Post-war politics

[Dragon1]

Hello everyone,

Just how many ships did the Kilrathi field post-war? I know Melek in WC4 stated that all of their warships were dismantled as part of the Treaty of Torgo, but in 2681, we see 2 or perhaps 3 'carrier groups' engage a Nephilim force. In these groups exist at least 2 Fleet Carriers and one Fralthi II-class Cruiser. Were these vessels new constructions?

The Kilrathi central command (I believe) was in the Pasqual system. Could it be that the Clans were secretly building a force to retake their empire?

Luckily enough for Confed, the Midway was near enough to engage Nephilim forces before any of the frontier colonies (like Nephele and Hellespont) were taken out. Actually, judging by the response time of the Eisen carrier group and other reinforcements that took part in that campaign, a Kilrathi force of 2-3 Carriers and some Cruisers could have done considerable damage before being repelled. Was there no active fleet patrols in the marches between the Vega-Epsilon and Kilrah-M'shrak sectors? Did Confed just 'trust' that the Kilrathi would never again organize and attack? We hear of increased Kirathi pirate raids. A large fleet anchored around some carriers and cruisers sounds like a little more than a raid. Perhaps the Nephilim Invasion of 2681 was a blessing in diguise.

 

[d3r3k]

Not all ships were dismantled. A Kilrathi noble (the name escapes me) procures a large fleet in False Colors. If you want information on politics after the treaty, that book would probably be your best source.

 

[Dragon1]

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get my hands on False Colors.

What about Confed's lackluster response to the First Nephilim Invasion of 2681? Confed operated bases in what was Kilrathi space. Why did it require a commodore and a second lieutenant to fly to a comm relay to get a signal to Confed HQ, and days before any response? Were there not rapid deployment forces to deal with the possible threat of invasion on the frontier?

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Just how many ships did the Kilrathi field post-war?

Officially, none. The Confederation imposed a strict treaty on the Kilrathi after the war. The novels liken the Treaty of Torgo to the Treaty of Versailles. Melek talks about having to dismantle (and hunt down) existing warships.

That is to say that the recognized government, the Assembly of Clans, does not pose a threat to the Confederation. Isolated warlords and radical Sivarists, like Ragark in False Colors, do maintain warships against the terms of the treaty.

That recognized, the Confederation isn't worried about them outside of interdicting piracy - which is a problem anywhere - because the Kilrathi are engaged in a violent five way civil war. If there's a rogue cruiser or two out there, they're being used to fight other Kilrathi to install a new emperor, not for suicidal strikes against random human settlements.

I know Melek in WC4 stated that all of their warships were dismantled as part of the Treaty of Torgo, but in 2681, we see 2 or perhaps 3 'carrier groups' engage a Nephilim force. In these groups exist at least 2 Fleet Carriers and one Fralthi II-class Cruiser. Were these vessels new constructions?

I don't think the Prophecy quote is anywhere near this specific about what the fleet consisted on. Rather, it's vauge as to which side it's even actually talking about. Verbatim: "Probably lost 3 full wings of fighters, but didn't get them all before they got hit. Nothing's moving now. Could of been two, maybe three, carrier groups. Computer reads Fralthi II Class. Seems to of missed most of the blast. Whatever hit 'em completely obliterated the whole damn fleet."

Who lost three full wings of fighters? The Nephilim, presumably, since the Kilrathi "didn't get them all before they got hit". So, then, what does the 'two, maybe three, carrier groups' refer to? The Kilrathi fleet that was destroyed or an assumption as to the Nephilim fleet that would have been involved in the attack? Saying that the Kilrathi have carrier groups because of this quote and a picture of part of a cruiser is pretty iffy.

The Kilrathi central command (I believe) was in the Pasqual system. Could it be that the Clans were secretly building a force to retake their empire?

Melek's placeholder government was in the Pasqual System. Presumably he would/will hand the government over to whoever comes out on top in the civil war. (Incidentally, I've always thought a good way for Origin to 'bring back the cats' would be to do Vietnam in Space, and have the Confederation become entangled in the Kilrathi Civil War...)

