Space sim games (SW Episode II Spoilers)

junior

Spaceman
Heh heh.
Have to agree with you about the majority of the authors they've got writing. It always amazes me how much some people gush about Kevin Anderson. I read his Jedi Academy and couldn't believe how bad it was.
As far as novels go, "Splinter" was the first. There was also a Han Solo trilogy that was written waaaaaay back when, and details his adventures in a place called the Corporate Sector, and I believe they took place before A New Hope. There might have also been a couple more novels, although I'm not certain.
The first of the 'modern' series of novels (and the first set post-RotJ) was, indeed, Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy, and imho, they're pretty good books. He was also allowed to write the last two books before the current NJO series started, and I enjoyed those as well.
Unfortunately, those are the ONLY Star Wars novels that I've enjoyed. I've read Anderson's Jedi Academy trilogy, Truce at Bakura (don't remember who wrote it), and R.A. Salvatore's NJO book (the first one). I can honestly say that I didn't care much for any of them. And don't even get me started on the Dark Empire limited series from Dark Horse comics.
*shudder*
On the bright side, Episode 2 seems to invalidate some of the stuff from Jedi Academy.
Hee hee.

Coruscant MAY have appeared in the old sourcebooks for WEG's Star Wars RPG. I'm not talking about the novel sourcebooks, but rather referring to the older Imperial Sourcebook, which came out long before any of the post-RotJ novels were written. Either Coruscant is mentioned, or there's a conspicous absence of any mention of the name of the Imperial Capital. I'd have to double-check to be sure which one it was.
IMHO, one of the neat things about Zahn's writing is that he was willing to take all of the pre-existing military ships that WEG had worked into their RPG and incorporate them into his novels. While I enjoyed his books because of his writing, I thought it was also neat to be able to see everything that WEG had created incorporated into the setting. I suspect that if some of the other authors had been allowed to write the first novel, then the military ships of the EU would be quite different.
I also get a kick out of seeing the occasional individual who claims that Zahn invented all of them.
 

junior

Spaceman
Originally posted by Ghost


Why?
I don't want to say too much right now to avoid movie spoilers, but the presence of the Geonosian's secret ultimate weapon seems to invalidate certain parts of the Jedi Academy trilogy backstory.
 

junior

Spaceman
Originally posted by Ghost
Bevel Lemelisk?
Its been long enough since I read the novels that the names don't really mean anything anymore. I remember the basic plotlines, and have vague memories of the characters, but that's about it. Who exactly was Bevel Lemelisk?
 

Wedge009

Rogue Leader
Originally posted by LeHah
There was the Marvel Star Wars comics though...
Admittedly, I don't care much for the comics, although I know some characters were used in the X-Wing series.

Originally posted by junior
I read his Jedi Academy and couldn't believe how bad it was.
While Mr Anderson's stuff is far from the best, IMHO, of the books I've read, I dislike "The Crystal Star" (Vonda McIntyre) and "Children of the Jedi" (Barbara Hambly) the most.

Originally posted by junior
There was also a Han Solo trilogy that was written waaaaaay back when, and details his adventures in a place called the Corporate Sector, and I believe they took place before A New Hope.
I only saw those (and a Lando series) very recently, so I thought they were new.

Originally posted by junior
Truce at Bakura (don't remember who wrote it)
Kathy Tyres. Although I didn't like the idea of the Si'ruuk (spelling?) using 'life energy', I think she's the best of the female authors who have written Star Wars novels.

Originally posted by junior
On the bright side, Episode 2 seems to invalidate some of the stuff from Jedi Academy.
I might say more on this after I actually see Episode II on Saturday. But I fail to see how Episode I invalidated anything (nothing major, at any rate), I remember numerous claims about that.

Originally posted by junior
IMHO, one of the neat things about Zahn's writing is that he was willing to take all of the pre-existing military ships that WEG had worked into their RPG and incorporate them into his novels. While I enjoyed his books because of his writing, I thought it was also neat to be able to see everything that WEG had created incorporated into the setting.
I liked Zahn because he was able mix several plotlines together and maintain a balance between the presentations of all the characters or types of characters. I think he went a bit overboard in the "Hand of Thrawn" duology, though. While each of his original trilogy had a decent resolution at the end of each novel, the "Hand of Thrawn" duology all seem to point to the last 100 or so pages, the climax felt a bit rushed to me. But "Vision of the Future" was already approaching 700 pages, anyway!

