Shield Piercing torpedoes

[frostytheplebe]

In the Wing Commander Movie, we see the Kilrathi hammer away at the TC without much luck of penetrating her shields with torpedoes. Then the Tiger's Claw blasts an enemy capital ship without much difficulty with their torpedoes.

However then later, Paladin instructs Knight to wait for the shields to lower on the enemy capship before launching torpedoes from their broadswords... so I guess my questions are as follows:

1. Do the Confed torpedoes actually posses the ability to bypass shields, or do they simply have enough punch to bust through less advanced shielding.

2. If there is shield piercing tech, what does it involve? Special conductive alloy? A dampening field around the torpedo? Shielding ON the torpedo that resonates with the enemy shield harmonics to allows it to pass through unscathed... or none of the above?

3. Are the fighter mounted torpedoes different then the capship ones that will not allow them to pass through shielding?

 

[Delance]

Shielding ON the torpedo that resonates with the enemy shield harmonics to allows it to pass through unscathed

I think this is the case with the Phase Shields on WC2. Not sure about the movie.

 

[gevatter Lars]

I think we have here the old fiction vs dramatic effect situation. Also the movie is kinda outside the normal ficition/games to me.

IIRC Kilrathi where the first to invent/use shield piercing torpedos, though they where not that reliable. Confed developed their own version shortly after the attack on McAuliffee where the Kilrathi first used them but many could be recovered as they didn't detonate.
(I could mix up some things here. My memories aren't that well)
So to answere your first question if the Kilrathi don't penetrate the shield so Confed can't to it either. Then again its servers the dramatic effect very well so it mustn't be any logic behind it.
When looking at the games, we don't see any torpedos till WC2, again if my memories serve me right. I can't remember the Secret Mission right now.
So it could also be that this aren't the torpedos we know from WC2-5 but just capship missiles, called torpedos because the name is fitting.
I also belive that they said, in that scene you discribe "fire torpedos" while in the scene with the broadside its "load missiles".

About question 2...I think we have an definitiv answere, just know that the torpedos sinc with the shield of the target and that allows it to pass through. If its done via a shield/other kind of forcefield, special alloy or whatever...don't know.

Fighter torpedos shouldn't be different from capship ones except for size, speed and manuverbility.

 

[Dundradal]

I think we have here the old fiction vs dramatic effect situation. Also the movie is kinda outside the normal ficition/games to me.

IIRC Kilrathi where the first to invent/use shield piercing torpedos, though they where not that reliable. Confed developed their own version shortly after the attack on McAuliffee where the Kilrathi first used them but many could be recovered as they didn't detonate.

They were the first to develop and deploy phase shield-penetrating torpedoes. Confed did have a similar concept but not a weapon (remember from AS the Panama war games where a fleet of carriers deploying a hypothetical torpedo destroyed several battlewagons, however the results were later overturned by the referees).

Confed did manage to capture several examples of the Kilrathi weapon (remember one slams into the Concordia but does not explode, thanks Varni slaves!)

(I could mix up some things here. My memories aren't that well)
So to answere your first question if the Kilrathi don't penetrate the shield so Confed can't to it either. Then again its servers the dramatic effect very well so it mustn't be any logic behind it.
When looking at the games, we don't see any torpedos till WC2, again if my memories serve me right. I can't remember the Secret Mission right now.
So it could also be that this aren't the torpedos we know from WC2-5 but just capship missiles, called torpedos because the name is fitting.
I also belive that they said, in that scene you discribe "fire torpedos" while in the scene with the broadside its "load missiles".

I think this returns to our "shields vs weapons" technology cycle. Just because we don't see torpedoes used in WC1 doesn't mean they aren't in use. Weapons technology has reached a point where it is able to bypass shields, this edge is lost when newer phase shields are used and again torpedoes are the only way to get through them.

About question 2...I think we have an definitiv answere, just know that the torpedos sinc with the shield of the target and that allows it to pass through. If its done via a shield/other kind of forcefield, special alloy or whatever...don't know.

Fighter torpedos shouldn't be different from capship ones except for size, speed and manuverbility.

AS is probably the best source for explaining how torpedoes work. They lock onto the "phase frequency" of the shields and match it so that they can pass through without harm. Much like Big Duke Grecko's troops do with landing craft during BOT. If you match the phase frequency you can pass through the shield without being stopped.

 

[gevatter Lars]

I think this returns to our "shields vs weapons" technology cycle. Just because we don't see torpedoes used in WC1 doesn't mean they aren't in use. Weapons technology has reached a point where it is able to bypass shields, this edge is lost when newer phase shields are used and again torpedoes are the only way to get through them.