Luckily enough for Confed, the Midway was near enough to engage Nephilim forces before any of the frontier colonies (like Nephele and Hellespont) were taken out. Actually, judging by the response time of the Eisen carrier group and other reinforcements that took part in that campaign, a Kilrathi force of 2-3 Carriers and some Cruisers could have done considerable damage before being repelled. Was there no active fleet patrols in the marches between the Vega-Epsilon and Kilrah-M'shrak sectors? Did Confed just 'trust' that the Kilrathi would never again organize and attack? We hear of increased Kirathi pirate raids. A large fleet anchored around some carriers and cruisers sounds like a little more than a raid. Perhaps the Nephilim Invasion of 2681 was a blessing in diguise.

Having a carrier - which I really don't think the Kilrathi do - isn't necessarily a threat. I'm sure the US Navy doesn't spend an inordinate amount of time worrying about what the Charles de Gual could theoretically attack. This is twelve years after the war -- the Confederation has to stop seeing cats in every shadow at some point (if that were ever an issue).

Still, I'm not sure where you're going with this. I don't see how the fact that the Midway was the ship closest to the action means that the Confederation *doesn't* have forces on the frontier. As soon as the Midway re-established contact with the Confederation they had a heavy carrier battle group there -- it was just the fact that the Nephilim started their invasion by knocking out the communications network in the area (which is what the Midway was specifically dealing with) that was an issue.

What about Confed's lackluster response to the First Nephilim Invasion of 2681? Confed operated bases in what was Kilrathi space. Why did it require a commodore and a second lieutenant to fly to a comm relay to get a signal to Confed HQ, and days before any response? Were there not rapid deployment forces to deal with the possible threat of invasion on the frontier?

... because the installation created specifically to do that - the comm relay that you mentioned - was captured by the enemy before it could call for reinforcements.

Still, I think you're taking a Midway-centric view of all this -- the Midway happened to be behind enemy lines when the invasion started... but there was plenty of fighting in other areas. We hear about millions of casualties in border conflicts during the invasion -- Confed was fighting the Nephilim, they just didn't know the needed to help the Midway until she asked for assistance (and with the data she gathered, they formulated a plan to get to Kilrah.

 

[Dragon1]

don't think the Prophecy quote is anywhere near this specific about what the fleet consisted on. Rather, it's vauge as to which side it's even actually talking about. Verbatim: "Probably lost 3 full wings of fighters, but didn't get them all before they got hit. Nothing's moving now. Could of been two, maybe three, carrier groups. Computer reads Fralthi II Class. Seems to of missed most of the blast. Whatever hit 'em completely obliterated the whole damn fleet."

Who lost three full wings of fighters? The Nephilim, presumably, since the Kilrathi "didn't get them all before they got hit". So, then, what does the 'two, maybe three, carrier groups' refer to? The Kilrathi fleet that was destroyed or an assumption as to the Nephilim fleet that would have been involved in the attack? Saying that the Kilrathi have carrier groups because of this quote and a picture of part of a cruiser is pretty iffy.

Oh.... See what happens when you take a quote out of context. I think this makes alot more sense now. Although, my only question is if Confed has never seen these forces before, how would they know to classify them into 'carrier groups? Unless, of course they are just using a standard method of categtorizing ships.

Still, I think you're taking a Midway-centric view of all this -- the Midway happened to be behind enemy lines when the invasion started... but there was plenty of fighting in other areas.

Perhaps, but the game itself had a very Midway-centric feel.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Oh.... See what happens when you take a quote out of context. I think this makes alot more sense now. Although, my only question is if Confed has never seen these forces before, how would they know to classify them into 'carrier groups? Unless, of course they are just using a standard method of categtorizing ships.

Well, clearly they're not looking directly at something and deciding that it's a carrier group - because they can't decide on an exact number. I think it's more along the lines of 'it must have taken two or three carrier groups to cause this amount of damage'.

Perhaps, but the game itself had a very Midway-centric feel.

Well, yeah, it was set on the Midway.

Think about it: Prophecy is presenting the war from the perspective of a junior pilot on the Midway... and for half the story the carrier itself is completely cut off from communications with the rest of the Confederation.