I also like Michael Stackpole's work too, and Aaron Allston's. Go the Claw Marks author! :)
 

junior

Spaceman
Originally posted by Wedge009
I might say more on this after I actually see Episode II on Saturday. But I fail to see how Episode I invalidated anything (nothing major, at any rate), I remember numerous claims about that.
I haven't heard any of the episode 1 arguments. As far as episode 2 goes, what I was referring to basically refers to a surprise toward the end of the film that you'd never miss if it were cut, but has some interesting ramifications.

As far as Stackpole goes, the only things I've read by him were some of his Battletech novels.
 

Wedge009

Rogue Leader
Those claims were most likely unjustified.

I haven't read Stackpole's BattleTech novels, but I think they and his Star Wars novels are similar in that they were both inspired by games. In any case, I think you should give the X-Wing series a try, I liked them because they focused on the space combat and military side of the SW universe.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Ok, here we go:

According to "Expanded Universe" crap and the West End Games D6 RPG, Bevel Lemelisk was the main architect of the original Death Star. It blew up, the Emperor gave him one more chance, Bevil made Death Star II (replacing the thermal and main ports that destroyed the original with tiny almost microscopic "pours" all over the skin of the damned thing) and that blew up to. The Emperor then killed him, cloned him, killed him, cloned him, etc.

I'll open my suitcase and look in my WEG SW RPG books to confirm the date on "Coruscant". I believe junior is correct, though.

The "Corporate Sector" series (Ex: "Han Solo At Star's End", the best of the series) was written between ANH and ESB and takes place before ANH. It's one of the better of the spin-off books, since it's irrevreant, has one damned good villian and is completely pointless and fun.

The reason I almost went to DragonCon last year wasn't to hang out with LOAF and his buds, but to spit in Kevin J Anderson's face. I really hate his books.

Episode 1 invalidated the entire "Jedi Academy" idea from it's inception. Yoda says that Qui-Gon can only have a single Padawan in his charge, which is not the case when Luke finds people like Kyp and company in Anderson's "Wipe Shit On Paper" novel, Jedi Search. Then there's "Midichlorians" which undoes Anderson's dumb "Force Testing" machine that has Luke flying across rooms when he probes his sister's mind in the aforementioned book.

Episode 2 was pretty lame IMHO. Though it's better than Episode 1, it lacks the basic fluidity that the story needed. Things just seemed to happen "Look! An assassin! Get him! Wait! She's Dead! It was another assassin! Chase him! Go that way! I'll seduce Portman!". It just jumped around and a lot of things went unexplained (Ex: why do Geonosians dislike Jedi and Seantors enough to put them in an ARENA?!) and motives seemed muddled.

I am getting sick of what LOAF said was "[Lucas] making everything look a little bit like something in the previous trilogy". It's beating us with a dead stick already.
 

Frosty

a full fledged GF
The EU is largely evil, and only seeks to change what Star Wars is about. Authors get too big a kick out of making up stupid things, such as that lame rule about using the Force to make a lightsaber function and so on.

A large number of EU-only starships, people, and rules of the universe should be disregarded out of hand. The fact that TPM and AotC have overwritten some EU "facts" should illustrate how worthless it is.

If we don't see it on screen, it better make a lot of sense.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
I'm kind of divided on the EU stuff.

On one hand, Frosty is absolutely correct -- it's *not* what the Star Wars movies are about... you can't let the EU stuff color your perceptions of them, ever.

On the other hand, it's a very well put together sci fi universe -- Lucas Licensing does a good job of having everyone play well together...
 

junior

Spaceman
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
I'm kind of divided on the EU stuff.

On one hand, Frosty is absolutely correct -- it's *not* what the Star Wars movies are about... you can't let the EU stuff color your perceptions of them, ever.

On the other hand, it's a very well put together sci fi universe -- Lucas Licensing does a good job of having everyone play well together...
Except those stupid comics. The first Dark Empire was silly, but could be fit into the EU.
Barely.
I skimmed through the GN Dark Empire 2 collection, and while I don't remember a thing about it (except something about a tree Jedi that was storing hundreds of lightsabers), I do recollect wondering exactly how something that disregarded the EU so utterly and completely could have been published.

