The Catholic do not worship Mary over Jesus; they pray her to intercede to God. See, it's just as pressure groups asks a lobbyist to intercede do the President to influence politics, the Catholics ask Mary to intercede to God (she must be in good terms with Him, because she was choosen amongst all women to deliver Jesus to the world).Erkle said:1. The Catholic Church at times worships Mary over Jesus, in my mind a form idoltry since Mary just brought Jesus into the world and was not set up herself for worship by God.
This is not a fith thing, but a political one. Unfortunately, the Catholic church has been created by the Romans who wanted to control and convert all the roman empire to their new religion. Bishop titles were gifts to man of confidence of the Emperor (and after the fall of the empire, the kings) to rule over the land just as Lords and amass riches. Control was the key in the dark ages... that's why you had to confess you sins to a minister, services were in a language only the elite people knew, etc. Ignorance is a powerfull tool to control the masses.Erkle said:2. The strangest thing I know of is that in the past (middle ages) the Catholic Church preformed all services in Latin (and some still do) a language that most people of the time did not speak so they where not able to understand their worship.
3. The Catholic Church does not encourage praying on your own or confessing sins on your own. You have to go to Church and talk with their minister. Sounds to me that they think you need a middleman between you and God.
Ok I can see your point but why is it that when you go into a Caholic church and most homes you see statues of Mary prior to statues of Jesus (and yes I know that their are images of Jesus on the cross and in stained glass windows and such) but making a statue for people to pray to is in my mind making an idol because Mary is not part of the Holy Trinity. And your right the Catholic church takes a long time to do things. Didn't they just forgive Gaileo or was it da Vinci for saying that the Earth was not the center of our solar system?PopsiclePete said:The Catholic do not worship Mary over Jesus; they pray her to intercede to God.
Not in any church or home I visited... I mean there are statues representing Mary with baby Jesus in her arms, statues of Joseph and such, the the most proeminent symbol is always the cross. At home and in all the families I know there are only crucifixes. Our Cathedral has a small chapel for Mary in wich you can lit a candle and pray for her to intercede, but nothing major.Erkle said:Ok I can see your point but why is it that when you go into a Caholic church and most homes you see statues of Mary prior to statues of Jesus
I believe there are statues of Mary especially because we cannot make a physical representation of God. I might have been seen in the past as a way to help the newly converted pagans to pray to God via Mary, since many pagans were used to pray in from of idols. Since praying to an idol if forbidden in Jew/Christian/Muslim religions praying in front of the statue of an intercessor might have been seen as acceptable, I suppose.Erkle said:but making a statue for people to pray to is in my mind making an idol because Mary is not part of the Holy Trinity.
Some animals do indeed engage in homosexual behaviour. This behaviour does seem to be well documented and thus proves that homosexuality can indeed be governed by genetics. Hence the same is likely to be so with humans. While humans have big brains, this does not neccessarily mean we can go against what is in our genes. Its like saying, I choose to have purple skin, *poof* I have purple skin. That's silly. Its not neccessarily a choice to make.Wedge009 said:Well said! With a WC reference too! But yes, I find the idea of homosexuality completely unnatural, clearly the parts don't line up properly. I've heard some argue that animals sometimes engage in homosexual behaviour, but I find that to be a petty excuse. People are supposed to be different from animals, with all the intelligence to make a choice that their sentience implies. Which again goes to my point that homosexuality is a choice, not 'genetics'. Not everything is genetics - one only needs to observe this from identical twins (essentially 'clones').
Catholics worship no one but God. Mary is not worshiped, but honored. Worship of Mary or anything else that is not God would be a grave sin against the first commandment.Erkle said:1. The Catholic Church at times worships Mary over Jesus, in my mind a form idoltry since Mary just brought Jesus into the world and was not set up herself for worship by God.
This is also manifestly untrue. All Catholics are strongly encouraged to pray on a daily basis. In particular, it is strongly suggested that Catholics make a daily Act of Contrition, in which they apologize to God for their sins and make a promise to do better from that point forward. A personal relationship with the savior is an essential aspect in the spiritual life of every Catholic.Erkle said:3. The Catholic Church does not encourage praying on your own or confessing sins on your own. You have to go to Church and talk with their minister. Sounds to me that they think you need a middleman between you and God. Meaning you can not have a personal relationship with your own saivor?
Some animals eat one another. Should we, also, begin this practice because it is considered natural?Some animals do indeed engage in homosexual behaviour.
well it really isnt against the first commandment to worship other gods or other beings at all.Farlander said:Catholics worship no one but God. Mary is not worshiped, but honored. Worship of Mary or anything else that is not God would be a grave sin against the first commandment.