You mean they "paused" torpedo production because all other weapons where able to damage/penetrate shields?
Don't know about that argument. Torpedos allways had quite a warhead. So even if they don't penetrate shields they would have still been the most powerfull weapon for bombers and capships. On the other hand, we don't have a bomber parse in WC1. The Raptor is a quite heavy fighter for its time but not a bomber.
Maybe they decided that bombers where to slow or expansive so only capships would still use torpedos while for everything else they hope the fighters can do the work and they did.
Can't remember a capship of that time a Raptor couldn't handle.

They lock onto the "phase frequency" of the shields and match it so that they can pass through without harm.

That part is pretty clear but what gets sinced with the enemy shields? Is there some kind of special forcefield or the shuttles normal shield, is the hull "electrified" to sincronise?
I don't remember any answere to that question.

 

[Madman]

I think the point is more - If you have a fancy torpedo technology that can sync with the enemy shields and pass through it, then you use it, but if you then find that your normal missiles and guns will destroy the enemy - then why waste the money fitting every fighter with the torpedoes when normal guns will do. However, by wc2 the kilrathi have again developped their shields to the point where normal guns are inneffective, so out comes that expensive torpedo option. It's not a matter of putting technology on hold, or that it's more powerful, I suspect its a cost thing, remember the confederation is pumping out millions of missiles and fighters to fight this war - having the extra cost of torpedos for no better reason than because they're packing more punch is a waste of money that could be better spent on missiles or ship upgrades (see the rapier). Also I'm pretty sure the raptor is described as a bomber in Clawmarks - if it isnt then it basically is one anyway, its more a missile boat than a dog fighter!

 

[Dundradal]

You mean they "paused" torpedo production because all other weapons where able to damage/penetrate shields?
Don't know about that argument. Torpedos allways had quite a warhead. So even if they don't penetrate shields they would have still been the most powerfull weapon for bombers and capships. On the other hand, we don't have a bomber parse in WC1. The Raptor is a quite heavy fighter for its time but not a bomber.
Maybe they decided that bombers where to slow or expansive so only capships would still use torpedos while for everything else they hope the fighters can do the work and they did.
Can't remember a capship of that time a Raptor couldn't handle.

No, I'm not saying they paused on torpedo production. I'm saying we don't see them because there are other ways of getting through a capship's shields. We clearly know that torpedoes were around from WCM, it's just that ingame we have other options. We know the Broadsword was in service during WC1 timeframe since we see it in the movie. Simply because we don't see their use in WC1 doesn't mean they aren't there.

That part is pretty clear but what gets sinced with the enemy shields? Is there some kind of special forcefield or the shuttles normal shield, is the hull "electrified" to sincronise?
I don't remember any answere to that question.

AS and FC both cover shield technology to varying degrees. From what I can recall from AS, the torpedoes electronics syncs with the shields and in doing so the shields aren't able to stop it from passing through. It matches the phase pattern so that it can pass through without being disturbed. We also know that slow moving objects can pass harmlessly through phase shields as it's discussed in AS.

I think the best way to think about it is try to imagine a series of moving obstacles. They move in a specific timed pattern. The only way to successfully pass through them is to be in sync with their timing. When that is accomplished an object can pass through without harm.

I don't think there are any special alloys, weird shieldings, etc. It's just a matter of matching the timing of the shields and then being able to pass through.

 

[gevatter Lars]

The thought behind haveing torpedos was that in WC1 weapons didn't penetrate shields they are just overpowering them. Thats why I thought that Capships might still use torpedos to overcome enemy capships as quick as possible.
Fighters on the other hand could either kill an enemy or run so they won't need torpedos, that is true.

We clearly know that torpedoes were around from WCM, it's just that ingame we have other options. We know the Broadsword was in service during WC1 timeframe since we see it in the movie.

The problem I see with that is fitting movie and game together. Both are about Blair setting foot on the Claw for the first time.
That makes it quite confusing for me to either seperate things or to put them together.
In the movie torpedos where not shield piercing, why else would Paladin order to wait till they lower the shields and we see that the Claw took more then just one hit from the enemy while we know that the Kilrathi developed shieldpierceing torpedos first.
So I guess that they where still doing the old style "overpowering" of the enemy shields. Something like that was also mentioned in one of the books as beeing the fighting style for capships before the invention of the shield pierceing torpedo.

