Tolwyn and the Nephilim

[Monsterfurby]

Since Tolwyn mentions several times that there were "other races" out there against which mankind must prepare to defend itself, I wonder if Confed would have been better off against the Nephilim if Geoffrey Tolwyn survived.

First of all, we have the two differen super/megacarriers. Blair's Midway Class is relatively manoevrable and has high-tech equipment, but as a ship itself it relies way too heavily on its fighter escort - PLUS it is apparently very expensive so only one was in service when they were needed. The Vesuvius class in contrast would pretty much be able to survive on its own, independent from a fighter escort. Also, there were already two V-Class carriers in service at the end of WC4 (although the Vesuvius was destroyed) and Tolwyn planned to even expand the fleet.
I honestly think that, while the Midway may have been a nice technological gadget, a fleet of Vesuvius carriers could have fought back the Nephilim invasion far easier than the Midway.

However, the victory over the Nephilim can also be credited to Blair's leadership and, ultimately, sacrifice. Would Tolwyn have been able to lead the confederate fleet in a similar - or similarly effective - manner? Well, Blair had to work with limited resources and only one ship, while Tolwyn would most likely have mobilized the whole confederate fleet to crush the Nephilim. While the technology of the Nephilim may be advanced, they proved, other than the Kilrathi, to be incompetent at terran tactics - an advantage Tolwyn would have used. A Kraken may be able to take out a Capship in one shot, but what if there are SWARMS of capital ships? And would they really know that they should take out the Vesuvius Classes first, and not the Concordia Classes? No.
Tolwyn would have outmanned the Nephilim even before they arrived.

The third and final point: did Tolwyn know that the Nephilim would attack? Well, not necessarily the Nephilim, but some advanced alien race "even the kilrathi feared". Intelligence would most likely have worked towards an early warning system allowing the fleet to welcome the Nephilim. On the other hand: would that have been a good Idea? Although Blair and the Midway were caught off guard, they did not engage the enemy full front before they even knew what they were dealing with. The science personnel of the Midway (and the Kraken crystal) were mainly responsible for the Midway's victory. Also, Tolwyn would probably not have been satisfied with the Bugs' retreat from the terran part of the galaxy, but would have started an invasion of the Nephilim homeworld (just think Independence Day - with switched roles.. ) - and no one knows what would have expected him there.

Well, so far about my stretched-out essay...
What is your opinion? Would Tolwyn have been able to defeat the Nephilim?

 

[Mace]

i think you missed the cutscene where the bugs slaughtered a megacarrier...

and the part where the kraken crystal mounted on the midway destroyed a little more than just one capship.

Also it was blair who was victorious against the black lance, which had more
recources, and state-of-the art technology, where blair had pliers.

and under tolwyn mankind would have defeated the nephilim, however tolwyn would consider more personnell
expendable(the WCIV version that is), the losses would have been far greater, but ofcourse he would go after
the retreating bugs and whipe them all out, until he found something else to fight....

 

[Edfilho]

Blair barelly led anyone in WCP. 90% of the success of confed was due to the pilots of the Midway. GRanted that Blair's sacrifice was indeed crucial in that final battle, but were it not for the 3 squadrons stationed on the Midway, there would have been no final battle at the wormhole. Maybe a final stand at Terra...

 

[Quarto]

Why does everyone always forget the TCS Eisen?

 

[TCSTigersClaw]

Tolwyn wouldnt do any good at all against the Nephilim.Good for us he died

 

[ChrisReid]

Tolwyn wouldnt do any good at all against the Nephilim.Good for us he died

Hard to argue with facts like that!

 

[Maj.Striker]

Tolwyn was a Patton kind of guy...he wouldn't have relented under and circumstances. He would have fought...and fought and fought until either he was destroyed or till he had pushed the bugs back through their little wormhole and eradicated their homeworlds (assuming such existed).

Favorite line of Patton's? "Nobody has ever won a war by dying for their country, you win a war by making the other dumb sunuvabitch die for his!"

 

[Nomad Terror]

Honestly I think had the civvie government not signed the armistace and started disarming the fleet that Tolwyn wouldn't have been pushed over the edge.