Incorrect translation. "I am the LORD thy God, thou shalt worship no other gods BESIDES me."What does the first commandment say? "I am the lord thy god, thou shalt worship no other gods BEFORE me"
Yer missin' the point, bub. I was askin' Christians how they view the controversy as R/T the Church, not going into the whole gov't deal on whether or not to wade in w/ more laws concerning same. That's a separate issue.Hobbie said:...The government or anyone else for that matter shouldn't tell them what to do because it is their own personal business.
... then there really wouldn't even be a problem outside of the Episcopalians themselves.
...T it is a violation of the Constitution to not allow these people to practice however they please.
You seem to be forgetting the fact that gay marriage is ALREADY "outlawed", in that it is not (nor ever has been) a recognized legal entity in this nation. All G. Dubbs & Co. are trying to do is to see that it REMAIN that way. In short, the idea is to preserve the status quo, rather than invent a whole new paradigm. That's hardly "melding religion with state". No doubt Dubbs' viewpoint is one that is heavily influenced by his faith, but there are plenty or nonreligious people who also think that to accord gay unions the same status as marriage is wrong.Bob McDob said:I'm much less concerned with religion than the Bush administration's apparent desire to meld it with state. ...but the administration's idea of outlawing gay marriage seems, honestly, petty. Is Bush claiming that Christians have some sort of monopoly on the idea of marriage, or that theirs is inherently better? (I'd prefer the entire marriage thing be abolished and replaced with common-law unions, anyway. Serves the same purpose without trying to legislate morality).
Well, the "doctrine" of the trinity maybe was developed when you say it was, but the concept thereof was orginated by none other than Christ Himself, in the Great Commission (Matt. 28:19-20). He commanded the apostles to baptize converts "in the name of the Father, the Son, & the Holy Spirit...Napoleon said:...those who determined such basics as the concept of the trinity (decided sometime in the 5th or 6th century if i remember correctly).
Not quite correct. There was movement afoot for awhile there where good ol' Pope JP2 was actually considering elevating Mary to the status of "Co-Redemptrix of Humanity" (see http://www.cta-usa.org/watch8-97/bishops.html for a reference). Sounds to me like a pretty worshipful office to hold, wouldn't you say?...Calling her "Co-" indicates equality w/ Jesus, and makes her eligible for worship. If the idea was for her to simply be an "assistant", the term would be something like "Sub-Redemptrix". Anyway, I dunno what ever happened to that idea, but I wouldn't be surprised if JP2 ended up rejecting it either becausePopsiclePete said:The Catholic do not worship Mary over Jesus; they pray her to intercede to God.
Uh huh.Nappydman said:...America is supposed to be a country founded on the idea that all people can have the choice to do as they please, as long as it doesn't hurt anybody else...To deny citizens of your country the freedom to legally take the final step in a relationship with the person they love is wrong, and against the spirit of the Constitution.
That animals do it don't prove squat, bub. The key here is the word "can", as in "can be governed". This is not the same as "IS governed". In all likelihood, one's turning out gay is a combination of biological and enviro'l factors, with the enviro being the more major of the 2 influences.steampunk said:Some animals do indeed engage in homosexual behaviour. This behaviour does seem to be well documented and thus proves that homosexuality can indeed be governed by genetics. Hence the same is likely to be so with humans
.... this does not neccessarily mean we can go against what is in our genes. Its like saying, I choose to have purple skin, *poof* I have purple skin. That's silly. Its not neccessarily a choice to make.
Wrong, bub, it is YOU who either forget, or else (more likely) never knew in the first place about the subject you speak of:Napoleon said:...Dark F: you seem to forget that paul consideres all forms of sex between any combination of sexes or beings wrong and evil and that celebacy is the best way. He also considers women evil.
I don´t want to get sucked into this neverending discussion, but relationships with children are forbidden because, in one sentence, their mind and body are not ready for it. That´s also why they don´t let children drink.Preacher said:...and if I love your 6-year-old niece (or better yet, daughter, if you have one), and she loves me, we should be allowed to marry and have sex because it's the "final step in our love relationship" with one another?...
I'm sorry to report that you actually sound like Senator Rick Santorum. From your point of view homosexuality is comparable to murder, terrorism etc. YOU think it is a crime, at least you sound very much like it. This post shows your ignorance and prejudice.Preacher said:To allow gay marriages would hurt and cheapen the institution of marriage. To hurt the institution of marriage would be to weaken the institution of the family. To weaken the family would be to weaken all individuals in the family. To weaken all the individuals in all the families would be to hurt the nation. Common sense, bub. It is not in the best interests of the nation to allow by law for a new legal entity which would harm its citizenry. We do that, we might as well make make murder, kidnapping, terrorism, robbery and other such fun things legal as well.