I've heard the "lightsabers channel the Force" theory before, although the two people that I've heard it from have ascribed it to Lucas himself. The funny thing was, at the same time they were saying that, Starwars.com had an explanation of how lightsabers work that was copied verbatim from the WEG Sourcebook for their RPG, and that made it quite clear that lightsabers were purely mechanical in nature. Needless to say, that took the wind out of the "lightsabers channel the Force" proponents.

Episode II also messes with the Thrawn books, if only because AotC pretty much rewrites everything we 'knew' about the clones prior to this. Of course, Zahn had only used the popular theory about the Clone Wars. Not much that he could have done about that. And some elements of it could still prove to be correct.

On the subject of EU stuff, I'm glad that Zahn's stuff is the best remembered by fans. Thrawn has pretty close to cult status, and some of his other creations are only a step or two behind.

At any rate, those who have been following Star Wars Galaxies know that Corellia, Tanus(?), and Dathomir are part of the roll-out. Somehow I'm not overly excited at the prospect of a planet with Force users who ride Rancors.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
The EU stuff does a good job of covering its own ass later on <G> They're good at sticking in passing references or doing a Star Wars Tales comic or somesuch to explain various supposed errors...
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
I liked Dark Empire. It tried not to be Star Wars, but "What if Star Wars was done in Heavy Metal?". I've always been iffy about the tye-dye coloring, but the art is gorgeously simplistic and angular and very angry. It fit the darkness of the story.

Dark Empire 2 was, however, pretty damn bad, though Sedriss (Palpatine's Right Hand Dweeb) was pretty cool since he looked like Iggy Pop in Star Wars like David Bowie in Dune.

"Lightsabers channel the Force" is automaticly bullshit, since Han uses Luke's to open the tauntaun in ESB. So, right there, that takes down that idiotic idea...

Technically, and this is a stretch, both Zahn and Episode 2 are right. Zahn originally approached Lucasfilm about what the Clone Wars were about and what happened and who was who and whatnot; they gave the best answers they could at that time to Zahn and he peiced it together. So, the offical by-line about which is more offical is moot. After all, if it conflicted with something major, even that early on, the book would never see print. On top of that, I found Zahn's works much more entertaining than Episode 2.

Expanded Universe, a relatively new term, is largely goddamned fucking evil like Tim Curry in Legend. The only things from EU I would consider worthy of the SW name is all of Zahn's materials, Steve Perry's "Shadows Of The Empire" and maybe Dark Empire.

It is sad though, that Lucasfilm just whores out Star Wars material in such high and bad quantities these days. I don't think it's any more or less powerful than what came out in '77, but we have more venues of profit in '02 and they just seem to be there to rake in huge sums of money.

Another big thing lost is the sense of "realism" in the prequels. Anyone else notice all the ships are sparkling new and shiney? Admittedly, this is before the Empire let stuff fall into decay, but the lack of it gives a sense of gleaming bullshit.
 

Filler

General Graphics Guy
that got to me too.
apparently lucas told the guy who designed the naboo ships that it was like a victorian era compared to present day where aesthetics are the prime factor in design.

The 'bomber' in the start of ep2 was too much for me :(
 

Marcml30

Spaceman
Originally posted by LeHah
It is sad though, that Lucasfilm just whores out Star Wars material in such high and bad quantities these days. I don't think it's any more or less powerful than what came out in '77, but we have more venues of profit in '02 and they just seem to be there to rake in huge sums of money.
I'm sure the company's shareholders are happy. I know I'd be if I owned their stock. Why is this such a bad thing? There at least seems to be a standard of some sort that they're trying to maintain. Sure, you'll get some good and some bad but that holds true with anything. I'm sure that at least one of the WC novels might be considered less than high quality and they're not pumped out in huge quantities.
 

junior

Spaceman
Originally posted by LeHah
"Lightsabers channel the Force" is automaticly bullshit, since Han uses Luke's to open the tauntaun in ESB. So, right there, that takes down that idiotic idea...
The explanation is that, whether he knows it or not, Han is Force Sensitive, and 'unconsciously channels the Force' when he uses Luke's lightsaber.
No, I didn't say it made a whole lot of sense.
Nor do I agree with it at all.