It was a miracle that we won the war, and he knew it and was determined to keep us from having to rely on miracles in the future.

 

[Mace]

to heavily outnumbered fend off an alien menace with unlimited recources, determination and advanced technology, you need to perform a miracle, not get
one. that makes the challenge in the games, and fiction wise, a vast unstoppable armada crushing everything in it's path, never loosing would not make an interesting story if they were the good guys AND won.

 

[McGruff]

Tolwyn was a Patton kind of guy...he wouldn't have relented under and circumstances. He would have fought...and fought and fought until either he was destroyed or till he had pushed the bugs back through their little wormhole and eradicated their homeworlds (assuming such existed).

Taking enough time in between to slap Casey.

i think you missed the cutscene where the bugs slaughtered a megacarrier...

I guess I missed that too. Which one??

 

[Death]

In Secret Ops, a Leviathan and its fighter complement dusted the Mount St Helens, in a cutscene somewhere (forget exactly) in the first half of the game.

(which you could fly in for a little bit, by hitting F1, which dropped you into a Shrike cockpit IIRC; couldn't save the ship, but still shoot some at bugs)

 

[Ijuin]

First of all, we have the two differen super/megacarriers. Blair's Midway Class is relatively manoevrable and has high-tech equipment, but as a ship itself it relies way too heavily on its fighter escort - PLUS it is apparently very expensive so only one was in service when they were needed. The Vesuvius class in contrast would pretty much be able to survive on its own, independent from a fighter escort. Also, there were already two V-Class carriers in service at the end of WC4 (although the Vesuvius was destroyed) and Tolwyn planned to even expand the fleet.
I honestly think that, while the Midway may have been a nice technological gadget, a fleet of Vesuvius carriers could have fought back the Nephilim invasion far easier than the Midway.

The point of the Midway class of carriers was that they were much cheaper to build than the Vesuvius class, while still carrying the equivalent of two Concordia class carriers, a full Marine batallion, and a dedicated science vessel. The reason that there was only one of them is because the other Midway carriers were still under construction--the TCS Midway was the first of its class, and it was barely ready to launch as it was. A full ten of them were actually being built by Confed.

 

[Ptarmigan]

Tolwyn wouldnt do any good at all against the Nephilim.Good for us he died

Never liked Tolwyn, especially when I first saw him in WC2.

 

[Jason_Ryock]

I think this is an interesting debate, and I have to question if its been brought up sooner. I'll run a search as soon as I'm done here.

You have to wonder if ConFleet was asking themselves the same questions when the bugs first showed up "What would Tolwyn do?"

While the man is not very likeable, he did win battles. And not just win them, he did it with style too. Say what you will about his fall from grace (into insanity) but genius and insanity have always had a very fine line between them.

I do not believe that ConFed would have survived the war without Tolwyn, and I believe they survived the aftermath because of the preperations he put into place. Maybe he took it overboard and just a bit to far, but he did it because in his heart he really only loved ConFed and didn't want to see it destroyed.

I think he would have relished the Bug war, for what it is. ConFleet is finally giving out decent weapons, and allowing their commanders to use them effectively. He would have enjoyed the chance to employ his tacticaly thinking mind against an enemy he couldn't understand.

Heck, the sheer challenge of it sure amuses me. In fact, it's one of the reasons I created the WCAAO RPG forums. There's nothing more thrilling then looking at the jump lines going, Which is better...A or B? and not really knowing whats on the other side, because you really don't know what the enemy is thinking...

I think you're wrong about him annihilating the Bugs homeworld. It was necessary in the case of the Kilrathi, they were never going to stop fighting. And their entire fleet was there. That single operation ended the war. Doing that to the Bugs wouldn't have the same affect, and I think eventually peace could have been reached with the Bugs, if they were defeated enough.

 

[Porthos]

Peace with the bugs? I'd doubt it. You do not fight an adversary that is wholly bent on your destruction only to make peace with it when you have it by the jugular.

 

[TC]

Since Tolwyn mentions several times that there were "other races" out there against which mankind must prepare to defend itself, I wonder if Confed would have been better off against the Nephilim if Geoffrey Tolwyn survived.

