Pre-WC1

Melbourne

Spaceman
What I'm talking about is around the events of Action Stations. I seem to be a little lost as to how everything develops up to that point and just afterwards. The reason I've got this in my mind is because a few of my mates and myself are working on a Wing Commander MUSH set in that time. You know... pre-Blair and Maniac killing half of everything in the known universe?

I'm wondering if you blokes could help me smooth out some of the rough edges. What purpose did the fighters serve priour to McAuliffe? It seems Forstchen tried to make the point that fighters were used little/none by the Admirals in favour of the Battlewagons.

Another thing(was hoping it'd get slid into the encylcopedia) is I'm wondering if anyone has a more complete idea of all the ships used around that time and in what numbers? You've got the Ark Royal and the Concordia being the main carriers with a number of smaller escort vessels. I'm assuming that was the small minority of the fleet as most of it was destroyed in the attack. So, how many other ships do you think the Confederation had up there? Dozens of Battlewagons(which I assume are battleships), frigates, cruisers, and destroyers would all have been in the main battle fleet....

Also, ship classes? The two mentions that I can think of are the Minotaur and the Wildcat for the Confederation but I can't seem to remember if the Kilrathi had anything along those lines. I've read through it about four times but I'm still not sure if I'm not seeing it or it isn't there.

Any help you can give is greatly appreciated. Hmm... I guess a better first question would have been is anyone interested in a WC MUSH or is everyone hungry for something more graphic and substantial? I like writing/roleplaying so I was just wondering if there were any others out here that did(I know there were quite a few active ones back in the day... not sure if they are as active anymore).
 
If you read through Action Stations again, they'll list some of the Kilrathi ships, as well as a few other Confed fighters. You just about have to read through the entire novel again, and have a pen and pad with you.

For the other stuff, ask Loaf. He knows all of it.
 
Prior to the Kilrathi invention of torpedoes capable of penetrating capship phase shields, fighters were nearly useless in taking out anything larger than a corvette. They were used mostly for patrols/recon and for ground strikes, and also for Wild Weasel missions (like what you do in WCP to skin turrets off of capships). Basically fighters did everything EXCEPT blowing up capships.

As for fighters, the Wildcat was the obsolete fighter that was only still used because nothing better was available due to budget cuts. The description in the book implies that it is a medium fighter with lasers and mass drivers and average speed and turning ability. The Minatour was a bomber so obsolete that it hadn't even been manufactured in over a hundred years, but some of them seemed to still be in use. The Hurricane was the atmospheric fighter that apparently carried only one gun (no info on what type of gun--perhaps an old style Stormfire?). The Scimitar was also in use, and considered obsolete even back then, and the new heavy fighter was the Corsair (about which we get no information).

As for stats for Action Stations era ships, I would go with numbers similar to what is seen in WC1, but with the inclusion of WC2-style capship shields and torpedoes.
 
I love Prophecy cap ships. I love skinning turrets. It's so much easier than in previous WC games. I'm going through the game again on Nightmare, and it's still such a breeze . . . except those damn Morays peppering me with missiles. So, when I finish dealing with the damn Manta that I've been chasing across the melee, I turn and stuff an IR right up that Moray's punk ass. What's that? Oh, how ya like them missiles NOW, fucker? Not so fun when it's YOUR ass getting shrapnel in it, now is it? How about a big dose of windshield, insect? Huh? SPLAT!
 
I'm wondering if you blokes could help me smooth out some of the rough edges. What purpose did the fighters serve priour to McAuliffe? It seems Forstchen tried to make the point that fighters were used little/none by the Admirals in favour of the Battlewagons.

Before McAuliffe, fighters served at least three important purposes:

- 1. Reconnaissance: Fast and maneuverable fighters could be sent ahead to fan out to locate an enemy fleet. A smaller carrier would accompany a group of battleships for this reason (hence the existence of the smaller Ranger-class ships in the first place).

- 2. Precision Bombardment: Bombers (Trident, Gladiator, etc.) may not have been useful to attack capital ships -- but they could be used for attacking planetary targets. If you want a continent wiped out, then you can use your BB's plasma weapons... but if you want a specific installation blown up, you'll probably use a fighter.

- 3. Interdiction: The enemy will be using fighters for recon and bombing runs, too... and the best way to shoot down enemy fighters is with your own fighters. They're also useful for lighter anti-shipping missions -- look at the Vak-class Kilrathi fighters in Action Stations.

Another thing(was hoping it'd get slid into the encylcopedia) is I'm wondering if anyone has a more complete idea of all the ships used around that time and in what numbers? You've got the Ark Royal and the Concordia being the main carriers with a number of smaller escort vessels. I'm assuming that was the small minority of the fleet as most of it was destroyed in the attack. So, how many other ships do you think the Confederation had up there? Dozens of Battlewagons(which I assume are battleships), frigates, cruisers, and destroyers would all have been in the main battle fleet....

