning to Wc4 both show the Hellcat taking off vertically.)

Finally, I have heard that there is some mention of Confed ships cloaking in WcP. (Something about the cloaking not throwing the Nephilim) Is this true?

 

[SabreAce]

Here's the quote for the WCP cloaking mention:

Stiletto: Just stay cloaked until we work out if they’re friendly.
Maestro: Um… they’re shooting at me. Guess they’re not friendly.
Stiletto: Activate your cloaking device, Maestro!
Maestro: I am using my cloaking device, thank you very much. Must be broken.
Stiletto: Hey! What? They’re shooting at me, too!
Stiletto: Watch it, kids! They can see through our cloaking somehow!

 

[Iceman16]

Finally, I have heard that there is some mention of Confed ships cloaking in WcP. (Something about the cloaking not throwing the Nephilim) Is this true?

The scene that mentioned this was taken out of Prophecy before it shipped, no ship can cloak ingame but they do have cloaking devices from what Ive heard.

 

[Youngblood]

As far as i know all fighters have VTOL capability but as far as thrust is concerned lets face it wing commander isn't very realistic when it comes to how the fighters would maneuver in space or the capships for that matter! if you want a good realistic game try B5 Ive found her. its great! www.ifh.firstones.com

I have a question related to capships why do they move so slow?? lets face it, it cant be because of the weight as there is none in space I'm guessing its a safety thing cause of the size but surely they can move faster?

 

[BradMick]

near as i can tell, the reason the WC ships fly the way they do is because of their fuel/maneuvering scoops. as the ship zips around its collecting hydrogen and what not which creates drag which allows the ship to manuever and fly the way it does. if those scoops are turned off, then its pure newtonian physics.

 

[Fatcat]

near as i can tell, the reason the WC ships fly the way they do is because of their fuel/maneuvering scoops. as the ship zips around its collecting hydrogen and what not which creates drag which allows the ship to manuever and fly the way it does. if those scoops are turned off, then its pure newtonian physics.

But there aren't enough random particles floating around to stop a huge fighter going at tremendous speeds.

I would also like to ask: what is the speed indicator showing? Like how a Longbow can cruise at 350. 350 what? I've seen Kps, but that is so unbelievably fast that trying to land at 100 would be impossible and you'd zip by stationary objects.

 

[ChrisReid]

I have a question related to capships why do they move so slow?? lets face it, it cant be because of the weight as there is none in space I'm guessing its a safety thing cause of the size but surely they can move faster?

There's virtually no weight, but there's lots of mass.

 

[TurboTim07]

I would also like to ask: what is the speed indicator showing? Like how a Longbow can cruise at 350. 350 what? I've seen Kps, but that is so unbelievably fast that trying to land at 100 would be impossible and you'd zip by stationary objects.

i think, im pretty sure anyway, that when in battles or near the vicinity of other ships then the speed and distance indicator should be read in meters and not kilometers. if you play WC1 you'll see that when you target fighters and ships it uses meters and nav points are in km

 

[BradMick]

But there aren't enough random particles floating around to stop a huge fighter going at tremendous speeds.

trying to slap real world stuff onto WC is a bit silly. WC hasn't exactly emphasized the most realistic in so far as its flight model and what not goes. i mean, if you want to get all techinical about it...the hellcat should never be able to fly in an atmosphere, or the vindicator for that matter. but they do. So i try not to worry to much about 'there aren't enough particles in space to slow a fighter down'. It's the way it's explained in the novels, so its good enough for me. besides, its science fiction. not science reality.

 

[Fatcat]

trying to slap real world stuff onto WC is a bit silly.

True. I was just curious as to Wing Commander's explanation, which is good enough, and doesn't distract me from the gameplay.

 

[Haesslich]

True. I was just curious as to Wing Commander's explanation, which is good enough, and doesn't distract me from the gameplay.

Short answer - they have antigrav (which is how the Hellcats lifted off on Nephele), they have artificial gravity (which is why you can see them sitting down normally in the games) and offshoots of that technology allow for intertial compensation (as referenced in Action Stations, End Run, and False Colors - which notes that a larger gravity field can cancel out the local-scale effects that a compensator uses).

Scoop fields are pretty wide, and apparently there's enough matter out there to be used to power the ship's systems, which is why they have atmospheric-style maneuvering, as mentioned repeatedly in the novels. The only time a Newtonian flight model is used is when you autoslide - which lets you move along a certain vector while rotating your own ship without changing said vector.

 

[DyNaMiX]

I like the "realistic" flight model of the movie. The fighters bank and fly as if they do here. I'd say it's all the positioning of thrusters. The main driving force comes from the engines (hence you're able todo shelton slides etc) but there are thrusters all about the ship in order to allow full rotation and movement in all 3 axis.

Hence when a ship is flying straight and level in space, the force is from the engines . You can then either bank to the right and pull up to turn right or you can slip yaw to the right (in space obviously yawing make it possible to turn). The thrusters won't change velocity in one step, hence a sharp right turn will propely you to the right, but you'll be moving sideways momentarily as the force from the engines (now perpendicular to the original direction of motion) will head off in the new direction.

