Space Marshall Tolwyn ... ever fool?

MjavTheGray

Spaceman
Hello guys. Wanna have one more stupid question? Here's the one:

What (by your opinion) was Tolwyn thinking about when reinstating Blair?
Couldn't he foresee that 'very persisten colonel' would never side with his plans?
Couldn't he foresee that 'thorn in his back' would never be a murder?

So... tell me. What do you think of Tolwyn? Was he an ever fool, never thinking of the future?
Or was he foreseeing the Blair's defection and planning to use that defection to advance his plans?
Or maybe someone has some another opinion?..
 
IMHO, Tolwyn never expected Blair to go along with his plan.
The idea behind reinstating Blair had a number of "stages":

First he reinstates Blair - "I'm doing anything I can - including reinstating Cofed's greatest hero of all times"

Then:
If Blair dies, Tolwyn goes to the senate - "You see! even the Heart of the Tiger could not convince the UBW to stop their evil ways - they even killed him! we must go to war!" - success.
This also works if blair just fails, even without dying.

If Blair changes sides - Tolwyn again address the senate - "Here, even Confed's greatest had gone evil - we have no choice! we must go to war!"

and if Blair, surprisingly, joins up with him - even better - "Even Blair agrees with me - we must go to war!"

Remember that Tolwyn always hides his true intentions from Blair - right from the beginning.
 
Tolwyn knew his ideas weren't popular. At the end of FC he talks to Bondarevsky and doesn't let him in on the whole truth because he knows he'd never go along with it. He has a similar thought about Richards as well. These are two people Tolwyn trusts a great deal and if he is unwilling to think they would go along with him then there is little chance to believe that Blair would switch. IIRC there was discussion about Blair, I forget the exact content of it but I think Seether was annoyed that Blair could not be brought over.
 
What (by your opinion) was Tolwyn thinking about when reinstating Blair?
Couldn't he foresee that 'very persisten colonel' would never side with his plans?
Couldn't he foresee that 'thorn in his back' would never be a murder?

So... tell me. What do you think of Tolwyn? Was he an ever fool, never thinking of the future?
Or was he foreseeing the Blair's defection and planning to use that defection to advance his plans?
Or maybe someone has some another opinion?.

Well, a few things to consider. One is that Blair isn't necessarily Johnny Do-gooder... we're talking about a man who was (somewhat quickly) convinced that killing billions and billions of Kilathi civilians was the ideal way to end the war. Angel's death was enough to move Blair from opposing the Behemoth to dropping the T-Bomb himself... and Tolwyn was certainly orchestrating similar outrages on the part of the Border Worlds' for Blair to see.

He also knows that Blair is a very prideful person - once the truth is (slowly) revealed, will Blair be willing to accept *his own* involvement in Tolwyn's plan? Can the man who insisted he needed to destroy K'Tithrak Mang himself be humbled enough to realize that he'd personally been tricked into actively supporting Tolwyn's plan? Remember that Eisen's defecction upset things... Blair didn't go through the whole process that Tolwyn had planned.

Also, we should note that there's a much more immediate payoff - Tolwyn wanted Blair's support *immediately* for his case in the Senate... whether or not Blair was 'converted' could happen much later. The first goal was to have the great popular hero stand up and say that he'd seen Border Worlds aggression unchecked on the frontier... which was exactly what Tolwyn had gone through hoops to show him.
 
Just one little comment: Blair can be no do-gooder. But... Kilrathi Armada was hours away from complete destruction of Earth. That could be convincing enough to anyone,not only to Blair who had lost Angel recently.
And there is a great difference between two men:
Towlyn wanted to be THE ONE WHO WON THE WAR.
Blair just wanted to SAVE THOSE WHO WOULD DIE. If he wanted to be THE GREAT HERO, why did he take Maniac with him? I won't believe he considered Todd to be just cannon fodder.
Humbled? But he WAS humbled to accept a farmer's life, wasn't he?
And the K'Tithrak Mang case... I am sure that was not pride but desperation. Blair did see that Tolwyn has a lust for glory and would never make public knowlendge that Captain Blair is not a "coward of the K'Tithrak Mang". What choice did he have? You fly that patrol, Tolwyn is a hero again, and Blair is sent at backwater station again - and who cares that the 'claw's destruction was not his fault? So, I'd repeat: K'Tithrak Mang was not pride, but desperation.
But Tolwyn... Yes. He would be sure it was pride.
And Tolwyn... Yes. He would be sure that T-Bomb mission was pride, too.
And Eisen... Yes. He was an affect on Blair's decision. A great affect.

