the new war in the gulf

Discussion in 'Off-topic Zone' started by Bobbo1701, Mar 20, 2003.

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  1. Bobbo1701

    Bobbo1701 Spaceman

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    Let me ask everyone here, when did it become right to kill in order to tell someone that killing is wrong? Npw don't get me wrong, I understand the sometimes war is nessesary. I was raised a service brat and my father explained to me during the first Gulf War that, while horrible, sometimes war is the only option. But then, I'm am also a Wiccan and am bound by that faith to believe that killing for any reason is wrong. I've really struggled to balance these two conflicting ideas for awhile now particularly in the last 12 hours. I've come to this conclusioin, this war is wrong but it was inevitable. Bush does not know how to play the diplomacy game. Hussein is so corrupted by power that he will not let it go. And the rest of the world has as much blame to go to them as well. When this is over, there will be a lot of blood on a lot of people's hands.

    Unfortunately it has begun and to turn around and stop it now would make us look dumber then we already do. The best thing we can do is to support our troops and hope they come home safely. If the Goddess wills it, it will be done.
     
  2. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation!

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    The dawn of time, give or take a week.
     
  3. Preacher

    Preacher Swabbie
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    1) Seems like you have your theology wrong, and/or perhaps your statement was overly general...

    Lemme get this straight: Someone comes at you with a loaded rifle, and you're telling me your faith teaches that it would be *wrong* for you to kill him?... Where I come from, we call that self-defense, or (legally) "justifiable homicide". I'm not aware of a religion in the world that doesn't allow for killing in self-defense. Indeed, most folks view that as being the ONLY justifiable/allowable reason. Yet you say that killing is wrong "for ANY reason". How's that work?... Anybody will admit that killing in self defense is regrettable, but only WRONG if there's no justifiable reason (self-defense) for it.

    2) You contradict yourself in the second part I quoted from you above. IF killing for any reason is wrong, then it shouldn't make any difference how "dumb" we look if we were to stop it. If it's wrong for "any" reason, then you are BOUND to try and stop it... I look forward to seeing your face on the evening news at the head of the latest anti-war protest march. Be sure to included "WC CIC" somewhere on your protest sign, just so we know it's you...:rolleyes:
     
  4. Aries

    Aries Vice Admiral

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    Re: Re: the new war in the gulf

    seems to me he's putting the good of the nation before his own personal beliefs
     
  5. Preacher

    Preacher Swabbie
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    Not necessarily. I assume by the "a week" part yer referrin' to the Genesis creation account?... If so, then ya need to remember that Cain was the first murderer, which means:
    a) that he had to be conceived (within 72 hrs or so after Adam & Eve got jiggy wid it),
    b) gestated (~ 9 mos.),
    c) born (~3-24 hrs or so),
    d) grown up to sufficient age to offer sacrifices (say, about 15 yrs old or so)

    Total elapsed time = 16 years, give or take. Considerably longer'n a week...;)
    Perhaps. But yet, how is it "good" for the nation to lose potentially many *thousands* of our best & brightest simply so we don't "look dumber than we already do"?...
     
  6. Phillip Tanaka

    Phillip Tanaka Swabbie
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    Well I assume you're heard everything about Saddam, haven't you? All of the atrocities he has committed. The war on terror or the weapons of mass destruction has nothing to do with Iraq. The purpose of this war is to oust Saddam, who has been given many chances to cooperate. Now granted things such as 'you have shown us that you have no weapons of mass destruction, but you still have AK-47s so we will still wage war', or the full and unconditional surrender of Iraq in two day may be unfair. But the majority of Iraqis want a regime change. The thousands you see protesting the war? This is nothing compared to the many who want Saddam gone. But because of the type of country Iraq is, where they capture and torture those who speak out against Saddam, many are afraid. Here, let Mariko Tanaka try and put into perspective why war and such may have to take place.

    Many of us have suffered terrible losses. But I cannot stop thinking that what we are doing here, it is important. I had begun to think that perhaps any war was wrong, that the cost of life is too high. But perhaps there are wars that must be fought. And I think our own war is one of them.
     
  7. Preacher

    Preacher Swabbie
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    Re: Re: the new war in the gulf

    Well said, sir.
     
  8. Bobbo1701

    Bobbo1701 Spaceman

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    Re: Re: the new war in the gulf

    Yes I may have been over generalizing things a bit. I would kill to protect myself or my family or m friends if that was my last resort. What you need to know and understand is that one of the central tenants to Wicca is "Do as you will, may it harm none." Basically, do what ever the hell you want, as long as you don't hurt anyone. But, there is some lee way as far as self defense is concerned. But at the same time, if i were to kill someone, even for that reason, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Goddess would hold me accountable and i would pay for it for the rest of my life. I can live with that because I would be responsibsle for taking a life.

    As far as contradicting myself, I don't think I am, because, being a service brat as I mentioned, I was raised to love this country. I may think we are doing wrong, but to wuss out now in this stage of the game would only invite more attacks like what we saw on 9/11.
     