There's no way you could know what was going on.

Heck, Prophecy itself puts a damper on the Midway-as-lone-wolf when Battle Group Eisen shows up -- the Eisen actually moves *ahead* of the Midway to clear out the Nephilim. We only hear about that in briefings because again Casey is a pilot in the Midway... but it's clear evidence that there's a lot more going on than just the Midway playing tag with Hydra squadrons.

 

[Paddybhoy]

Well I always thought the mention of carrier groups was in reference to the Kat casualties

"Whatever hit 'em completely obliterated the whole damn fleet."

This would seem to indicate the the Confed recon team didn't know anything about the nature and compostion of the enemy forces, this combined with the fact that the cats managed to damage the ship killer would indicate the they had quite a significant force present (Some Kilrathi knew of a distant threat at the time of WC4 although it is very possible that this knowledge died with Kilrah and the Emperor and so they might've been trying to rally a defensive force)

 

[Dragon1]

I see your point LOAF. I was just saying that the perspective of the player (from a lowly 2nd Lieutenant) seemed somewhat insular. I remember the Eisen carrier group, but I didn't recall it moving ahead of the Midway. I stand corrected.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

This would seem to indicate the the Confed recon team didn't know anything about the nature and compostion of the enemy forces, this combined with the fact that the cats managed to damage the ship killer wouls indicate the they had quite a significant force present

As I said, it's a very vauge quote -- but you're making the same mistake Dragon did at the start of the thread and cutting out one individual piece without the context.

(Some Kilrathi knew of a distant threat at the time of WC4 although it is very possible that this knowledge died with Kilrah and the Emperor and so they might've been trying to rally a defensive force)

This is a reference to the Mantu, who are known to the Confederation in 2681.

 

[Paddybhoy]

This is a reference to the Mantu, who are known to the Confederation in 2681

I know that, you know that but did the Kats know that? The Mantu had been vilified and mystified almost to the point of being as mysterious as the Nephs so its very possible that the Kats idn't have a clue what they were facing.

Sorry for answering in the wrong sequence but a theres a few things that can corroborate my assumption

1. If the comment the Fighter wings was about Neph casualties and not Kilrathi (which does make more sense grammatically I concede) then the cats themselves must have had a strong force regardless of the presence of any Carriers in their group.

2.If the Kats didn't have any carriers why did the nephs attack with fighters at all? Why didn;t they just use the Ship Killer straight away? (obviously this can be countered with the possibility the the Cat cruisers themselve could hold a significant force of fighters and possibly bombers, perhaps it took time to get the ship killer operational and the fighters were sent as a distraction) but then you have to take into account the damage done to the ship killer, damage most probably done by torpedoes which indicates (but doesn't prove) the presence of bombers

3.Why was a Fralthi 2 class cruiser at the outskirts of the fleet? If the Kats were so inconsequential to confeds border security why would such a powerful vessel at the outskirts of a so called rag tag fleet be relegated to picket duty, unless it was guarding at least one carrier (Kat Fleet might've been improperly deployed or the Cruiser, acting as flag ship was attempting to retreat at the moment of its destruction but neither seems quite right)

4.In prohecy the CAG makes special mention of just how dangerous the Ship Killer is by emphasising its destruction of the Kilrathi fleet (I cant remember the exact quote) that would seem to indicate that she thought the kilrathi force was quite formidable

 

[Bandit LOAF]

You're not looking at this from the perspective of the Midway. At that point in the story (literally, the start of the story), no one knows that the ship killer exists. They think the Kilrathi have been attacked by someone - in all likelyhood, other Kilrathi. The SWACS is looking at the scene and theorizing as to what's happened to cause that amount of destruction with the information they have at hand -- not in terms of what actually happened.

 

[Paddybhoy]

ogh right, i thought you were saying definitavely that there were no Kilrathi carriers, I guess I jumped the gun, my bad!

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Oh, well, I guess I'd probably be willing to make that claim too -- Prophecy's writeup for the Dratlhi says "... there are no known functioning Kirlathi carriers in existence". (Which, presumably means something nasty happened to Ragark et. al. at some point between False Colors and Prophecy).