In WC1 we still overpower shields as I can't remember seeing damage on a ship before I lowered the shields but now its possible for fighters!
I think that is quite a step in the deparment of fighter weapon technologie, concidering how much more power a torpedo has.
That is if the differance is about the same as in WC3 where we have some values.
Still the differance between only torpedos, nearly the size of a bomber, beeing able to overpower a shield to have your lasers to the same is quite something in my opinion.

Personaly I think the movie and the game are not very compatible.
Its more like the movie is a re-invention of the universe rather then completing it.
I should remember not to even think about combining these two.

I don't think there are any special alloys, weird shieldings, etc. It's just a matter of matching the timing of the shields and then being able to pass through.

So a relative slow torpedo gets through but a laser or other fast firing weapon dosn't even get a lucky shot?

We know they get through, thats a pretty nice thing and that is all we need to know.

 

[Dundradal]

So a relative slow torpedo gets through but a laser or other fast firing weapon dosn't even get a lucky shot?

We know they get through, thats a pretty nice thing and that is all we need to know.

Torpedoes are not slow movers. I forget the exact speed but believe during the attack on the Skyhook detailed in AS the torps are moving at more than Mach 7 (or 17, it's been a while). By slow movers, I mean really slow objects, like shuttles that are docking or something along those lines.

Energy weapons are different. My explanation was from AS and specifically talks about physical objects.

 

[ChanceKell]

Confed did have a similar concept but not a weapon (remember from AS the Panama war games where a fleet of carriers deploying a hypothetical torpedo destroyed several battlewagons, however the results were later overturned by the referees).

Gah, AS is my White Whale of WC novels. So many cool things supposedly happen in it.. yet it's never crossed my path long enough for me to grab it.

The problem I see with that is fitting movie and game together. Both are about Blair setting foot on the Claw for the first time.
That makes it quite confusing for me to either seperate things or to put them together.

. . .

We know they get through, thats a pretty nice thing and that is all we need to know.

All very true. And don't forget the cartoon had Blair stepping on deck of the Claw for the first time, too; with Tolwyn as his CO, no less!

I think that the inclusion of torpedoes in the WC universe, aside from the fact that they're part of naval warfare, was for gameplay reasons. In WC1, we didn't see torpedoes not because they couldn't include them in the game, but they weren't necessary for the gameplay. There were already an assortment of missiles that had their own individual attributes, including damage, and if they added ship-killing torpedoes it would drastically alter gameplay in an early 1990 world of Wing Commander.

Fast forward a couple years, and they're developing WC2. Anyone knows a good sequel needs to include improvements in gameplay, and one of the things they developed is a new feature: the torpedo run! But instead of just giving people a super-powerful missile, they design these phase shields to explain a 30-second wait to make it slightly different (and, dare say, exciting?) than just shooting off a super-powerful missile.

Now, what I don't think they considered when coming up with phase shields is that, one day, someone will question why things look different in the movie vs. game vs. other game. I don't blame them for not foreseeing this thread. I wouldn't want to, either.

 

[Delance]

Energy weapons are different. My explanation was from AS and specifically talks about physical objects.

Cleary on WC3/WC4 energy guns don't have to "phase in" in order to penetrate the shields, since (a) they have to wear down the shields and (b) they require no lock. Torpedoes on those games still require a lock, but I'm not sure if they bypass or wear down the shields.

On WC2, Maces and PTCs can wear down the Phase Shields by brute force (no lock required for the mace, but I'm not sure about the PTC), but normal guns can't.

WCP/WCSO are interesting: some energy weapons can destroy the ship's major components and the ship itself (plasma weapons and the bug shipkiller gun), while all energy weapons can destroy the outer components (why is that?). Torpedoes still require a lock.

Those notes are from a gameplay perspective, so they might not exactly reflect the fiction.

 

[gevatter Lars]

Now, what I don't think they considered when coming up with phase shields is that, one day, someone will question why things look different in the movie vs. game vs. other game.

Now thats a funny idea, lets get it going...not ^_^
I think most problems of fans, bumping their heads about some details is that the creators never realy intendet any "continuity" like fans try to see it.
At least older games didn't tried it that much. Modern games sometimes do. Thinking of Halo who tried to tell one story and was allready developed with that in mind and the fanbase they have to serve(d).
Only played Halo1 on the PC and a buddys console but never got far. Was okay on the console but terrible on PC but from what I saw in reviews and gameplay footage it looked like they cared a bit about makeing one universe instead of just another title.

@Delance
Good point about the energie weapons in WCP. Never gave much into it why the Plasma and other could penetrate the shield without a look-on.

