Penny-Arcade and WC Movie

Bandit LOAF said:
I agree. Enterprise treats Star Trek pretty much the same way the Wing Commander movie treated WC -- it throws out a lot of useless fanon.
I'm assuming here you meant canon.

Bandit LOAF said:
I'll bet Tchéky Karyo would take issue with your criticism of his accent -- since he is, afterall, *French*. Perhaps you're just not fluent?
Dear GOD... the French actually talk like that? No wonder people hate them...

Bandit LOAF said:
I'm pretty sure the movie never claims that Angel is British (and on the same coin, that the game never claims she's French).
"Mon Ami" among other phrases, the speech addon to WC2 rendering her voice as the obvious "french girl" accent... Yeah. They don't claim she was British, nor did they claim she was French, but they damn sure gave us just a tiny bit of Origin-made canon that was tossed aside. Including Paladin's horrible scottish accent. The WCM Paladin never said "Ach, laddie." Not once. The games seemed to think it was required to communicate. How he became Jaques Ceustau(I know, that's probably spelled wrong) during the transition from game to film? Hell if I know.

Bandit LOAF said:
Again, two sides: 1) the game never contradicts this and 2) it never happens in the movie.
You're RIGHT. :eek: But they DID kiss. You'd think that someone who had had thier tounge in your mouth would have more to say six months later but "Hello, mon ami, I am Angel. Have a seat."

Bandit LOAF said:
This had nothing to do with the movie -- Maniac and Blair went to the academy together. It's been a standard part of Wing Commander lore since the WC1/2 Guide at the earliest (Claw Marks implies it, too). A whole TV series was made about the concept.
This was one I couldn't be bothered to quibble about. CR established this one multiple times, and I'm willing to admit I was wrong.

Bandit LOAF said:
I tend to give this one to people -- it's a continuity error. It can be explained, but it takes more steps than I like to claim are obvious. I wrote a nice fanfic outline for it for that comic book project: https://www.wcnews.com/loaf/comicoutline.txt


Bandit LOAF said:
You mean both of the ones you see in the movie?
We see more than two.


Bandit LOAF said:
Didn't Star Trek redesign the Klingons several times? (Including both Klingons with mohawks and Klingons with gigantic breasts.)
Didn't know they did mowhawks, but the big breasts thing I did notice.


Bandit LOAF said:
Quoth Maniac, "You must be a lot of fun on a date."
My fiancee seems to think so.(she's also a fan of WC, bonus!)

Bandit LOAF said:
Seriously, though, I wonder what fifteen things you managed to find objectionable during the credits montage, the attack on Pegasus and the start of a conversation between Admiral Tolwyn and Commodore Bellegarde.
OK, I'll admit... it was closer to the first 15 minutes.

Bandit LOAF said:
Your complaint is simply that it's casting you didn't agree with, not that it's some sort of broad, incorrect choice that was made based on greed or idiocy or pandering. And claiming the latter is just wrong.
Is it?
Bandit LOAF said:
Incidentally, I think the casting was one of the few elements of the Wing Commander movie that was genuinely inspired. The 'fresh' (I know, how dare they cast people who later became famous among a demograph you don't like) American actors as the rookies with a very international cast as the veterans made for a really nice dichotomy.
I still believe the acting stank.

Bandit LOAF said:
While I will agree that yes, these words do form sentences of sorts, I don't really follow them beyond that. Lets hear some details instead of vauge, inane, populist claims that are designed to offend people without actually having to say anything. "Commercialism"? How? I, for one, would be fascinated to learn how the Wing Commander movie fits that bill. The *public*? What's the issue with the public? What's the implication here? That everyone but you is stupid -- that movies shouldn't be mare for people? What? And as always, I'd love to hear the internet jerk redefinition of the word plot. I've been enjoying that one for years.
Bad plot+picky people who know nothing of the games/books=worse plot.


Bandit LOAF said:
So you have a problem with "teen idols", but you're a fan of all these inane pseud-intelligent pop teen movies?
I fail to see how something which makes you think is "pseudo-intelligent". The movies were, however, popular among teens and adults alike.

Well, I'd continue, but my american brain can only keep focused for about 10 minutes at a time. I'll continue this some other time.
 
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Fanon refers to fanfiction that tries to be canon. See also: Lowest form of the intelligence foodchain.
 
I'm assuming here you meant canon.

No, I meant what I said -- "fanon" is one of those dollar fifty fandom words, probably created by Trekkies in the first place. It refers to the idea that fan communities gradually create their own "assumed beliefs" about the background of a universe without it ever being stated. Does Enterprise actually contradict anything by bringing in the borg? No -- in fact, the episode very clearly followed a storyline established in one of the movies... but people were up in arms because it *implied* something they hadn't decided before.

A smart writer for a franchise has to have a modicum of respect for 'fanon' -- but you can't let it prevent you from writing stories you'd like to tell.

Dear GOD... the French actually talk like that? No wonder people hate them...