Carrier numbers has always been the sticking point -- since the switch to a carrier-based fleet came *after* the start of the war (and given the difficult and lengthy requirements for producing a carrier), neither fleet was able to field many at a time. Neither faction seems to have more than 16-25 fleet carriers in service at any one point... and sometimes fewer than eight.

There's still older carriers in service at the start of the war (Coral Sea-type, Ranger-class, etc.)... and Confed can put eight new Concordia-class ships into service each five year period. They'd been building a new Bengal each year since 2619, which means that they *could* have as many as 15 when the war started (although some were undoubtably lost during the Pilgrim conflict).

Destroyers and cruisers are much easier to build and are much common. There are references to the Kilrathi having as many as 2,000 Fralthi and 3,000 Ralari at the outset of the war. Confed probably has similar numbers.

Battlewagons seem to number in the 40s to 50s per class, on both sides.

Also, ship classes? The two mentions that I can think of are the Minotaur and the Wildcat for the Confederation but I can't seem to remember if the Kilrathi had anything along those lines. I've read through it about four times but I'm still not sure if I'm not seeing it or it isn't there.

Fighter-wise, these are what we *know* was in service in 2634:

Empire of Kilrah:
Asjaka class Bomber
KF-100 Dralthi class Medium Fighter
Gamora class Bomber
Kala class Fighter
Krant class Interceptor
Vak class Fighter

Terran Confederation:
Broadsword class bomber
Falcon class fighter-bomber
Gladiator class bomber
Hornet class light fighter
Hummer class light recon fighter
Hurricane class fighter
Merlin class fighter
Minotaur class fighter
Rapier class medium fighter
Scimitar class medium fighter
Trident class heavy bomber
Wildcat class fighter

Amd then capships...

The Empire of Kilrah:
Butha class Cruiser
Fralthi class Cruiser
Gamorgin class Battleships
Ralari class Destroyer
Sivar class Dreadnought
Snakeir class SuperDreadnought
Targu class Frigate
Tugar class Light Transport
Unclassified Heavy Cruiser
Yar class Battleship
Zulu class Battleship

Terran Confederation:
Bengal-class Strike Carrier
Caernaven-class Frigate
Concordia-class Fleet Carrier
Coral Sea-type Heavy Carrier
Malta-type Battleship
Ranger-class Light Carrier
Sheffield-type Destroyer
Tallahassee-class Cruiser
 
Poulton said:
What is a wing commander MUSH?

Pretty much the same thing as a MUD, or a Multi User Dungeon. They are large text adventure online games. Very similar to MMORPG games like Everquest and Ultima Online without the graphics.

They are great fun however I have not heard of a Wing Commander one.
 
The Bengal-class strike carrier wasn't designed until 2642, and the first one was built in 2644. Rapiers weren't put into fleet circulation until 2654.

That's what I know. As for the other ships, it seems odd that so many WC1 and 2-era ships were used so early in the war. Everyone knows the Scimitar was used back then, but then everyone in WC1 commented on how it was new when the war began, but so outdated in 2654.
 
I think he means the Rapier I, not the Rapier II from WC1/2. As for capships, wasn't WC1 supposed to be the first time that Confed had seen a Fralthi? I seem to recall Col. Halcyon making such a reference.
 
The Bengal-class strike carrier wasn't designed until 2642, and the first one was built in 2644. Rapiers weren't put into fleet circulation until 2654.

According to the Confed Handbook, the first Bengals entered service in 2619 -- although based on the specs given there, they were smaller/lighter than the variant that included the Tiger's Claw.

This makes sense, IMO, as it explains why Claw Marks claims the Tiger's Claw and not the Bengal is the first Bengal.
 
Thanks for the debate, it really helps me to clear out some of the muddled things. There are still some parts I'm confused about but I'm working on that. Here is what I think we'll be using so far. Some of these I already had down but wasn't sure until you blokes confirmed it. There are some liberties taken just to make the entire environment more interesting.

Terran Confederation Fighters

Wildcat Light/Training
Minotaur Light Torp/B
Prototype-stage Corsairs Heavy
Scimitar Medium
Prototype-stage Rapier Medium
Falcon F/B
Merlin Light
Broadsword is in development(will replace early classes)
Trident Heavy Bomber

The problem I come to here is the abundance of bombers for their utter uselessness so far. To me, the Broadsword has always been used for torpedo runs and any effect it would have on a CAS would be negligble considering the lack of a bombay or very many hard points. On the other hand, a torpedo hp could probably carry quite a few of another type. Gladiator,Hummer, and Hurricane are going to be nixed from the list because their use is marginal. I believe the Hornet can be used in place of a recon fighter and the Hurricane is just useless in HSpace.