First of all, we have the two differen super/megacarriers. Blair's Midway Class is relatively manoevrable and has high-tech equipment, but as a ship itself it relies way too heavily on its fighter escort - PLUS it is apparently very expensive so only one was in service when they were needed. The Vesuvius class in contrast would pretty much be able to survive on its own, independent from a fighter escort. Also, there were already two V-Class carriers in service at the end of WC4 (although the Vesuvius was destroyed) and Tolwyn planned to even expand the fleet.
I honestly think that, while the Midway may have been a nice technological gadget, a fleet of Vesuvius carriers could have fought back the Nephilim invasion far easier than the Midway.[/b]

The Confederation, circa Prophecy and Secret Ops, has both Midway and Vesuvius class heavy carriers.

The TCS Eisen and it's carrier group clears areas ahead of the Midway through part of Prophecy, for instance, and you see the Mt. St. Helens in Secret Ops. Either way, the Midway class was designed because it's a cheaper alternative to the Vesuvius class while exceeding it in a number of capabilities. It's a much better alternative for the sort of navy that's needed in a peace time situation, while still carrying more fighters than any carrier other than the Vesuvius class.

In addition, your statement that the Vesuvius class is capable of operating without a fighter escort is insane. That's the whole point of a carrier, it uses fighters. Not only would a Vesuvius class carrier have a fighter escort, it would also have a fair number of capital ships with it (hence the Eisen carrier group operating ahead of the Midway). Both the Vesuvius and Midway class were intended to act as the center of a carrier group during wartime. The Midway class is capable of operating independently during peacetime, but that's it. Every carrier class is intended to have some sort of capital escort. Even the Tiger's Claw, a strike carrier, and the most heavily armed carrier we've seen, was intended to have an escort, for the most part.

However, the victory over the Nephilim can also be credited to Blair's leadership and, ultimately, sacrifice.

Blair really didn't do all that much leadership. He was clearly important right at the end, but he was fairly conflicted otherwise, then got captured, and then wasn't really in a great frame of mind.

Would Tolwyn have been able to lead the confederate fleet in a similar - or similarly effective - manner? Well, Blair had to work with limited resources and only one ship, while Tolwyn would most likely have mobilized the whole confederate fleet to crush the Nephilim.

How? What? If Tolwyn were somehow in the same position, he wouldn't have the opportunity to bring in the rest of the Confederation fleet. There was the Eisen Carrier Group, the Midway, and pretty much everyone else couldn't be contacted and, when they could, really couldn't get anywhere in time to be useful.

While the technology of the Nephilim may be advanced, they proved, other than the Kilrathi, to be incompetent at terran tactics - an advantage Tolwyn would have used. A Kraken may be able to take out a Capship in one shot, but what if there are SWARMS of capital ships?

Er... you noticed that whole thing where they shoot into space and can, effectively, blow up a fleet?

And would they really know that they should take out the Vesuvius Classes first, and not the Concordia Classes? No.
Tolwyn would have outmanned the Nephilim even before they arrived.

How... This makes no sense.

The third and final point: did Tolwyn know that the Nephilim would attack? Well, not necessarily the Nephilim, but some advanced alien race "even the kilrathi feared".

That's a reference to the Mantu who aren't a threat in the least.

Intelligence would most likely have worked towards an early warning system allowing the fleet to welcome the Nephilim.

How do you plan an early warning system that detects a mode of transport you've never seen before right into the middle of friendly territory. How could anyone have been warned all that much faster than noticing things going to shit in Kilrah? It's not like nobody noticed once they showed up.

 

[ChrisReid]

Hahaha

Peace with the bugs? I'd doubt it. You do not fight an adversary that is wholly bent on your destruction only to make peace with it when you have it by the jugular.

 

[d3r3k]

What class of ships are featured on the cover?

 

[Icefire69]

What class of ships are featured on the cover?

Kilrathi Super Carriers i guess, have a look at Standof MOD for Secret Ops if you wanna see on Ingame.

 

[Sarty]

Yeah, its the Hakaga Super Carrier. The Standoff crew made a wallpaper of that scene too, it looks real nice.