Technically, and this is a stretch, both Zahn and Episode 2 are right. Zahn originally approached Lucasfilm about what the Clone Wars were about and what happened and who was who and whatnot; they gave the best answers they could at that time to Zahn and he peiced it together. So, the offical by-line about which is more offical is moot. After all, if it conflicted with something major, even that early on, the book would never see print. On top of that, I found Zahn's works much more entertaining than Episode 2.
Zahn's background basicly matches up with what fans believed at the time. Its still possible that things could work out along that tangent in Episode 3, I suppose. There's nothing to indicate that the cloners are being completely honest in their dealings with the Republic.
On a related tangent, Star Wars Galaxies is using 'cloning facilities' as an explanation for why your character comes back to life. They've apparently been directed to make the cloning facilities look like underground facilities, as cloning is illegal within the Empire. That seems like an odd course of action for a government that was saved by clones. Perhaps something bad does happen in the meantime?


It is sad though, that Lucasfilm just whores out Star Wars material in such high and bad quantities these days. I don't think it's any more or less powerful than what came out in '77, but we have more venues of profit in '02 and they just seem to be there to rake in huge sums of money.
I like X-Wing, though. I think the assault gunboat (which is the one big EU contribution from X-Wing) has a spot in the Star Wars setting when properly utilized. I DON'T like the idea of the TIE Advanced, or the two prototypes introduced in TIE Fighter. Its not that I think they're bad ships - rather, I don't think they have a place within the Star Wars setting. Nonetheless, its absolutely disgusting to see the comments from people who want TIE Defenders and Missile Boats included in the space expansion for SWG.

Another big thing lost is the sense of "realism" in the prequels. Anyone else notice all the ships are sparkling new and shiney? Admittedly, this is before the Empire let stuff fall into decay, but the lack of it gives a sense of gleaming bullshit.
The insides of the ships, yes.
And the gleaming silver on the Naboo liners doesn't help much, either.
But the exteriors of the war machines for the Grand Army of the Republic were perfect, I thought. The walkers that we saw in the movie looked very much like something that might evolve into the fearsome AT-AT, and the wedge-shaped starships looked an awful lot like one might imagine an early Star Destroyer to be.
Speaking of them, anyone have a name for the things yet?
 

Ghost

Emperor
Originally posted by LeHah
IDavid Bowie in Dune.
Wrong British, it was Sting, not David Bowie.


Originally posted by junior

The explanation is that, whether he knows it or not, Han is Force Sensitive, and 'unconsciously channels the Force' when he uses Luke's lightsaber.
You need to be Force Sensitive to ignite a lightsaber?, i thought that was some crystals and mechanics parts.


Originally posted by junior

I like X-Wing, though. I think the assault gunboat (which is the one big EU contribution from X-Wing) has a spot in the Star Wars setting when properly utilized. I DON'T like the idea of the TIE Advanced, or the two prototypes introduced in TIE Fighter. Its not that I think they're bad ships - rather, I don't think they have a place within the Star Wars setting. Nonetheless, its absolutely disgusting to see the comments from people who want TIE Defenders and Missile Boats included in the space expansion for SWG.
Why don´t you like the Tie Defender, Advanced and Gunboat?
And why they must not be added to the SWG?
Just they look like any other ship in the Empire army (aside of the shields), but there are some books that have Tie ships with engines


Originally posted by junior

The walkers that we saw in the movie looked very much like something that might evolve into the fearsome AT-AT, and the wedge-shaped starships looked an awful lot like one might imagine an early Star Destroyer to be.
Speaking of them, anyone have a name for the things yet?
Do you really expect to see Veers designing the AT-AT (like some book claimed) or the Victory star Destroyer, or the Black Dreagnought Fleet form Thrawn´s Trilogy, thanks God that the EU doesn´t contradict itself too much
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Originally posted by junior

I like X-Wing, though. I think the assault gunboat (which is the one big EU contribution from X-Wing) has a spot in the Star Wars setting when properly utilized. I DON'T like the idea of the TIE Advanced, or the two prototypes introduced in TIE Fighter. Its not that I think they're bad ships - rather, I don't think they have a place within the Star Wars setting. Nonetheless, its absolutely disgusting to see the comments from people who want TIE Defenders and Missile Boats included in the space expansion for SWG.
But the TIE Advanced was in A New Hope... <G>

I always hated the Defender, but it seems to have made a niche for itself in the Star Wars canon... and I never really had a problem with the missile boat.
 
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