So... Blair was a triple mistake of Tolwyn? Old bastard never did truly understand a man who never wanted any great glory.
 
Kind of a typical bad guy storyline to me...

Tolwyn wanted to convert Blair over to his way of thinking. He made a tactical error in choosing Blair, but I really believed that he thought that Blair was a lock to joining the cause.

Remember, Blair wasn't the only war hero Tolwyn wanted to convert. Seether even mentions in the book that Eisen not going along with their plans had been a huge setback, and ultimately led to Paulsen being put in charge of the Lexington. Additionally, we also had Maniac, and Vagabond (who was recalled from the reserves, the same as Blair) that Tolwyn attempted to recruit.

I think it is important to point out that Tolwyn was obviously jaded by a long period of warfare, and he was more inclined to think that people who had been involved in the same desperate struggle would naturally go along with "improving humanity." He was wrong about a lot more than just Blair.
 
IMHO, Tolwyn never expected Blair to go along with his plan.
The idea behind reinstating Blair had a number of "stages":

First he reinstates Blair - "I'm doing anything I can - including reinstating Cofed's greatest hero of all times"

Then:
If Blair dies, Tolwyn goes to the senate - "You see! even the Heart of the Tiger could not convince the UBW to stop their evil ways - they even killed him! we must go to war!" - success.
This also works if blair just fails, even without dying.

If Blair changes sides - Tolwyn again address the senate - "Here, even Confed's greatest had gone evil - we have no choice! we must go to war!"

and if Blair, surprisingly, joins up with him - even better - "Even Blair agrees with me - we must go to war!"

Remember that Tolwyn always hides his true intentions from Blair - right from the beginning.

Great descripiton give Tolwyn at set of dark robes and he's set to conquer the galaxy! :)
 
Just one little comment: Blair can be no do-gooder. But... Kilrathi Armada was hours away from complete destruction of Earth. That could be convincing enough to anyone,not only to Blair who had lost Angel recently.

Yes, but Blair didn't know that when he accepted the mission... nor is it easy to make a direct correlation between destroying the home planet and actually stopping Thrakhath's fleet.

And there is a great difference between two men:
Towlyn wanted to be THE ONE WHO WON THE WAR.

I don't think that's especially fair to Tolwyn - he was a much more complex character than this (even in the specific, crazd context of the Behemoth - False Colors gives a good bit of background about why that came about...)

Blair just wanted to SAVE THOSE WHO WOULD DIE. If he wanted to be THE GREAT HERO, why did he take Maniac with him? I won't believe he considered Todd to be just cannon fodder.

I'm not really sure what you mean here. Maniac was the wingman for a number of reasons - he was one of the few Victory pilots checked out on the Excalibur, he was one of the top pilots onthe carrier and someone whose talent Blair grudgingly respected. To play devil's advocate here, what does the fact that Blair chose to carry only one T-Bomb instead of the two provided for his wing say about his intentions?

Humbled? But he WAS humbled to accept a farmer's life, wasn't he?

He returned home to his family farm like he'd planned to all along. The war was over, there wasn't some big choice here.

And the K'Tithrak Mang case... I am sure that was not pride but desperation. Blair did see that Tolwyn has a lust for glory and would never make public knowlendge that Captain Blair is not a "coward of the K'Tithrak Mang". What choice did he have? You fly that patrol, Tolwyn is a hero again, and Blair is sent at backwater station again - and who cares that the 'claw's destruction was not his fault? So, I'd repeat: K'Tithrak Mang was not pride, but desperation.[//QUOTE]

Blair's name was already cleared by this point, he wasn't going to be sent back to the ISS. He flew the mission to make a show of what a hero he was... not out of any personal or group necessity.
 
In the end, Blair had a lot of reasons to go through with the Kilrah run; be it due to the strong possibility that, if he didn't, the Kilrathi would have won the war was one of them. Another could be that it was partly driven by vengeance, tempered by the knowledge that someone would've flown the mission regardless... and maybe fail in the process. Or else it's because he ended up believing what Tolwyn said, regarding the need to destroy the Kilrathi homeworld in order to prove enough of a shock to disorient and demoralize the Kilrathi people into surrendering, in the way the strategists behind the Hiroshima and Nagasaki drops were supposed to have done so for WW2 Japan.

