Real Life Mandarins

Mad Hatter

Spaceman
Well, that's the way my mind works. If there's one thing I hate it's inconsistency, so you'd better watch it... ;)

Anyway, while I don't agree with most of your views, the only real issue I have with you is regarding your lack of care toward civilian casaulties, and that you, and I quote, "don't give a shit if Hussain drops a scud or two on Israel" just because you don't like our zero-tolerance policy towards terrorists.

Also, I suggest that you also read Action Stations, if you haven't already. May change your views a little regarding preemptive strikes. This is just to make this a little more WC related.
 

Ender

Spaceman
Haven't read AS-me broke college student. Food, Film, Fuel and Females. That's about all I have money for. As for Rise and Fall of the Third Riech, I have not read it, but will be, after I read everything else on my list. But I have actually visited Terezin-stadt, and Yad Vashem, and the museum in DC. I am quite familiar with the point you are trying to make.

Since you brought up the subject of readings dealing with dictators, may I suggest "Quotations From Chairman Mao," and "The Commisar Vanishes, the Falsification of Photographs and Art in Stalin's Russia" (David King). It's also nice to keep in perspective that both of them killed a hell of a lot more people than Hitler. "Commisar" is a really great volume on propoganda in general. Another good read is "The Ugly American," by William Lederer and Eugene Burdick-it's not an anti-American book. It is about US policy in Asia and was written in 1958. It's quite remarkable.

I honestly don't care is some Scuds get launched at Israel. I have family over there, and having been there I know it's a high risk bit of real estate. But we can not have a double standard. If one of the reasons we are contemplating war with Iraq is theri flouting of UN resolutions, then we must, at the very least publicly chastized Israel for it's behavior. I do not make the distinction that Israeli life is worth more than Iraqi life. Or an American being worth more than an Afghani. I know that this will no doubt put me at odds with myself some day, but that is for the future, people change.

I used to be a die hard, no compromise Zionist, and well, we all know how that ended up. Perhaps I am naive, but allow me to let you in on something-I'm 21 years old. I'm in college, and I don't give a shit if I am or not. Because I am young, and that's how most young people are. I'm cynical, I'm pessimistic, but at the same time I believe another world is possible, and I am going to do my part to try and make it happen. Another thing. There are at most a couple hundred people who make regular contributions to this board (admins feel free to correct me), even if all of them feel the same way you do it doesn't matter. On another board I post on (which is much bigger) the opinion ratio is reversed, and more importanlty-I walked with 300,000 people who disagree with your take on this. I have already explained how many people that really is.

This started out as me defending myself against what I percieved to be an attack on my character. You have read a lot from me, you've seen me make a complete ass out of myself, and you've seen me post facts and research. If you are set in your ideals, fine-but please, make sure they are your own. Do not set someting aside just because it does not fit with what you are told to believe. Make your own decision. I have challenged your beliefs, you have defended them with the same rightous indignation that I mustered against you. Where are we for all of that? You have your opinion, I have mine, but mine is most certainly my own. I once saw things from your perspective, then I looked arouns and saw things diferently. Maybe I'll come back to your way of thinking, maybe if you haven't tuned out everything I've said, you'll join me. Maybe not. But it's your choice. Make sure you have actually chosen the ideals you carry, so often we carry those of others without realizing that they are not ours, and maybe even harmful to us.
 

Templar

Spaceman
...I believe another world is possible, and I am going to do my part to try and make it happen.
I think you can...
I honestly don't care is some Scuds get launched at Israel.
...just make sure it isn't an age of apathy.
This started out as me defending myself against what I percieved to be an attack on my character.
I don't speak for everyone here, but I don't think you are a bad guy.
I have challenged your beliefs, you have defended them with the same rightous indignation that I mustered against you. Where are we for all of that?
I hope we are at a point where we listened and heard what each one of us had to say (I know I paid you that consideration).
If you are set in your ideals, fine-but please, make sure they are your own .
On another board I post on (which is much bigger) the opinion ratio is reversed, and more importanlty-I walked with 300,000 people who disagree with your take on this.
Make sure they are your own too.
 

Phillip Tanaka

Swabbie
Banned
"If you are set in your ideals, fine-but please, make sure they are your own."

My OWN belief is to stop the murder of thousands, maybe even millions, of innocent men, women and children, by terrorists who would destroy the world just because there are people of a diffirent race to them or just because they do not choose to follow the way of Allah and the Jihad.