When speaking English as a second language, yes, they do. I'd be willing to bed my French sounds pretty awful to a native -- the whole 'speed' of the language is different and hard to duplicate. (Paladin is a good benchmark -- like most of the secondary characters in Wing Commander, Karyo is a highly respected actor in his country of origin).

"Mon Ami" among other phrases, the speech addon to WC2 rendering her voice as the obvious "french girl" accent... Yeah. They don't claim she was British, nor did they claim she was French, but they damn sure gave us just a tiny bit of Origin-made canon that was tossed aside. Including Paladin's horrible scottish accent. The WCM Paladin never said "Ach, laddie." Not once. The games seemed to think it was required to communicate. How he became Jaques Ceustau(I know, that's probably spelled wrong) during the transition from game to film? Hell if I know.

Sorry, I guess the minimalist approach didn't take. Angel is and always has been from *Belgium*. From Claw Marks to the movie novelization, Belgium is referenced as her country of origin.

Saffron Burrows is a British actress, but she was playing a Belgian character. Hollywood has a long and storied tradition of casting British actresses to play French-speaking characters... take for instance, Patrick Stewart as Captain Picard -- who talked frequently about his boyhood days in France in what was very clearly a British accent. A British accent implies 'foreign' to people without being incomprehensible -- look how you yourself reacted to a character with an actual French accent.

You're RIGHT. But they DID kiss. You'd think that someone who had had thier tounge in your mouth would have more to say six months later but "Hello, mon ami, I am Angel. Have a seat."

On a similar note you could say it makes their embrace in Wing Commander II all the more likely.

We see more than two.

My production notes say that three were built -- the captain, the admiral and a generic warrior... the generic one has a helmet on, though, and only appears in brief flashes (ie, shown briefly on a monitor at Pegasus). The guys at Digital Anvil tried to remove as much footage of the Kilrathi as possible, because they didn't turn out well at all... I know we were all horrified by them when the movie came out, but if you go back and watch it again they're only on screen for a few very brief (few second a piece) scenes.

Bad plot+picky people who know nothing of the games/books=worse plot.

You said that there was *no* plot, though -- not a *bad* plot.

I fail to see how something which makes you think is "pseudo-intelligent". The movies were, however, popular among teens and adults alike.

They're not really movies that make you think, though. They're movies that try to make themselves look smart enough that their very generic points end up being impressive to you. Fight Club is to thinking what mastrubation is to sex. It feels good and there's some neat quotes that sound smart and cool when repeated over and over in livejournals everywhere, but on the whole its pretty empty.
 
I find it hard to believe that somebody willing to write his own fan-fiction arc to explain a character's return from the dead is unwilling to follow the assumed romantic connection between Blair and Angel forged in the movie.
 
BenoitBrunet2 said:
I find it hard to believe that somebody willing to write his own fan-fiction arc to explain a character's return from the dead is unwilling to follow the assumed romantic connection between Blair and Angel forged in the movie.

Heck, I'm willing to follow it -- I have to, because Peter Telep did... :) But if pressed, I'll point out how it ties into a quote from Super Wing Commander, I'll go over the possible meanings of the WC1 introductions again and I'll talk about the nature of their relationship in Wing Commander 2 and how it supports an earlier connection...

... but only if I have to. I tend to be pretty conservative as to where I take these arguments (G)
 
Well that was written to address a request for a story arc for this wing commander comic project. Anyway he just said that their relationship in the movie is continued on in Wing Commander 2. (timeline-wise obviously)

During the game, Blair and Devereaux say many things in French to one another and I understand that translated they are basically talking about how much they care for each other.
 
I would actually like to see those quotes, to be perfectly honest. And how much of the explanation is hard fact, and how much is an interpretation of game quotes, introductions and events towards the purpose of supporting your point of view? I ask this not petulantly, but in honest curiosity. You can interpret a wide range of meaning beyond what is actually in the text.
 
Well that was written to address a request for a story arc for this wing commander comic project.

Yes, indeed -- please don't think too badly of me over the Bossman piece; It's the only fan fiction I've ever written. It was a scenario some of us played out (based on an End Run[/u} quote about letters home) some years back that I added a bit of a dramatic arc to for the comic contest.

I would actually like to see those quotes, to be perfectly honest. And how much of the explanation is hard fact, and how much is an interpretation of game quotes, introductions and events towards the purpose of supporting your point of view? I ask this not petulantly, but in honest curiosity. You can interpret a wide range of meaning beyond what is actually in the text.

The quote I'm referring to is from the 'ghost' scene of Super Wing Commander -- any wingmen who died during the game have brief inspirational voiceovers at the very end of the game (so, if you're playing properly, you only hear from Bossman). Angel's is something along the lines of "Maverick, I've always loved you!"

(Super Wing Commander adds a number of dialogue elements designed as a prequel for Wing Commander II (presumably a Super Wing Commander 2 was in the cards at some point)... including things like a bit of flirting between Maverick and Angel (and some lead-up for the stealth fighters!).)