Whether or not Blair would've willingly gone along with the Black Lance plan was beside the point - Tolwyn needed a personal (and at least on the surface, neutral) agent out there who couldn't be used against him as an example of cronyism; after all, Towlyn was the one who basically had Blair sent to ISS following the Tiger's Claw downing. If Blair had seen the "Border Worlds" engaging in atrocities (destroying space stations, unarmed civilian medical transports, unleashing bioweapons), then that would have been enough to tip the Senate over into a full declaration of war, one which would've provided enough cover for The Plan to go through. If Blair joined willingly, then so much the better; and if it hadn't been for the mistakes made on the parts of others (those who failed to convince Eisen to come over, Paulsen's decision to send Blair after Maniac and Eisen - people with which Blair had served for years, Seether's first encounter with Blair in the bar on Nephele and his subsequent attitude issue which may have put a burr into Blair's hide regarding the morality of the Black Lance), he may well have gone over given a bit more of the proper 'coaching'.
 
We all seem pretty stuck on Blair. Not to be critical, but lets think about the Admiral for a minute. The advertisements for WC4 calls Tolwyn "One man, derranged by war."

Tolwyn had seen over 40 years of war with the Kilrathi. Add that to the time he spent fighting the Pilgrims, and thats a lot of life to spend struggling for survival. I do not think Tolwyn was a fool. He was famous as one of the best military tacticians that Confed had.

The man was addicted to war, to calculating victory and conquest. What does he get after all his hard work? Exactly the opposite to what he wanted. Blair was the big hero, and Tolwyn was given a job heading up ISS... funny isn't that a turn-around from WC2?

I'm willing to bet that he'd planned it to work one of two ways:

1. Blair sees whats truly going on, defects, is either killed or captured, and is used as an example of the deterioration of security and a need to go to war w/ the Border Worlds (as he did in the losing ending).

2. Blair is asassinated by Seether and a Border World's "agent" is blamed. Thus Tolwyn uses it to make political headway.

Even with all the excellent points about Blair's arrogence and pride, I still have a hard time believing that Converting Blair was in Tolwyn's plan.
 
(...) To play devil's advocate here, what does the fact that Blair chose to carry only one T-Bomb instead of the two provided for his wing say about his intentions?

The part in the WC3 novel where Blair explains why he does it (because he thinks that 2 ships without missiles would be too dangerous): Isn't that some sort of internal monologue, so that we know that these are his true intentions?
 
Even with all the excellent points about Blair's arrogence and pride, I still have a hard time believing that Converting Blair was in Tolwyn's plan.

I think the arrogance and pride points are to show that Blair is flawed, and very much an everyman character. It wouldn't be outside of his character to join the Space Nazi movement. Remember, this is the same game where we can have Blair replace Tolwyn, with Hawk as his personal Seether. Blair can go either way, and Tolwyn was counting on that moral ambiguity.
 
We all seem pretty stuck on Blair. Not to be critical, but lets think about the Admiral for a minute. The advertisements for WC4 calls Tolwyn "One man, derranged by war."

Tolwyn had seen over 40 years of war with the Kilrathi. Add that to the time he spent fighting the Pilgrims, and thats a lot of life to spend struggling for survival. I do not think Tolwyn was a fool. He was famous as one of the best military tacticians that Confed had.

The man was addicted to war, to calculating victory and conquest. What does he get after all his hard work? Exactly the opposite to what he wanted. Blair was the big hero, and Tolwyn was given a job heading up ISS... funny isn't that a turn-around from WC2?

I'm willing to bet that he'd planned it to work one of two ways:

1. Blair sees whats truly going on, defects, is either killed or captured, and is used as an example of the deterioration of security and a need to go to war w/ the Border Worlds (as he did in the losing ending).

2. Blair is asassinated by Seether and a Border World's "agent" is blamed. Thus Tolwyn uses it to make political headway.

Even with all the excellent points about Blair's arrogence and pride, I still have a hard time believing that Converting Blair was in Tolwyn's plan.