A grim reminder on why the war on terrorism is so important.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/11/08/interpol/index.html
 

Ender

Spaceman
<mutters explitive> the post I had typed up got blown away.

Apathy is an interesting thing. I voted last Tuesday, making me one of the 35% of enfranchised Americans to take part in this institution. That number is way too low. (I don't see how any politician can claim a "mandate from the people" without at least 60% voter turnout.)
But anyway, I figure Israel can do a pretty good job of defending themselves. They have a fully functional, highly trained, state of the art airforce an air defense network. Somehow I'm less concerned about them getting hit by one of the most innacurate weapons around (Iraqi Scuds that have been modified for longer range tend to break up upon atmospheric re-entry, hence why Patriot missiles had a hard time hitting the warheads.) than I am Turky bombing Kurds with US hardware. (hmmmm...smell the forign policy hypocracy)
http://www.projectcensored.org/stories/2000/05.html

But then again, apathy is easy.
http://www.projectcensored.org/stories/2000/07.html

Yes, my ideals are my own. I some from my family, some from my schooling, some from books, some from the country I love-mix them all together, throw in some first hand experience and you've got me now.

"Jewish-Crusader allience?" sounds like the "Axis of Evil." 'Sides, all the Muslims I've talked to lately are interested in an anti-Crusader allience. MUWAHAHAHAHA (Do not take the last paragraph seriously. I needed a maniacal laugh.)
 

Phillip Tanaka

Swabbie
Banned
Originally posted by Ender
Yes, my ideals are my own. I some from my family, some from my schooling, some from books, some from the country I love-mix them all together, throw in some first hand experience and you've got me now.
I agree. Some of my ideals are formed by others as well. I believe in things others preach, such as that we have to stop the use of NBC weapons. (Nuclear, Biological and Chemical). I share beliefs with other people, like Spirit, who believes that there are wars that have to be fought. (Fictional character I know, but I agree that there are issues that have to be fought, or, for that matter, decisively ended). And they form me, my personnality. I also make up a lot of my personality based on what I experiance myself. For instance, I do not believe that people have a right to harm others for no reason. (Assisting in the September 11 attacks, by the way, would be reason enough to take down Saddam Hussain in my view, if it is true). I do not believe that you should stop free speech, because I witness anti war protests and they do come up with some good points.
 

Ender

Spaceman
Muh bad- it was 39% of eligable voters that came out last Tues. Not 35. It's still freakin' pathetic.
 

Mad Hatter

Spaceman
Originally posted by Ender
But anyway, I figure Israel can do a pretty good job of defending themselves. They have a fully functional, highly trained, state of the art airforce an air defense network. Somehow I'm less concerned about them getting hit by one of the most innacurate weapons around (Iraqi Scuds that have been modified for longer range tend to break up upon atmospheric re-entry, hence why Patriot missiles had a hard time hitting the warheads.)...
That's more like it.
Personally, being an Israeli citizen and all, I'm not overly worried about Iraqi SCUDs either, but between not being worried and "not giving a shit" there's quite a difference.
 

Phillip Tanaka

Swabbie
Banned
Originally posted by Ender
Italy just trumped US demonstrators by 200,000.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20021109/wl_nm/italy_globalisation_dc_4
"Some placards depicted President Bush (news - web sites) as Hitler and Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi as Mussolini."

Not Hitler. Maybe a kid playing war with real people and real soldiers. The most impressive thing about this protest in my view was that there was no violence. Two weeks ago there was a flag burning that erupted into violence, and I am sure glad that these people say they genuinely want peace by not using violence to push for it.
 

Ender

Spaceman
When/where were they burning the flag? I didn't see or hear about that at DC. But there were a load of people there.

On the other hand, if there was violence, word would have travelled pretty fast.

Hatter, out of curiosity, how is this playing in the news over there?
 

Phillip Tanaka

Swabbie
Banned
Originally posted by Ender
When/where were they burning the flag? I didn't see or hear about that at DC. But there were a load of people there.

On the other hand, if there was violence, word would have travelled pretty fast.

Hatter, out of curiosity, how is this playing in the news over there?
Oh, sorry about that. It was at a University in Melbourne, Australia. There was a protest there about two weeks ago, where they burnt the Australian flag and decreed America and Australia worse things than at that Italy protest. That's the long and short end of it. I first heard of it last, umm...Tuesday I think. No Wednsday, on a show called Today Tonight. You should be able to read about it at www.todaytonight.i7.com.au, but for some reason there's no news of it there. But the protest was real enough. Here, the Australian Herald Sun web site has something on it, and I'm sure if you look there'll be more.
http://heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,5443288%5E662,00.html

Hypocritical to say you want peace, then turn violent, don't you think?
 