  9. Phillip Tanaka

    Phillip Tanaka Swabbie
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    Re: Re: Re: the new war in the gulf

    And really, Bush can't win either way can he? Back down and terrorists will see the West as weak and can be defeated. Step up and terrorists will use it as proof that the West is the evil empire. Yes, terrorism knows no boundries and is international, but I'm primarily referring to An Qaeda and their splinter cells that are predominently Middle Eastern.
     
  10. Bobbo1701

    Bobbo1701 Spaceman

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: the new war in the gulf

    Exactly. and not to be nitpicky, but it's Al Qaeda. Probably a typo but just thought i'd let you know
     
  11. Phillip Tanaka

    Phillip Tanaka Swabbie
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    Yeah, a typo. It happens.
     
  12. Aries

    Aries Vice Admiral

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: the new war in the gulf

    just another reason we're justified to hit iraq....tis better to be feared than loved
     
  13. Quarto

    Quarto Unknown Enemy

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    No, I'm pretty sure he's just using sarcasm to point out that this has always been the case :p.
     
  14. Preacher

    Preacher Swabbie
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    Re: Re: Re: the new war in the gulf

    (1) You confuse me: If there is "some leeway" RE: Self-defense, then how do you figure you'd be held accountable for it? "Leeway" generally indicates that one *won't* be held accountable for something that they otherwise would be. Your description don't sound much like leeway to me.


    (2) No one talked about "wussing out". I simply said that, if you REALLY believe (down deep in your heart) that killing for any reason is wrong, you are BOUND (read: compelled) by your faith/belief to do what you can to stop the carnage.

    In this country, that usually takes the form of protest (as the big crowd in Chicago demonstrated today), calling for the leadership to stop the war. Which, btw, is the patriotic exercise of the freedom your Dad gave probably the best years of his life for. Yet, I don't see you doing that. Therefore, I am forced to conclude that your patriotism trumps your Wiccan faith.

    And if your faith is the weaker of the two, I hafta wonder just how deep that faith really is...Religious faith, when it is genuine and sincere, is usually the strongest force in a person's life--otherwise, it's simply a belief. And there is an awfully wide gulf between "head belief" (i.e., I believe that H2 + O equals water, but I don't govern my life by that belief) and true faith (since I can tell you that my belief/faith in Christ has completely transformed my life). As someone once said, "the longest 18 inches in the world are those between a man's head and his heart".

    As misguided as their faith was, the 9-11 hijackers were willing to give their lives (well, at least those who *knew* what the ultimate endpoint was, and word is, only the leaders of each team knew that) for it. And of course, Jews and Christians throughout history have died for their faith and the principles that same espoused. And here you are posting to a chat forum instead of going out to protest what you say your faith causes you to believe is wrong...

    :: sniffs the air::
    Something ain't right there...
     
  15. Phillip Tanaka

    Phillip Tanaka Swabbie
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    I heard in Australia that peace protestors were going to wage war on Prime Minister John Howard. Now they don't want war, but they'll wage war on Howard. Where's the sense in that?
     
  16. ChrisReid

    ChrisReid Super Soaker Collector / Administrator

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    Re: Re: Re: the new war in the gulf

    "Do what you want, as long as you don't hurt anyone" is an absurdly simplified generalization of the utilitarian concept suggested long ago by the political theorist John Stuart Mill. Its a section of the notion of the harm principle. Preventative harm is a controversial but perfectly valid form of action under the originator of the principle. Concidentally, Mill also espoused a theory where it is the just responsibility of civilized nations to coerce barbarians and corrupt nations to freedom.
     
  17. Bobbo1701

    Bobbo1701 Spaceman

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: the new war in the gulf

    By lee way i mean that the punishment, for lack of a better word, that i would incur would no tbe as sever as if i had killed someone in malice. And as a matter of fact I was out protesting this war today at my college campus. You probably not gong to see it on CNN because there were very few of us and we're in the middle of butt fuck no where, but the point is i did it. However that does not mean that i think we should pull out now that we are committed. My goal now, particularlly begin in an area where a vast majority support Bush, is to show that there are thos in this country who believe taht this war is wrong and dangerous and there is no way we can walk out of it looking good.
     
  18. Quarto

    Quarto Unknown Enemy

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    You know better than that :p. War on Howard is just a figure of speech, it's not the sort of war where people die.
     
  19. Chris Mungo

    Chris Mungo Spaceman

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    Saddam is evil - no discussion. But why attack the USA Saddam now? iraq is a threat for USA? no, of course not. 1447? Hey, the US wait 12 years and now they think, 2 weeks are too short?
    stupid.

    I'll say something: the USA have foundet the UN, accepted the un-carta and now, the USA attack a country that is no threat for the usa.

    Think about it.
     
  20. Romale

    Romale Spaceman

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    Hey bobo, clearly you need to relize giving a good ass woopin is a pillar of American Society
     
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