Addicted? No - he wasn't addicted to war, but rather he believed that the civilians (and particularly the professional politicians) who'd made a hash of the initial war effort weren't pulling their weight as far as preserving humanity went, so decided that the Black Lance project was the quickest way to get rid of the dead weight that'd nearly gotten everyone killed both during the outbreak of the war as well as the Armistice, as well as the aftermath. Remember - he's seen the same thing happen twice in his lifetime; the Kilrathi are assumed to be 'like humans' in their attitudes and behaviors, and so the politicians treated the Kilrathi much as they would other human societies which shared similar values and beliefs. Which meant that twice, humanity was caught on the verge of losing the war because they'd let down their guard as far as the Kilrathi were concerned, drawing down the fleet and putting everything in mothballs because there 'weren't any more threats out there'.

And Tolwyn did not head up ISS: he rather was in charge of the entire military operation through the SRA, which controlled all of Confed's military, and put him pretty much in the same position that Bainbridge was at the start of the Kilrathi War. Blair was the hero to the people, much as Tolwyn was one in the immediate aftermath of the Battle of Earth, but that wasn't the point. Being a 'hero' carries very little cachet around the politicians, or so it seems, in the WC universe. What DID matter was that he had some political influence, and then he used it as best he could by working with those who knew him best... friends and enemies both.

Blair could have been a candidate for conversion, had he been approached correctly and had events not gone so horribly wrong for any such attempts to do so. He saw how things were running down, and commented as much to Maniac during their Nephele bar conversation, and may have been a possible target for convincing had Eisen not defected and had Blair never met Seether. The approach to Eisen was botched with a 'we're all in this together' sort of conspiracy invitation, which made Blair wary as well. Seeing Seether didn't help matters, nor did Paulsen's dismissive manner. Between all that, and the way things went down (including Maniac's recording of some groundside comm transmissions) as well as the two defections... well, there wasn't much chance of Blair 'coming to Jesus' at that point.

Under other circumstances? It's quite possible he would've become a Lancer... as he effectively does if you nuke the Ella Superbase and all those civilians. And even if he did get his ass wasted, his notoriety would at least ensure that the public would want something done about those 'awful Border Worlders'.
 
Tolwyn had seen over 40 years of war with the Kilrathi. Add that to the time he spent fighting the Pilgrims, and thats a lot of life to spend struggling for survival. I do not think Tolwyn was a fool. He was famous as one of the best military tacticians that Confed had.

35 years... from his graduation and the start of the war in 2634 to the end of the war in 2669.

The man was addicted to war, to calculating victory and conquest. What does he get after all his hard work? Exactly the opposite to what he wanted. Blair was the big hero, and Tolwyn was given a job heading up ISS... funny isn't that a turn-around from WC2?

Here's where I differ from the assumption - I don't know that Tolwyn *wanted* to be the great hero. That's what *Blair*, who always had an incredibly jaded view of the Admiral, thought... but Tolwyn himself tells a completely different story in False Colors (furthermore, Blair owes his career to Tolwyn a dozen times over - though multiple events strained their personal relationship, Tolwyn can legitimately claim Blair as a succesful protege...) Tolwyn's biographer certainly thought he *deserved* to be the hero -- pointing out that if he died at Earth he would be remembered forever -- but that isn't the same thing as it being Tolwyn's sole objective.

... and as embarassing as the Behemoth incident and the ensuing court of inquiry must have been for proud Tolwyn, he was cleared of any wrongdoing and did go on to be the 'figurehead' for the surrender. Blair voluntarily faded away while Tolwyn played the MacArthur role at the surrender ceremony.

The SRA and the ISS are completely different. The SRA was a post-war joint forces initiative... something that gave Tolwyn *more* control over the military than ever (think something along the lines of the modern dayJoint Forces Command), while the ISS was the Space Coast Guard.

Even with all the excellent points about Blair's arrogence and pride, I still have a hard time believing that Converting Blair was in Tolwyn's plan.

We don't know for sure, but the way Seether describe's the reasons Eisen was selected for 'conversion' seems to match Blair exactly (decorated combat veteran, reputation for doing what was necessary, put into a command position on the Lexington).

The part in the WC3 novel where Blair explains why he does it (because he thinks that 2 ships without missiles would be too dangerous): Isn't that some sort of internal monologue, so that we know that these are his true intentions?

That's why I mentioned the devil's advocate bit - Blair simply doesn't come off well if you judge him by his actions alone without considering his thoughts (like Tolwyn taking command of the Victory or building the Behemoth in the first place.)
 
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