 

[Dragon1]

I just found something very interesting re-reading the ICIS manual:

The Devastator’s massive plasma cannon is essentially a smaller version of the same weapon carried by capital ships. Virtually useless against fighters (due to its very slow firing rate), this extremely powerful weapon can cause significant damage to starships, and is by far the platform of choice when it comes to striking heavily defended and armoured targets like battleships and heavy cruisers.

Did Confed operate BBs in 2680/2681? The description for the Shrike bomber plainly states that she was effective against vessels of 'light cruiser' size and downward. Now the BB reference could indicate any capship (WC1 notoriously called Exeter class Destroyers BBs), but given the context of, "...heavily defended and armoured targets like battleships and heavy cruisers", would seem to indicate Col. Manley was talking about the gun-heavy ships of the pre-McAullife days.

Perhaps Confed utilizing new Plasma Gun technology decided to refit and recommission some old BBs, like John Lehman did in the 80's. Maybe the reference itself was meant for Dreadnoughts (like the Kilrathi H'varkann (Sp?) or the older Snakier)? What do you guys think?

 

[Wulf]

During a couple of cinematics in Secret Ops, Confed battleships are seen engaging the enemy. They kinda remind me of the old Oklahoma-class battleships of WW1-2 with turrets above and below the hull.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Did Confed operate BBs in 2680/2681? The description for the Shrike bomber plainly states that she was effective against vessels of 'light cruiser' size and downward. Now the BB reference could indicate any capship (WC1 notoriously called Exeter class Destroyers BBs), but given the context of, "...heavily defended and armoured targets like battleships and heavy cruisers", would seem to indicate Col. Manley was talking about the gun-heavy ships of the pre-McAullife days.

Well, again, context -- the quotation isn't about something the Confederation necessarily has, it's about something the Confederation would need to have a bomber go up against.

The Confederation's post-war fighters will be designed to fight the last aggressor... and we know that the Kilrathi build a 'modern' class of battleship alongside their Hakaga-class ships in 2668. Presumably the Devastator is an answer to those warships.

During a couple of cinematics in Secret Ops, Confed battleships are seen engaging the enemy. They kinda remind me of the old Oklahoma-class battleships of WW1-2 with turrets above and below the hull.

Are you thinking of Nevada-class battleships?

The ships in the cutscenes that you're thinking of are Plunkett-class Heavy Artillery Cruisers.

 

[Dragon1]

The Confederation's post-war fighters will be designed to fight the last aggressor... and we know that the Kilrathi build a 'modern' class of battleship alongside their Hakaga-class ships in 2668. Presumably the Devastator is an answer to those warships.

I know, this is why I referenced the H'varkann and Snakier. I just thought the usage of Battleship and not Carrier was interesting. In the post-war age, I believe it had pretty much been decided that the focal point of space warfare was not the cruiser or battleship, but the carrier. That's what stuck out in my head about the reference.

Oklahoma-class battleships of WW1-2 with turrets above and below the hull.

USS Nevada BB-36
USS Oklahoma BB-37

The turreted main batteries were 14" guns. The hull (casemated) guns were the 'secondary' guns on Battleships of this era, the 5"/51cal SP.

 

[Wulf]

Are you thinking of Nevada-class battleships?

The ships in the cutscenes that you're thinking of are Plunkett-class Heavy Artillery Cruisers.

I'm from Oklahoma, so by all that is holy, they're Oklahoma-class!..........yeah, they're Nevadas, my mistake Shoulda Googled before I posted...

Anyway, those Plunketts kick butt! Just have at least two at every major junction, and you have a nice defensive line. By the time the BBs are ready to fall back, reinforcements are well on their way to clean up the mess.

 

[Nomad Terror]

Well the Plunketts are not BBs, they're cruisers. Just with lots of firepower.

 

[Maj.Striker]

They kinda remind me of the old Oklahoma-class battleships of WW1-2 with turrets above and below the hull.

The Oklahoma class had turrets below the hull???