Kilrathi:
... just about everything Bandit put up.
Dralthi will be an advanced fighter.
Krant is medium fighter
Asjaka/Gamora are the bombers
Vak and Kala are light fighters
Jalthi Heavy
Grikath Heavy
Gratha Heavy

Confed Caps:
Bengal CVE(smaller version, will increase in size later on)
Concordia Fleet Carrier
Coral Sea Heavy Class(configures either into a transport of a carrier)
Ranger Light Class(configures into a T or carrier)
Sheffield Destroyer
Tallahasse Cruiser
Malta Battlewagon
Caernaven Transport

Kilrathi Caps:
Yar Battleship(Zulu is what the Confederation calls it)
Fralthra Cruiser
Fralthi Cruiser
Lumbari Transport
Ralatha Destroyer
Ralari Destroyer
Kamekh Corvette


Is there anything there I'm missing or should add in instead?
 
Prototype-stage Corsairs Heavy

My notes say we won't see the Corsair until 2639.

Prototype-stage Rapier Medium

The original Rapier has been in service for more than a hundred years as of the outset of the war... it's hardly a prototype. :) (and the Rapier II won't enter service for another two decades).

The problem I come to here is the abundance of bombers for their utter uselessness so far. To me, the Broadsword has always been used for torpedo runs and any effect it would have on a CAS would be negligble considering the lack of a bombay or very many hard points. On the other hand, a torpedo hp could probably carry quite a few of another type. Gladiator,Hummer, and Hurricane are going to be nixed from the list because their use is marginal. I believe the Hornet can be used in place of a recon fighter and the Hurricane is just useless in HSpace.

Broadswords didn't begin mounting torpedos until 2648 (they entered service in 2632). Like the rest of the bombers on that list, they existed purely for space-to-ground (or ground-to-ground) airstrikes.

Yar Battleship(Zulu is what the Confederation calls it)

That dog won't hunt -- ignoring the fact that it doesn't make sense for Confed to have a secret code name for only one Kilrathi ship, the same group of *humans* in Action Stations refer to ships as being 'Yar class' and 'Zulu class'.
 
Melbourne said:
Bengal CVE(smaller version, will increase in size later on)

The original variant of the Bengal is still a Strike Carrier and while, slightly smaller, is pretty much the equal of the later Bengals in fighting power. It's not a CVE by any stretch of the imagination.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
My notes say we won't see the Corsair until 2639.

Still within reasonable distance as far as prototype. Some real-world vehicles take decades to pass from prototype to reality. That is without the nuclear engines.

Bandit LOAF said:
The original Rapier has been in service for more than a hundred years as of the outset of the war... it's hardly a prototype. :) (and the Rapier II won't enter service for another two decades).

A hundred year old fighter craft... ouch. I'd like to have it for when times progresses to the point of the Rapier II, but having 3 junkers(Minotaur, Wildcat, and Rapier) isn't going to help them out much. It'll probably be relegated to more of a mercenary role if anything.

Bandit LOAF said:
That dog won't hunt -- ignoring the fact that it doesn't make sense for Confed to have a secret code name for only one Kilrathi ship, the same group of *humans* in Action Stations refer to ships as being 'Yar class' and 'Zulu class'.

I guess both could be codenames, but the reason I fixated on Zulu was due to it being a human word. It doesn't have the hard consonants or result in any spittle flying from my mouth when I try to say it so I just don't see it as a coincidence word. Yar could be a codename based on mutual racial acquaintance which the Kilrathi's designed the ship like. I'm really not sure there.
 
I think Kilrathi ships are either 'all or nothing' when it comes to code names... either every single one is a code name, or none of them are (G) I can't see how it'd make sense, otherwise.

(The Rapier (I) isn't related to the Rapier II at all... completely different craft. Think P-47 Thunderbolt versus A-10 Thunderbolt II...)

(Also -- remove the Snaker superdreadnought from my list... checked my notes at home, and it doesn't enter service until '49)
 
question. that reference to the scimitar, rapier and the broadsword are out of the movie and/or their related books like TCH?
Yeah yeah, I know youre going to say "Movie is canon"
what i want to know if its taken from what came with the movie or what came with the games (their books and, in an extent, the cartoon)

Cause neither of those ships are mentionined in Action Stations, same goes to most of the kat ships you (loaf) listed
 
A Wing Commander Mush... that'd be awesome. I've mushed for a few years (well, not for a while) in other fantasy type games, ie SW and LoTR, but I've always wanted a WC Mush. Have you got anything solid loaded up on a server we can visit yet?