One way I've always thought of it is basically the fighters are almost "ice skating" in space.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Do all ships in Wing Commander have vectored thrust, or some kind of internal artificial gravity generator? If they do have some kind of vectored thrust, like a Harrier, then why can't we see exhaust ports? What causes the admittably unrealistic movement in zero gravity, or is it just limitations placed to enhance game quality?

Also, ships like the Hellcat and Excalibur are supposed to be atmosphere-capable. Especially with the Excalibur, neither are very aerodynamic. Do they have VTOL capabilities and/or vectored thrust?(The video after rescuing Dr. Sevrin and in the beginning to Wc4 both show the Hellcat taking off vertically.)

Tangent: the idea that ships are and are not 'atmosphere capable' has been very overblown.

I think it's a result of two things:

* Halcyon's warning in the Firekka 3 briefing: "And under no conditions are you to engage in combat in the planetary atmosphere. Our fighters aren’t equipped for planetary overpressure. One close call with an enemy missile, and the pressure differential will explode your ship." For one thing, it's a tacit admission that the Rapier IIs on the Tiger's Claw can be equipped for planetary overpressure... but even moreso, consider what a bizarre quote this is. Clearly there's something unique about this situation that's different from the 71 other Wing Commander I briefings. Perhaps they're new Rapiers that haven't been configured yet? Who knows -- but imagine it in a modern context... if the Rapiers can *never* fly in an atmosphere, would you ever remind pilots of this? "By the way, be sure not to fly your F-16 under water today... "

* Space limitations in Wing Commander III and IV. The 'atmospheric' missions all involve specific 'in' and 'out' pre-rendered cutscenes... and so the game limits you to one specific ship. It's not continuous, though. Wing Commander IV's Confed 'atmosphere' ship is the Hellcat V... which Wing Commander III specifically *doesn't* let you fly. Your inability to select a Longbow, Banshee, Bearcat or Avenger in atmosphere missions isn't the game saying these fighters can't be flown in an atmosphere (in fact, we see Longbows in an atmosphere on WCA!)

Are there exceptions? Yes! We are specifically told that the F-117 Rapier (the movie Rapier, wags) can't fly in the atmosphere... but that's really the only one that comes to mind.

(In response to your actual question, yes, the ships have VTOl capabilities -- you can hover in one place in a WCIII/WCIV atmosphere mission.)

Finally, I have heard that there is some mention of Confed ships cloaking in WcP. (Something about the cloaking not throwing the Nephilim) Is this true?

Yes and no. There's a scene cut from the game and quoted above. Since it was cut, we can't assume that all ships are constantly maintaining cloaking devices...

... but the idea that the Nephilim 'see through' cloaks is heavily implied in the ICIS Manual, when a series of Excaliburs is sent to recon the Kilrah System... and six of them are destroyed. We can't confirm that the first six were cloaked when they were hit, but it seems likely since we know they were cloak-capable recon ships specifically charged with reporting on what was going on.

 

[Bombadier]

Fatcat,
Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems as if most WC settings are relatively close to solar systems. So there would be more particles of hydrogen and whatever else for the scoop fields to impact against/or collect. Not saying its 100% realistic but it would explain why they use hydrogen scoops and not anti-matter drives on all their spacecraft.

 

[Fatcat]

Ok, so the general rule is that the ships maintain an artificial gravity field which allows the ship to avoid the limitations of Newtonian physics. The particle scoops allow for extra maneuverability in space. This antigrav field can be manipulated to produce identical performance in atmosphere, but only certain ships are pressurizd properly to fly in an atmosphere, and ships like the Hellcat and Excalibur are more aerodynamic than say the Longbow. (And Academy should never be used to reference anything, since it was so wildly innacurate.)

I have a question related to capships why do they move so slow?? lets face it, it cant be because of the weight as there is none in space I'm guessing its a safety thing cause of the size but surely they can move faster?

There's virtually no weight, but there's lots of mass.

Exactly. There is still Inertia in space, and it takes a lot of energy to shove around a huge capship. Also, if the engines were too powerful, the ship would be ripped apart because its structual strength is not enough to withstand that many Gs. Even with Antigravity/Gravity fields, which take even more energy from the engines, you would also have to accommodate for the human passengers and make sure they weren't left to drift or be squashed into pulp.

I came up with another question. Flashpaks are said to work by igniting the artifical atmosphere on the ships. This is reinforced by the reference to 'lamps' which push away the artifical air in a small area to allow people to smoke on board (Victory Streak). If this were true, why wouldn't a single laser penetrating the living quarters gut the whole ship?

 

[DyNaMiX]

Fatcat,
Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems as if most WC settings are relatively close to solar systems. So there would be more particles of hydrogen and whatever else for the scoop fields to impact against/or collect. Not saying its 100% realistic but it would explain why they use hydrogen scoops and not anti-matter drives on all their spacecraft.

It wouldn't create drag though. It's nothing like colliding with particles in the air.