Ender

Spaceman
Oh, I thought it was in the US. Here flag burning is legal but considered extremely distateful. (Surpreme Court case : Texas v. Johnson) It doesn't happen much because most protestors realize that it just pisses off people who might have listened to you.
One of my big pet-peeves with a lot of activists is they spend too much time pissing people off instead of using facts and persuasion to turn opposition members into friends. (That's why it was 300,000 instead of a couple million.)
 

Mad Hatter

Spaceman
Originally posted by Ender
Hatter, out of curiosity, how is this playing in the news over there?
How does what play in the news here?
I suppose that probably answers your question... ;)

We're too busy with our upcoming elections (the 5th in ten years, sheesh!) to really be interested with US, or for that matter, any other country's internal affairs.
 

Phillip Tanaka

Swabbie
Banned
Originally posted by Ender
Oh, I thought it was in the US. Here flag burning is legal but considered extremely distateful. (Surpreme Court case : Texas v. Johnson) It doesn't happen much because most protestors realize that it just pisses off people who might have listened to you.
Yeah, it does turn people off in droves. You would have seen that they're pushing to make flag burning illegal. I always believed that it was, and firmly believe that it should. After all, (insert name of country here). love it or leave it.

Originally posted by Mad Hatter
We're too busy with our upcoming elections (the 5th in ten years, sheesh!) to really be interested with US, or for that matter, any other country's internal affairs.
This will be interesting if Gorge Dubbleya is involved (know zip about it), because it would decide once and for all if America wants him as a leader.
 

TC

SubCrid
Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka
Yeah, it does turn people off in droves. You would have seen that they're pushing to make flag burning illegal. I always believed that it was, and firmly believe that it should. After all, (insert name of country here). love it or leave it.
Wow... what the hell? Why should burning a piece of cloth be illegal?
 

Phillip Tanaka

Swabbie
Banned
Originally posted by TC
Wow... what the hell? Why should burning a piece of cloth be illegal?
To me, and this is just my opinion, but a country's flag is a lot more than a piece of cloth. It's a symbol of everything that country, whatever country it may be, stands for. It is evidence of the triumph, tragedy and sacrifice that had gone into making a country what it is. And to many, the burning of a flag is the equivilent of saying that all that sacrifice, all that effort, the country can take it and go to hell, and is an insult to all those who love their country. "The flag is not so much a symbol of the government, it's an emblem of the people," says Major General McLachlan. And sure, people have a right to protest the government of the day, and I'm not sure if it's the presidential election that's coming up, but if you don't like the government of the day, then vote the c*** out of office. But burning a flag, I feel, is too far, whether it's seen as just a piece of cloth or not.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
This will be interesting if Gorge Dubbleya is involved (know zip about it), because it would decide once and for all if America wants him as a leader.
Yup... because George Bush is running for president of Israel and all...
 

Mad Hatter

Spaceman
Practically speaking, he might as well be...
Did you know that they actually had a poll about 2 years ago asking people who'd they prefer to see as prime minister of Israel: Ehud Barak, Ariel Sharon, or Bill Clinton?
Take a wild guess who won in the poll...
 

Ender

Spaceman
On the flag issue- I do have a tiny American flag on my door-inverted. This is applicable because I believe we are in a state of extreme national distress. (Under the Flag Code, it is only permissable to invert the US flag in case of extreme danger to life and property.)

The flag is a symbol, but it is in the end, just a peice of cloth. What really makes America is our constitution. While the flag may represent this, it is not the same thing. The oath of office, and the oath taken by American military personel is to the constitution, and that's where my loyalty's at.

To me it's just a peice of cloth, but having some importance behind it, I find it wrong to smear all over retail goods, especially expendables. (Flag napkins-c'mon now even I know that's tasteless)

I guess I'm kind of ambivalet on the issue. I support the right of a person to symbolicly destroy the emblem of their country in protest, but I would not be the one to hand him the matches. (Afterall, just becaue you can't do it in Iraq or China or N. Korea, and we're democratic, and they're not, we should allow it. Just to tell the dictators of the world where to stick it.)

Linky:
Flag Code: http://www.usflag.org/us.code36.html
(Part of that was struck down in Texas v. Johnson as running counter to the 1st ammendment.)
 
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