The Movie. Jump points. Cats. and so on...

MjavTheGray

Spaceman
I must confess that while I can read ensglish adequately (at least I hope so), spoken inglish is the other thing. So I feel that I've missed lots of details about the film.

What was the reason that Rapier could jump through the quazar while the all kilrathi fleet - couldn't?
Their single cruser did go through, didn't it? Or did the 'Claw distract the fleet? But how could they distract anyone while hiding in asteroids?

And by the way - why never since that day did Blair jump through quazars?
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Excellent thread, another Space Point for you - I really like the idea of thinking about the movie's internal logic instead of just complaining about it.

What was the reason that Rapier could jump through the quazar while the all kilrathi fleet - couldn't?
Their single cruser did go through, didn't it? Or did the 'Claw distract the fleet? But how could they distract anyone while hiding in asteroids?

The Kilrathi fleet does go through - the cruiser was the first ship to arrive, and then the others came through one at a time (and were destroyed because Blair reported to Tolwyn where they were jumping in.)

The Tiger's Claw did distract the fleet somewhat - it leaves the asteroids and engages another Kilrathi battleship right near the end of the movie ("Now what?" "Now we make them sorry they were ever born.")

The quasar (Charybdis) had many possible jump points - to get to the destination you wanted, you had to have a special map (a key, of sorts.) That's what the Kilrathi captured at Pegasus at the start of the movie - the NAVCOM AI computer which had the coordinates for Earth. Without that captured information, the Kilrathi would not have been able to jump. Blair could jump because of his Pilgrim abilities, which allow him to map the quasar's routes on his own.

And by the way - why never since that day did Blair jump through quazars?

He actually does, in a sense - in Wing Commander Academy Tolwyn assigns him to lead a long-range reconaissance mission through the 'supernode' of a Pulsar.
 

MjavTheGray

Spaceman
Ah! I see... And I was somewhat sure that the fleet changed the course to go for the 'classic' jump point.
Except the movie and that Academy episode - is there any mentioning of quazar travelling?
And.. Were there any quazars in BW space? (Was there a possibility that some half-blood pilgrim would seek refugee there?)
That's all about roleplay we have here. So I thought that maybe BW could have some surpise for confed expansion...
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Except the movie and that Academy episode - is there any mentioning of quazar travelling?

Not specifically quasars, but the idea that spatial anomalies let you do special jumps is common in Wing Commander - the 'Enigma Sector black hole' in Wing Commander II had the same effect as Charybdis, allowing whoever controls it to jump across the entire sector.

We do hear about a quasar in Wing Commander III, but we don't jump it.


And.. Were there any quazars in BW space? (Was there a possibility that some half-blood pilgrim would seek refugee there?)


Short answer yes - the Loki System has one of the two known quasars in it... and it is part of the Union of Border Worlds.

Long answer, though: the Border Worlds (as a nation) and the Pilgrims didn't exist at the same time, though - almost every Pilgrim in the galaxy 'leaves' in 2654... and the Union of Border Worlds doesn't come into being until 2673. Pilgrims also don't need refuge - they continued to have several star systems (and other safe zones) after the war.
 

MjavTheGray

Spaceman
I do not get it. If the pilgrims 'have left', how do they remain to have 'several star systems' ?
Or is it Pilgrim war mentioned, not Kilrathi one?
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
I do not get it. If the pilgrims 'have left', how do they remain to have 'several star systems' ?
Or is it Pilgrim war mentioned, not Kilrathi one?

Sorry, let me explain...

After the Pilgrim War ended, several star systems were left for the Pilgrims (as well as various enclaves.) Roughly twenty years later, in the novel 'Pilgrim Truth', most of the Pilgrims got together and left the galaxy altogether... so they just aren't around after Wing Commander I.
 

MannPower

Commodore
Almost every Pilgrim leaves, teehee.

You're not going to find any real good rationale for the Pilgrim anamoly in the game canon, simply because the Pilgrims were a plot mechanic made specifically for the movie. So it's difficult to quantify their existence - or evidence there-of - in anything else but the movie.

As for 'internal logic' of the film, it's rife with too many scientific inaccuracies to number, as is any sci-fi film - but WC to a slightly greater extent, since it was stylistically supposed to be similar to a WW2 film. For instance; when the Rapiers launch from the Claw, they 'dip down' at the end of the runway, like an atmospheric fighter. Due to the lack of gravity in space, they should just careen off in a straight line, ala WC2.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
You're not going to find any real good rationale for the Pilgrim anamoly in the game canon, simply because the Pilgrims were a plot mechanic made specifically for the movie. So it's difficult to quantify their existence - or evidence there-of - in anything else but the movie.