 

[DyNaMiX]

Ok, so the general rule is that the ships maintain an artificial gravity field which allows the ship to avoid the limitations of Newtonian physics. The particle scoops allow for extra maneuverability in space. This antigrav field can be manipulated to produce identical performance in atmosphere, but only certain ships are pressurizd properly to fly in an atmosphere, and ships like the Hellcat and Excalibur are more aerodynamic than say the Longbow. (And Academy should never be used to reference anything, since it was so wildly innacurate.)




Exactly. There is still Inertia in space, and it takes a lot of energy to shove around a huge capship. Also, if the engines were too powerful, the ship would be ripped apart because its structual strength is not enough to withstand that many Gs. Even with Antigravity/Gravity fields, which take even more energy from the engines, you would also have to accommodate for the human passengers and make sure they weren't left to drift or be squashed into pulp.

I came up with another question. Flashpaks are said to work by igniting the artifical atmosphere on the ships. This is reinforced by the reference to 'lamps' which push away the artifical air in a small area to allow people to smoke on board (Victory Streak). If this were true, why wouldn't a single laser penetrating the living quarters gut the whole ship?

"Air" isn't oxygen on it's own. It'd be a mixture of Nitrogen, Oxygen, Argon and all the other stuff.

 

[Quarto]

* Halcyon's warning in the Firekka 3 briefing: "And under no conditions are you to engage in combat in the planetary atmosphere. Our fighters aren’t equipped for planetary overpressure. One close call with an enemy missile, and the pressure differential will explode your ship." For one thing, it's a tacit admission that the Rapier IIs on the Tiger's Claw can be equipped for planetary overpressure...

Eugh, I think you've got this one completely wrong. To suggest that "they aren't equipped for planetary overpressure" implies that they can be so equipped is just like suggesting that "The Sopwith Camel can't carry Tomahawk cruise missiles" implies that the Camel could carry such missiles. It simply makes no sense - you're essentially arguing that the fact that someone specifically said you're wrong actually proves that you're right .

but even moreso, consider what a bizarre quote this is. Clearly there's something unique about this situation that's different from the 71 other Wing Commander I briefings. Perhaps they're new Rapiers that haven't been configured yet? Who knows -- but imagine it in a modern context... if the Rapiers can *never* fly in an atmosphere, would you ever remind pilots of this? "By the way, be sure not to fly your F-16 under water today... "

Not true either. Halcyon doesn't say that Rapiers can't ever fly in atmosphere - what he does say is that engaging in combat in atmosphere will most likely get you killed. This isn't the equivalent of telling F-16 pilots not to fly under water - it's the equivalent of telling them that they should not engage in a dogfight under 1000 metres in mountainous terrain.

I think we have to separate two things here - atmospheric flight, and atmospheric combat flight. In the case of the Rapier II, it's clear that the ship is capable of one, and it's equally clear that the ship is incapable of the other. Whether or not the Rapier II ever could be equipped for atmospheric combat flight is a silly thing to debate - we know that it's not equipped for it, and nowhere in any WC source are we given any reason to believe that it can be equipped for it. The fact that it happens with other ships (although there's no direct evidence that it does) is absolutely irrelevant, because there's no reason to take those other examples as being representative of a general trend.

 

[DyNaMiX]

Maybe we should just ignore what Halcyon said and take it as a "the programmers didn't have the technology to make a seperate flight engine for atmosphere AND space. The same reason your space craft will still act like they do in space when in atmosphere a decade from now".

 

[Haesslich]

I think we have to separate two things here - atmospheric flight, and atmospheric combat flight. In the case of the Rapier II, it's clear that the ship is capable of one, and it's equally clear that the ship is incapable of the other. Whether or not the Rapier II ever could be equipped for atmospheric combat flight is a silly thing to debate - we know that it's not equipped for it, and nowhere in any WC source are we given any reason to believe that it can be equipped for it. The fact that it happens with other ships (although there's no direct evidence that it does) is absolutely irrelevant, because there's no reason to take those other examples as being representative of a general trend.

Bear's Rapier II's in End Run ended up dogfighting with Salthi fighters on Vukar Tag after several of them launched to intercept the Cat Killers' landing craft, then subsequently hovered using antigrav to help do strafing of tanks, missile launchers, etc. Given that the novels are a canon source, we know they CAN do it. Whether this required heavy refitting or not is left unstated - but the reason that Bear hated it was because hey couldn't use scoop fields to maneuver, relying on just wing surfaces (his words, p .118) and low speeds as anything faster than a 'few kps' would cause too much friction. Given that the Rapier 'switched automatically' from thrusters to 'wing control surfaces' to maneuver, I suggest that the Rapier II designers had considered the possibility of atmospheric combat and designed the ship to handle it, or at least that it could be retrofitted for amphibious escort operations.

Remember that, in Action Stations, a carrier's main purpose (prior to torps) was to deliver fighters and bombers which could strike ground targets, as well as provide some recon and intercept capability. While it also states that not all craft were designed for space-to-air combat, some craft WERE meant for this role, like the Hurricanes. And, apparently, the Rapier II was also capable in this respect.