Squadron Makeup

[Quarto]

THe Cerberus was based on the jeep-carriers of the Kilrathi war (eg Tarawa) so its purpose is basically the same as the jeep-carriers, do as much damage as possible before getting destroyed.

Huh? Whatever gave you the idea that the Hades-class is based on the CVEs?

 

[Guardian]

I always got the impression the Cerberus was more a refinement of the Waterloo class heavy crusier capable of working independantly of the main fleet and as flagship of smaller task forces with enough fighters for more than just defense and plenty of guns for ship to ship action. Unlike the Tallahasse which had the guns but only enough fighters to recon and escort itself not preform a strike mission for the crusier.

 

[Iceman16]

Huh? Whatever gave you the idea that the Hades-class is based on the CVEs?

from this site http://wcmdf.solsector.net/confed_capships_hi.htm

"The Hades is the resurrection of the Kilrathi War era "jeep" carriers, notably the Tarawa class, that brought speed, fighters and a decent armament into the mix. The Hades represents the latest jack-of-all trades capital ship. Decent squadron capacity, decent anti-fighter/anti-ship armament, and great speed for a ship of it's size. The internal structure is rather complex, unlike the relatively simple Midway class, and the external hull is definitely unconventional. Turrets seem to poke out of the hull in the strangest places, and at the wierdest angles. Armament placement was a big criticism when the ship was first reviewed, since none of the weapons seem to have the field of fire that the Midway class' weapons had, due mostly to the odd shape of the hull. In practice, I have found the turrets, though numerous, to not be quite as effective because of the hull design. There are several "holes" in the defense that you should be aware of when flying CAP for a Hades class vessel. Keep enemies away from the lower rear quarter of the ship. Due to her design as a strike cruiser, most of the weapons have been designed to sacrifice rear protection for forward hitting power. Try to herd the enemies towards the forward dorsal area, where nearly fifty percent of the turrets have fields of fire. As a strike cruiser the Hades has yet to prove that her unconventional design and mission requirements will prove successful, but she definitely has potential. (TCE)"

 

[Bandit LOAF]

The reference to CVE's being "Tarawa-class" should be the first sign that that isn't necessarily a very good source of continuity.

 

[Haesslich]

Eh, it reminded me more of the fighter-carrying Kilrathi cruisers of the WC1/2 era - expensive ships that did have enough punch to allow them to do specific strike missions, then run like hell after the job was done, when you couldn't spare a carrier for the job.

In other words, they're perfect for Special Ops missions.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

As I pointed out in another thread, "WC1/2 era" is a miscategorization -- WC2 is a whole lot closer in the timeline to WC3 and 4 than it is to WC1.

But yeah, the special thing about the Tarawa-type ships is that they're really cheap... and the Cerberus is anything but.

 

[Edfilho]

Loaf, even though the WC1/2 thing is wrong from a purely chronological POV, it works in a conceptual approach.

The Cerberus looks like a Hot Rod. It looks fast even while stopped. I still think it should carry a few more fighters, but it did a great job in WCSO with what, 8 pilots?

 

[Bandit LOAF]

It's a tiny little ship (that *isn't* a carrier!) -- 30 fighters plus shuttles is stretching the bounds of credibility as is.

 

[Delance]

And since we are in the subject, LOAF, what is the largets fighter complement of a non-carrier that you know of?

And the smallest complement of an actualc carrier? It would be interesting to compare those numbers, because a) lots of ships carry fighters and b) carriers are rare.

 

[Quarto]

And since we are in the subject, LOAF, what is the largets fighter complement of a non-carrier that you know of?

Including dreadnoughts, which have a tendency to be bigger than carriers, and sometimes carry quite a lot of fighters?

And the smallest complement of an actualc carrier?

Unless LOAF can think of some very obscure carrier design, I would guess that the smallest is the Ranger class' 40 fighter compliment. The pirate escort carrier from False Colors might have had a smaller compliment, I don't remember... but it was such a roughshod conversion that I don't know if you could consider it an actual carrier.

 

[Guardian]

I actaully don't think the fighter complment of Cerberus is pushing it given the complments of other ships of a similar size in the WC universe. Waterloo class ships boasted 40 fighters and where only 503 m in lenght. The Victory was 720 meters in lenght and had forty fighters. I don't remember the Tarawa's size but she boasted 45 plus room for 10 landing craft with some creative juggling. So a ship 777m should be able to handle 30 fighters and 4 shuttles with alittle smart desiging.

 

[Moonsword]

The difference is the Hades-class starships are lugging around a heck of a lot more in the way of heavy weapons than other ships.

Wake Island CVEs, for example, don't include tachyon cannons or heavy plasma cannons, and at least part of Cerberus's fighter complement is larger than their equivalents aboard the Tarawa.

 

[Lynx]

But on the other hand, the Tarawa-type CVE's carried heavier offensive weopnry than other carriers. From the top of my head I rembember It has at least one quad barreled heavy neutron turret on the bow and a few particle cannons, which is quite impressive for a carrier of that size.

 

[Eder]

IIRC, from counting the ships from Bear's first training exercise with the Tarawa's wing, you end up with 42-45 ships, which is a pretty decent compliment for something cheap and small (it's a converted transport, and the largest transport we know in the WCU is still pretty small).

The flight deck wasn't the greatest ever, though, meaning you probably can't operate any ship you want to out of a Tarawa-type CVE. Maybe this is the major difference to dedicated light carriers like the Ranger or fighter-carrying cruisers like the Waterloo (Do we ever see a Waterloo with anything larger or more modern than a Crossbow? The Crossbow was pretty small for a bomber) in terms of fighter complement.