They're mentioned in Arena and Star*Soldier once or twice...

... but they're an odd story, and they largely exist specifically so people *wouldn't* complain about continuity. The original plan for the movie was to have it be 'Border Worlders' who had unique math powers, suggesting a root cause for the conflict in Wing Commander IV. They eventually went with something entirely new, so as not to interfere with the existing material... and people complained anyway.

As for whether or not they 'fit' - we don't have a problem with Privateer adding the Church of Man, so why should we complain about some other crazy space religion? It's just an area of the continuity that's not explained - not something especially contradictory. At the very least, at least the movie tie-ins were very good about cleaning up after themselves.

As for 'internal logic' of the film, it's rife with too many scientific inaccuracies to number, as is any sci-fi film - but WC to a slightly created extent, since it was stylistically supposed to be similar to a WW2 film. For instance; when the Rapiers launch from the Claw, they 'dip down' at the end of the runway, like an atmospheric fighter. Due to the lack of gravity in space, they should just careen off in a straight line, ala WC2.

I think you'll find World War 2 trumps science *throughout* Wing Commander. :) I always thought the dips were cute... it was pushing the fighter off the flight deck later that was awkward.
 

MannPower

Commodore
Right, hence why I said there were too many inconsistencies to go into at great length.

I mentioned the Rapier dip because it's the one most people don't pick up on. As for the Pilgrims, I'm not sure it was necessary to even introduce them at all - but that's a very old can of worms that's not worth opening yet again. In truth, I don't think they would have seemed so awkward if they didn't have 'special powers.' Driven mad by early jump exploration / technology, perhaps, but it'd feel more authentic for them to hate the powers-that-be if their prototype technology caused their mental anguish. Sort of like a Philadelphia Project allusion.

But I digress.

I can forgive just about everything in the movie aside from the 'cats. I enjoyed seeing the Kilrathi side of things so much in WC2 - if they fleshed them out better in the film, they wouldn't have felt so generic to non-canoneers.

Of course, budget is to blame.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Actually, I'd be curious to see just the opposite - what if they fleshed them out *less*? Similar to Wing Commander I... you cut out the 'explanatory' Kilrathi conversations entirely and *only* see the Kilrathi when the main character encounter them (some quick cuts during the action on the ComCon, some VDU taunts.) We've all seen the 'expanded' Kilrathi dialogue from the original script... it really doesn't add much.

I would also have liked to see the Pilgrim Powers better explained - I have no problem with the pseudoscience of it, but the intention didn't come across very well in the movie. I very much *like* the idea that they could be a criticism of Star Wars' force rather than a ripoff... if they'd made that more clear, it would have been pretty neat.


I don't think it was so much budget that got us the current Kilrathi - they were very expensive. Chris Roberts wanted to make them different, approved the new version and saw them constructed... it wasn't until they were filming that everyone realized they just didn't work.
 

Aginor

Vice Admiral
I would also have liked to see the Pilgrim Powers better explained - I have no problem with the pseudoscience of it, but the intention didn't come across very well in the movie. I very much *like* the idea that they could be a criticism of Star Wars' force rather than a ripoff... if they'd made that more clear, it would have been pretty neat.


Arrgh.... There goes my potential Space Point..... :(
(The next question I would have asked was: What are the Pilgrim powers? How do they work? What do we know about them and what do you think about them?)
 

MannPower

Commodore
Well, when you take into account the budget they had, I'd say that it added some limitations on just how far they could take the Kilrathi.

As much as I enjoyed Wing Commander 1, you didn't really pick up on how little about the Kilrathi you knew until WC2. As someone who played the games before the film, I already had a love for the Kilrathi as characters, and thusly was disappointed to see none of that in the film. If I had only played WC1, then perhaps I could more easily excuse their shallow presence.

I do see value of your idea, though - showing less. I think they felt so insubstantial because the 'Pilgrim' aspect kind of downplayed the threat of the Kilrathi at crucial points of the film where the audience's attention needed to be directed at the real threat, rather than receiving constant 'pilgrim static'. I think it was a bit over-dramatized, even given the 'pilgrim saboteur' blurb inserted into the script.

What I think ruined the Kilrathi most, though, was the lack of the banter we heard about them in the games. Even in WC1, they were referred to as 'The cats', 'furballs', 'hairballs', and the obligitory 'kitty litter' taunts. The Kilrathi were never endeared in any such manner in the film, and therefore they felt way too alien. Almost to the point where their name didn't even really matter.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
I don't know - I mean, that's *exactly* what the movie tried to do... literally take the Wing Commander II & III model and occasionally cut to two Kilrathi talking about their plans. I don't think it worked especially well, even in the abbreviated form we saw... (most of the earlier conversations were about the traitor.)