Regardless.. keep us posted! :)
 
As for the codenames, I'd say there could be a mix of codenames and regular names for two reasons.
A. Authour's perogative. William Forstchen seemed to be trying to draw the reader's eyes to the parallels of Pearl Harbour and what happened at McAuliffe. If he used codenames(like how codenames were given to Japanese fighter... Zero, Betty.. etc)
B. The other reason could be that Intelligence has figured out the names, but most of them are far too difficult to pronounce with a Human tongue. It really wouldn't be good if a fighter pilot was going into battle, "I've got a... ah...a.....yeah, I've got a fighter on by 6."

It does make sense though if it is all or nothing, though. Due to it being text-based, they will probably end up having Kilrathi names no matter what.

Considering the major hand Roberts had in the creation of the movie, I'd have to take whatever is presented in it as canon. Honestly, I think a lot of people just overreacted to the mysticism involved with the Pilgrims. Certain groups just breed certain skills, it isn't like he was launching hellfire from his forearm.

As for the MUSH, we've been cracking away at it for quite some time in developing the base code, borrowing some other, and getting everything built. We are getting near opening but we are still keeping the server private until we have pretty much everything set and people can come in to play. The last thing you want as a MU is to end up with a buggy, unfinished universe. People can get that from graphic-based games.
 
question. that reference to the scimitar, rapier and the broadsword are out of the movie and/or their related books like TCH?
Yeah yeah, I know youre going to say "Movie is canon"
what i want to know if its taken from what came with the movie or what came with the games (their books and, in an extent, the cartoon)

Cause neither of those ships are mentionined in Action Stations, same goes to most of the kat ships you (loaf) listed

Out of the 17 Kilrathi classes I mentioned, 11 of them are mentioned only in Action Stations. I think that constitutes 'most'.

As for the Rapier, Broadsword and Scimitar. The fact that the Scimitar was around at the start of the war comes from the original Wing Commander game.

Since the Rapier (CF-117) only exists in 'movie sources' at this point, it must come from one of them...? (Specifically, the Handbook gives its age.)

The specific service entry date for the Broadsword (2632) comes from the Handbook as well, though WCATV had already pushed the Broadsword back in time quite a bit.

As for the codenames, I'd say there could be a mix of codenames and regular names for two reasons.

Personally, I'd say that it's mostly code-names... which explains some of the odd duplications (multiple Sivars, multiple Grathas, etc.). Plus, we know that (at the very elast) the Sivar in SM1 is a code-name.
 
Now that the ship classes are nailed down I'd like to get some of the technology. This early in time, what do we have going for the ground troops, the fighters, the medicine, and the cap-ships? Just about anything interesting invented in technology would be good.

From what I can tell, phase-shielding hasn't yet been introduced because the previous level of shielding was enough to stop most weaponry. It was only after the introduction of torpedos that phase-shielding was used on some of the ships.... or was phase-shielding around all the time? I'm a little unsure on both counts.

I know mass-drivers are around and most of the missiles are in service(types would be good to know) but are lasers already used a lot? It would appear the early ships, other than the cap-ships, were forced to use mass-drivers instead due to size constraints and then as the war goes on the laser begin to be more effective when on ships.

Terran Confederation
Mass-Driver -> Laser Cannon(probably mk10-15) -> Neutron Gun ->Particle Cannon->Laser Cannon(15-28)->Plasma Gun ->Ion Gun -> Tachyon Beam...

Missiles would be Javelin, Pilum,Darts.

For Kilrathi it would go, Mass-Driver -> Lasers ->Photo Cannon->Neutron Guns->Particle Cannon->Plasma Bolt->Meson Blaster->Tachyons

Missiles would be... did they ever have names?

I think the TC would be up to Neutron Gun and the Kilrathi would be up to Plasma Bolt?

Another thing I'm looking at right now is what the marines would have and what hand-hold weaponry would be at. I never really liked the idea of handheld rapid-fire lasers much. So, what I've been leaning to has been along the lines of mostly normal ballistics with heavier armour being immune to the ballistics. This requires the use of laser rifles which have a very slow rate of fire. Pretty much, it is almost like a musket... just with the power to fry somebody. Another thing I've been looking at is portable shielding. I don't see much of a problem for that considering the size of fighters.

Most minor engagements would still be with ballistics weaponry. Any other suggestions or does this seem interesting?

As for medicine, it would seem cancer is eradicated, the common cold is still a pain, and there are minor bio-mechanical adjustments. This area I'm still trying to figure out. I don't want to make it 'too Sci-Fi' or else the game would capture WC's charm of semi-reality and connection with the current day. However, I do want to add interesting things that enhance the immersion level. Any ideas?

Beyond that... sports, games, anything. Any speculation on the subject is welcome. What was WC like beyond the ship?
 
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