 

[Moonsword]

If it can carry a Crossbow, it can carry a Hellcat or an Arrow, most likely. We don't see it to the best of my knowledge, but it's certainly plausible.

 

[Eder]

Well, yup, I don't think any of those would require more room or equipment to operate than a Crossbow would.

 

[Death]

Waterloo class cruisers, in general, didn't carry anything heavier than medium fighters (Rapier IIs, in this case). The Gettysburg carrying Crossbows was an unusual situation, possibly being used because of the ready availability of cruisers, at least compared to carriers, so sparing one for a test platform would be less of a gap in the front lines.

As for the Tarawa-type CVEs, it's specifically noted that they're unable to operate larger ships, which is why they had the 2-seat Sabre bomber variant, in place of the Broadswords carried by regular carriers for bomber duty.

 

[Haesslich]

Waterloo class cruisers, in general, didn't carry anything heavier than medium fighters (Rapier IIs, in this case). The Gettysburg carrying Crossbows was an unusual situation, possibly being used because of the ready availability of cruisers, at least compared to carriers, so sparing one for a test platform would be less of a gap in the front lines.

As for the Tarawa-type CVEs, it's specifically noted that they're unable to operate larger ships, which is why they had the 2-seat Sabre bomber variant, in place of the Broadswords carried by regular carriers for bomber duty.

Indeed - the bombers seem to be based mostly off the fleet 'heavy' carriers, at least as far as we've seen in universe, and the smaller ships are (for the most part) incapable of carrying them, either because they're pretty big (like Broadswords), the equipment required to support them is more massive or specialized.... or because it's hard for a smaller ship to carry the muntions which make a bomber special. In a word: torpedoes.

Besides, one should remember the mission of most cruisers - they're there to defend ships, or to deliver strikes of their own. This precludes the need for a large bomber complement, at least for the most part - a few are fine, but they're not meant to hit things as hard as a carrier is, at least not using fighters. In that role, medium and light fighters are probably the most that are required, unless the ship is meant to do a lot of raiding behind the lines, like the Cerberus.

The main problem with the Cerberus carrying a lot of fighters, however, is probably due to the fact it (like the Tarawa) doesn't have a lot of internal space available - most of it's dedicated to guns, engines, or armor... though the engines are probably the worst offender in THAT craft, followed by its huge plasma gun.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Sorry, all, not sure how I got behind on this thread.

And since we are in the subject, LOAF, what is the largets fighter complement of a non-carrier that you know of?

Hmm. Offhand I'd have to go with the Confederation Starbase from Wing Commander II -- which can carry a complement of 350 fighters.

And the smallest complement of an actualc carrier? It would be interesting to compare those numbers, because a) lots of ships carry fighters and b) carriers are rare.

As Quarto mentioned, the Ranger-class light carriers (TCS Victory) probably have the smallest fighter complement -- 40 fighters. The other example he's thinking of, the Bonadventure, was a "converted ore carrier (meaning transport)" that was actually deemed unusuable as a carrier by the Landreich government... but for the record it carried twenty (pirate) fighters.

I actaully don't think the fighter complment of Cerberus is pushing it given the complments of other ships of a similar size in the WC universe. Waterloo class ships boasted 40 fighters and where only 503 m in lenght. The Victory was 720 meters in lenght and had forty fighters. I don't remember the Tarawa's size but she boasted 45 plus room for 10 landing craft with some creative juggling. So a ship 777m should be able to handle 30 fighters and 4 shuttles with alittle smart desiging.

The difference between the Tarawa and the Cerberus is that the Tarawa was a dedicated carrier... while the Cerberus was a cruiser, designed to be armed and armored for line warfare (it also presumably dedicated a lot of space to supporting its unusually large/fast engines).

But on the other hand, the Tarawa-type CVE's carried heavier offensive weopnry than other carriers. From the top of my head I rembember It has at least one quad barreled heavy neutron turret on the bow and a few particle cannons, which is quite impressive for a carrier of that size.

I think most of that is supposed to be lighter defensive weaponry -- Kruger's tactics at Hell Hole not withstanding, the CVEs almost certainly weren't designed for ship to ship actions.

IIRC, from counting the ships from Bear's first training exercise with the Tarawa's wing, you end up with 42-45 ships, which is a pretty decent compliment for something cheap and small (it's a converted transport, and the largest transport we know in the WCU is still pretty small).

Three squadrons of fifteen each, plus one fighter for the Wing Commander. Larger 'heavy transports' are mentioned occasionally, though.

The Gettysburg carrying Crossbows was an unusual situation, possibly being used because of the ready availability of cruisers, at least compared to carriers, so sparing one for a test platform would be less of a gap in the front lines.

My take on this is that the Crossbow may have been *designed* for this purpose -- service on smaller ships (the Shrike in Prophecy has a similar notation in its fiction blurb). It's significantly smaller than the Broadsword, but maintains most of the same functionality. It also fits into the timeline properly -- Confed was testing the Crossbows at the same time it was introducing the CVEs.

 

[Edfilho]

I've fallen behind too...
LOAF, you're right, 30 is a lot for a ship as big as the Cerberus, BUT it should be able to carry a few more (total 40-45) to fit the concept. Considering how other cruisers had some fighters just to cover their asses, 30 is not that much. Granted, the Rangers had 40, but they aren't supposed to go into the action, like the Hades are.