The Pilgrim material makes a lot more sense in the original version - when the actual threat in the movie is Pilgrim saboteurs. As it is, it's just dangling bits that don't really lead any where good.

I completely agree, regarding the banter. If I were doing my 'cat free' version, suggested above, I'd have the rec-room, mentor and relationship scenes all involve/revolve around *reaction* to the Kilrathi. Blair doesn't know what to think, he and Maniac are new and scared - Hunter hates them for killing his brother... Polanski says they're not as tough as they seem, he was at the route on Epislon IV... Paladin has the real story about what they're like from his time as a POW... etc. Build your relationships around that and at the same time build up the enemy you never see, instead of a fear of Pilgrims.
 

MannPower

Commodore
The Pilgrim material makes a lot more sense in the original version - when the actual threat in the movie is Pilgrim saboteurs. As it is, it's just dangling bits that don't really lead any where good.

Yep - it had its place in the original script / novelization. The threat was real, it was there, and it made sense. Like in WC2, all the finger pointing is at Blair while the real jerk is pulling the strings. Without that, the "Pilgrim hatin'" was, plot-wise, inconsequential and drew too much precious screentime that could have been better spent on pondering the nature of the enemy for the audience's benefit.

I completely agree, regarding the banter. If I were doing my 'cat free' version, suggested above, I'd have the rec-room, mentor and relationship scenes all involve/revolve around *reaction* to the Kilrathi. Blair doesn't know what to think, he and Maniac are new and scared - Hunter hates them for killing his brother... Polanski says they're not as tough as they seem, he was at the route on Epislon IV... Paladin has the real story about what they're like from his time as a POW... etc. Build your relationships around that and at the same time build up the enemy you never see, instead of a fear of Pilgrims.

Absolutely! You need look only as far as the bar and Shotglass for inspiration on fleshing out an enemy without having to cut to a scene of Kilrathi conversing. Your perception of them, as an audience and a player, is molded so much more effectively by the reactions and emotions of fellow humans, inflicted by the actions of the enemy.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Yeah, I meant to point that out earlier - there are no real quasars in our galaxy... so both Wing Commander III and the movie are scientifically wrong on that point.

Unless the Loki and Dakota systems are positioned outside the galaxy and only accessible because of some oddity in jump mechanics, I guess...
 

Blaster

Rear Admiral
For instance; when the Rapiers launch from the Claw, they 'dip down' at the end of the runway, like an atmospheric fighter. Due to the lack of gravity in space, they should just careen off in a straight line, ala WC2.

I think it’s clear that ships in Wing Commander have some kind of artificial gravity, there has to be some force holding people’s feet to the floor. I don’t see any reason why it couldn’t extend a little ways beyond the deck, either intentionally or as a side effect.
 

MannPower

Commodore
I think it’s clear that ships in Wing Commander have some kind of artificial gravity, there has to be some force holding people’s feet to the floor. I don’t see any reason why it couldn’t extend a little ways beyond the deck, either intentionally or as a side effect.

Even if that were indeed the case, there is nothing below the deck-plane when the Rapier leaves the runway. That being said, if the artificial gravity were still affecting the craft, it would pull it toward the 'Claw like a weak magnet, rather than just 'down'.

An argument against the artificial gravity being a 'field' that extends beyond the boarders of the craft would be the liabilities it'd impose. Torpedoes moving above the gravity plane of the 'Claw would be pulled downward towards the ship.
 

Blaster

Rear Admiral
Without knowing much about how the artificial gravity works I don’t think we could say a lot how it would effect things outside the ship, if at all. It’s possible to mix together positive and negative electrical charges and get forces pointed in all kinds of weird directions. We know that anti-graviton particles exist in Wing Commander, if they are involved somehow they could have all kinds of goofy effects on the gravity field.
 

MannPower

Commodore
Even still, you can still extrapolate the logic from the apparent effects of the fictional technology. All I am saying is that it wouldn't make sense for the gravity to extend outside of the ship's physical boundaries, otherwise it'd affect the trajectory of any kind of projectile fired from it. Specifically torpedoes.

Also, if they consciously intended the artificial gravity to extend down the length of the runway and beyond, why'd Maniac have to tie himself to something before he tried to leave the flight deck's air-field? He'd just need to hold his breath, since he could just walk out there. I always got the impression that the deck beyond required magnetized boots/treads (in the case of the dozer, which pushed the wreckage off the deck.. Which didn't float away.)
 
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