Prototype/Super Fighter Or Super Flop?

frostytheplebe

Seventh Part of the Seal
I've been going over the supposed super fighter from each game and trying to decide whether each was in fact a tough, successful, fighter or something that would cause someone at Confed R&D to be fired.

Though Wing Commander I had no super fighter, the 2nd generation rapier is about as close as they get therefore, will be included in this discussion:

Rapier II (As seen on the TCS Tiger's Claw): Supposedly this ship had superior shields. I really can't say I agree. The ships shields would fall as fast as any other ship in the game and the armor could not compensate for that. The saving grace is that the ship was fast enough to avoid getting hit. Her gun layout and ordinance are superior. Pretty hard to miss with these guns. Laser and neutron weapons make this ship a success in my book preferred over it's WC2 counterpart. SUCCESS

Crossbow: I don't count this as a super ship as it is anything but. The gun layout obstructs the cockpit view for a second or two, no afterburner and only one turret makes this one a second rate bomber good, perhaps for use on smaller carriers incapable of housing a Broadsword, or as a second string ship. Would it qualify as a replacement for the Broadsword? Definitely now. FAILURE

Morningstar: Designed with some of maniac's personal specification? Good lord! That spelled disaster to me... that said, the fighter is well armored, but the weapon's layout is somewhat disappointing. The ship's speed is slightly slower then it should be, and the 3 particle cannons are not what I would hope for. I had hoped that one of the fighters would be a Neutron/particle mix in WC2. The Mace was a total disaster especially if used inappropriately or if a capship were lucky enough to blast it. UNDECIDED.

Wraith: Fast... very fast, arguably too fast. Losing momentary control could be lost at full speed if attempting to make a turn. Reaper and Neutron load out was impressive. This proved a very powerful ship indeed. SUCCESS

Excalibur: I loved it when it had its reaper guns... not so much with the ion guns. It was a good ship, fast and agile. The auto tracking guns made things very easy... however by Wing Commander Prophecy, the ship was too easily killed. SUCCESS

Dragon: Way too overpowered. Infinite afterburners, 4 tach, plasma guns, fission cannons, cloaking device, etc. Its a wonder it isn't seen in WCP. SUCCESS
 

Jason_Ryock

Vice Admiral
You're missing the worst offender on the list - the Devestator with it's torpedos are now unnecessary super weapon. And the Vampire, too.
 

Dyret

Super Carrot!
It's great that you approach an old subject in a new way, but the thread is a bit confusing... Do you mean actual in-universe sucess/failure or is it just a 'like ship/don't like ship' thread.

In universe I doubt any of these fighters would "get anyone fired". With the possible exception Dragon and Wraith they were all just next generation standard frontline fighters, and seemed to be more capable at whatever they were doing than their predecessors.

In game, I generally agree with your list, but I don't remember feeling that the Crossbow was such a letdown, though its been long since I've flown it outside Standoff, so I might just have over-exited about having five guns. I do remember missing the side turrets, but it was definitely one of my favorites back in the day.
 

frostytheplebe

Seventh Part of the Seal
It's great that you approach an old subject in a new way, but the thread is a bit confusing... Do you mean actual in-universe sucess/failure or is it just a 'like ship/don't like ship' thread.

Well it was definitely opinion based, but I tried to base it as much as I could off of how the ship actually played out "in-game."

Also, according to the CIC ship database, the Broadsword has a long, distinguished record of service with Confed. It appears almost no other ship has had such a long career. It appears the last we see of the crossbow is during the BoT.
 

Milatry

Petty Officer
I think the Crossbow was just for smaller cap ships that couldn’t fit the Broadsword cause the Broadsword has the same armor and shield strength the only deferent’s is the load out the Broadsword carried more torps then the Crossbow.
As for the Morningstar I didn’t like the mace missile I never got it to work right but I had little to no trouble with it I think it was a great ship for it’s time.
The Wraith should have seen more frontline combat it was a superb fighter but the thing was it cost too much to make it for it to be produced for frontline combat.
The Excalibur is still a great fighter in the right hands even in prophecy she can hold her own.
The Dragon is just over kill but I loved the infinite afterburners for me were perfect cause I use my guns more then my missiles and not having to look all the time at how much afterburner fuel I have is great for me.
The Devestator should have been filled with missile cause with its plasma gun it didn’t need torps I never used them when I played prophecy /secret ops
And I see nothing wrong with the Vampire it’s a great fighter.
 

Death

gh0d (Administrator)
Please don't bring fanon into these kinds of discussions.

Nothing official has mentioned anything about the Morningstar's price tag. That it wasn't seen post-SO2 simply means that it wasn't seen post-SO2, not that it no longer was in use. It's a big freaking galaxy, there's nothing saying that all designs have to show up in all games, none of which cover more than a tiny fraction of known space.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Though Wing Commander I had no super fighter, the 2nd generation rapier is about as close as they get therefore, will be included in this discussion:

This is kind of confusing, since there's an actual 'Superfighter' classification -- which doesn't apply to any of the ships you listed (they are, in order, medium, bomber, heavy, medium, heavy and heavy). To the best of my recollection, Wing Commander's only actual "superfighter" is the Bloodfang.

Rapier II (As seen on the TCS Tiger's Claw): Supposedly this ship had superior shields. I really can't say I agree.

It had 8.5 cm shields, versus 3 cm on the Hornet, 4 cm on the Scimitar and 7 cm on the Raptor. I'm not sure there's much room to disagree on this.