 

[Catnip]

I think the original Halo had a good backstory (its prequel novelization The Fall of Reach reminded me of Action Station, actually). The later games didn't have as good a narrative.

Halo 1 PC has never given me trouble, BTW.

Back on topic, I notice the WC2 manual lists the Kamekh as having phase shields despite it being vulnerable to conventional weapons, so there seems to be some overlap of the WC1-style and WC2-style ("advanced") phase shields in the same period.

 

[gevatter Lars]

The problem with the PC version was its extremly repatetive level design.
As I have played both, they just toke the console level and doubled or even trippled every part of the map. Espacialy inside of buildings you lost your track as you got throught the same parts of the level again and again while on the console it was just one room of its kind.

As for the Kamekh.
Never noticed that, I mean the manual entry. Question is that intendet or was it a design decision at a late point of development so they don't need a bomber in every mission where a Kamekh is present.

 

[gr1mre4per]

Q1 > The film appears, to me anyway, to have adopted a more WC3/4 style shield. Ref: report of "port shield suffering 40% failure" after 2 torpedo hits. I would like to purely guess, in response to the original post, that the shields of the Kilrathi destroyer are simply a lot weaker then that of the Confed carrier, meaning less torpedoes taken to penetrate the shields. In the games, Kilrathi shield tech was generally not as advanced as Confed. Also destroyers from both sides were generally taken out with one to two torpedoes. Then again, you could argue that a carrier in the game could not withstand 7 torpedoes before shield failure, as the Claw did in the film.

Q2 > Wouldnt dare to guess.

Q3 > The Snakier in the film had just loaded torpedoes into its tubes just before Paladin fires his fighters torpedoes. I would hazard a guess that the Snakier had just lowered its shields in preperation to fire its torpedoes allowing the fighters torpedoes to impact the hull unimpeded. As you say, Paladin advises they will lower their shield just before launching torpedoes. But again, he initially says wait for them to launch a torpedo. As the Claw's shields were already down at the end and another torpedo would have finished her, Paladin's ?pilgrimness? could have guided him to knowing when the Snakiers shields dropped for the torpedo! Haha, real stab in the dark guess, but kinda makes sense

 

[frostytheplebe]

Q1 > The film appears, to me anyway, to have adopted a more WC3/4 style shield. Ref: report of "port shield suffering 40% failure" after 2 torpedo hits.

That doesn't necessarily mean that anything. Port shields suffering 40% failure could simply mean that the emitters had suffered damage and were only functioning at 40% strength, not that the shields were dropping...

Also weren't those Meson shields, not phase shields?

Q3 > The Snakier in the film had just loaded torpedoes into its tubes just before Paladin fires his fighters torpedoes. I would hazard a guess that the Snakier had just lowered its shields in preperation to fire its torpedoes allowing the fighters torpedoes to impact the hull unimpeded. As you say, Paladin advises they will lower their shield just before launching torpedoes. But again, he initially says wait for them to launch a torpedo. As the Claw's shields were already down at the end and another torpedo would have finished her, Paladin's ?pilgrimness? could have guided him to knowing when the Snakiers shields dropped for the torpedo! Haha, real stab in the dark guess, but kinda makes sense

That wasn't a Snakier, it was actually somewhat smaller.

 

[Dundradal]

@Delance
Good point about the energie weapons in WCP. Never gave much into it why the Plasma and other could penetrate the shield without a look-on.

I think we are watching the weapons cycle go around again. During AS they repeatedly talk about how the only way to take down shields is to literally beat them down with energies weapons (in AS it's heavy plasma weapons). I think WCP/SO is somewhere along those lines.

 

[gr1mre4per]

Also weren't those Meson shields, not phase shields?

I do not know the spec of Meson shields, perhapse you could shead some light on this for me on how they work.

That wasn't a Snakier, it was actually somewhat smaller.

Looks a lot like the Snakier that followed Blair through the jump to earth to me. Are you thinking about the cruiser in the second battle that fires energy weapons at the Claw?

 

[frostytheplebe]

I do not know the spec of Meson shields, perhapse you could shead some light on this for me on how they work.




Looks a lot like the Snakier that followed Blair through the jump to earth to me. Are you thinking about the cruiser in the second battle that fires energy weapons at the Claw?

Afraid I know very little about them myself.... there is a snakier thread that was created earlier where I asked this very question. I need to find it.

 

[Dundradal]

If I have time I'll dig out my Confed handbook and find the section that discusses Meson shields.