Crossbow: I don't count this as a super ship as it is anything but. The gun layout obstructs the cockpit view for a second or two, no afterburner and only one turret makes this one a second rate bomber good, perhaps for use on smaller carriers incapable of housing a Broadsword, or as a second string ship. Would it qualify as a replacement for the Broadsword? Definitely now. FAILURE

You have to remember that in 1991 it was really, really impressive to have a ship with five forward guns at once -- we hadn't seen that before.

Morningstar: Designed with some of maniac's personal specification? Good lord! That spelled disaster to me...

None of the other things Maniac said were true, though -- it was all his crazed boasting... so I'm not sure why people insist on believing this fairly unbelievable claim. :)

Wraith: Fast... very fast, arguably too fast. Losing momentary control could be lost at full speed if attempting to make a turn.

I... don't think... this can happen... in Wing commander.

Also, according to the CIC ship database, the Broadsword has a long, distinguished record of service with Confed. It appears almost no other ship has had such a long career. It appears the last we see of the crossbow is during the BoT.

There's no mention of Crossbows at the Battle of Terra--but of course they were still around, we see the *very first* production deliveries just two years earlier in Special Operations 1.

It's likely there were other ships with long service histories... but this isn't necessarily indicative of quality. You know what was in service for more years than the Broadsword? The Scimitar.

The Wraith should have seen more frontline combat it was a superb fighter but the thing was it cost too much to make it for it to be produced for frontline combat.

There's no backstory that claims this (and, of course, there's a whole game where you actually get to build factories that produce Wraiths...). More likely it's just that they're *brand new* in 2669 -- the Armada fiction says the first squadrons are just coming online then. (And even with that in mind, we're told that Reaper cannons scored more space-to-space kills than any other type of energy weapon... which suggests that Wraiths were hard at work in their few months of service before the surrender.)
 

Mekt-Hakkikt

Mpanty's bane
(...) I had hoped that one of the fighters would be a Neutron/particle mix in WC2.(...)

While the Neutron Gun holds a special place in my heart I wonder why you'd hope for a Particle/Neutron mix if the Particle Cannon is superior to the Neutron Gun in every way.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
While the Neutron Gun holds a special place in my heart I wonder why you'd hope for a Particle/Neutron mix if the Particle Cannon is superior to the Neutron Gun in every way.

Fantastic point and good memory -- in 1991, all we were told was that the Particle Cannon did the damage of a neutron gun with the range of a laser cannon.
 

Ptarmigan

Spaceman
I like the Dragon a lot because it is overkill. Who could beat the fission cannon and plasma and tachyon weapons. :cool: Too bad it never was used in Prophecy. :(
 

Sylvester

Vice Admiral
I resent the Scimitar bashing. I, for one, always loved that fighter. The twin mass drivers were effective, it had a good missile loadout and it could get shot to hell (to compensate for its admittedly slow top speed). Plus, where else would you get the unique tan interior and see the only fighter in WC that has its radar mounted to the cockpit overhead instead of the instrument panel.
 

Vinman

Vice Admiral
I resent the Scimitar bashing. I, for one, always loved that fighter. The twin mass drivers were effective, it had a good missile loadout and it could get shot to hell (to compensate for its admittedly slow top speed). Plus, where else would you get the unique tan interior and see the only fighter in WC that has its radar mounted to the cockpit overhead instead of the instrument panel.

Right on! My guess is that if Iceman hadn't hated the scim, it wouldn't have gotten such a terrible reputation.
 

Lorien

Rear Admiral
You have to remember that in 1991 it was really, really impressive to have a ship with five forward guns at once -- we hadn't seen that before.

It also gets those guns on target a lot quicker than the Broadsword could. According to the ships database, it turns as well as a Ferret (8/8/8)!
 

frostytheplebe

Seventh Part of the Seal
Right on! My guess is that if Iceman hadn't hated the scim, it wouldn't have gotten such a terrible reputation.

Well that is pretty much where the rep came from. I must also agree that the fighter was awesome. Part of me is somewhat surprised it wasn't fitted with torpedoes and used as a second line bomber. I mean by WC3 Confed must have been running low on fighters.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
I resent the Scimitar bashing. I, for one, always loved that fighter.

This is the problem with everything on the internet - it isn't *bashing* the Scimitar to point out that it isn't the singular best fighter in Wing Commander (which was the context here; the Broadsword must be the best because it's been in service for the longest.) Every kid doesn't get an A+, it isn't the same thing as giving them all Fs.

It also gets those guns on target a lot quicker than the Broadsword could. According to the ships database, it turns as well as a Ferret (8/8/8)!

The Crossbow certainly felt more maneuverable than the Broadsword. I don't know what's reflected in the actual game off hand, but 8/8/8 is what the Wing Commander Academy manual (with the usual provision that the Y/P/R numbers in the early games make no sense to begin with.)
 

Lorien

Rear Admiral
The Crossbow certainly felt more maneuverable than the Broadsword. I don't know what's reflected in the actual game off hand, but 8/8/8 is what the Wing Commander Academy manual (with the usual provision that the Y/P/R numbers in the early games make no sense to begin with.)

It's what I always remembered about the Crossbow. I was surprised to read that it matched the Ferret in the database but I don't think it's that far from the actual numbers.
 

gavinfoxx

Rear Admiral
Well standoff took the actual numbers in the game files themselves and managed to convert them to something useful... in their database, they have ypr as 80/80/80.

Also I have a very very different opinion on the fighters, in the post I put (that as of this post is at the top of the forum)!
 
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