As for Wing Commander II, I'm just thinking about the nature of how the Angel/Blair relationship started... they were comisserating over Spirit's death and then they kissed. At the time, it was completely out of the blue -- there was no prelude at all. To me that supports the idea that something happened between them in the past...
 
http://home.iprimus.com.au/Wedge009/WC2/Heaven.html

Ten minutes later…
Maverick: Jeannette, I tried to save her. But I couldn’t…
Angel: I know, mon cher [my dear]. Christopher, I have given my life to this war… We win back one planet, only to lose two more… paying for our victories in blood. And for what? I’ve lost so many friends, seen so many deaths… There is nothing left in me, Christopher, nothing at all…
Maverick: I’m still here, Angel. And I’m not leaving.

(kiss scene)

Devereaux calls Blair "my dear" even before the kiss, which implies some kind of affection between them.


http://home.iprimus.com.au/Wedge009/WC2/KTithrak.html

Meanwhile…
Colonel Devereaux’s Office, TCS Concordia.
Jazz: You had a question about my report, Angel?
Angel: I need to know more about K’Tithrak Mang…
Jazz: It’ll be easy, Colonel. Once the Agincourt jumps in–
Angel: Agincourt? How do you know about the Agincourt? Very clever, Jazz. You stole Stingray’s wings–
Jazz: Too bad he was with Sparks when McGuffin died… I hoped he’d be court-martialled, just like your loverboy. I’ve still got his flight recorder disk. Kind of a souvenir– Hey! Hands off the comm button, Angel… We both know I’m not afraid to use this.

"loverboy," speaking obviously of Blair (in the context of the flight recorder disk)


I was mistaken. The actual feelings quotes start in SO1, aside from mon cher that is.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/Wedge009/WC2/Pembroke.html

Angel: Christopher, this is Jeannette. I wanted to tell you… sois prudent, mon amour [be careful, my love].
Maverick: Je t’aime [I love you]. I’ll be careful, love.


http://home.iprimus.com.au/Wedge009/WC2/Ghorah1.html

Angel: Christopher, I heard you are leaving with Paladin in a few minutes. I will miss you. Sans toi, tout ça n’a pas beaucoup de sens. [Without you, nothing makes much sense.]
Maverick: I know, Jeannette. I feel the same way… Without you, my life has no meaning.
 
Yeah, Nomad, WC 2 is kinda clear, I wasn't really talking about that.

Thanks Loaf. I know there's supposed to be something between them on the Tiger's Claw. The support materials I have read (manuals, strategy guides etc...) always make reference to the fact that a relationship started to develop, but never actually came about between the two characters. It's always read, to me, more like they were close, but not intimate. It seemed to fit with Angel's personality that she would resist a relationship, and made further sense that a traumatic event, Spirit, would be the only thing that could (true to the movie-like quality of the game) break through her emotional armor.

I was more referring to the Bossman angle than anything else. The romantic timeline has always been very clear cut. I thought you had meant that there was more support for the POW arc. Did that get covered in Telep's novels, I haven't been able to get my hands on those yet.
 
I think that the Bossman thing was just an inconsistency in the movie to add some kind of dramatic history and reality to the war, like LOAF said.

I think he just made the POW thing up as an explanation to get things back in consistency because it could work.
 
He's right, it could. If you're willing to make the leap. His post just seemed to be hinting that there was a support for the POW arc as well as the Romance bit.
 
"Quote:
Lt. Commander "Bossman" Chen dying months before you meet him in WC1,
I tend to give this one to people -- it's a continuity error. It can be explained, but it takes more steps than I like to claim are obvious."

I've never ready anyone's fanfic, but explanations for this are easy and actually takes FEW steps...Although no explanaion for his death and return is "probable" there are many that are quite possible... 1 which requires NO steps... and that is: MIA (yes his fighter is still there... maybe they found it in Kilrathi space with no pilot (after ejecting)... maybe he flew a diff. fighter just like we switch between them in the games (i.e. he flew a longbow on a bomber mission). Of course I don't need to explain all the ways MIA people return.. it happens frequently and in almost every war..
Why doesn't he recognize the name "bossman" Chen? Well: people in WCM are supposed to forget he ever existed.. so he never pondered the guy again and naturally forgot the callsign.. and Chen is a common last name.. billions of asians + only a few main last names = alot of Chen's- I know several of them...
 
Of course we agree several things in this movie are annoying... we could have a seperate thread dedicated to the "most annoying (or crappiest or messed up..etc.) part of WCM". But one thing above all SERIOUSLY bugs me about this movie, and I hope but doubt someone can come up with a reasonable explanation for it: "Why in the stupid screenwriter's hell did they bulldoze the fighter off the carrier!!??" We've already discussed how stupid it is that there's gravity.. but I could deal with that (artificial grav.? well I don't care anyway). What really bugs me is that there seems to be no valid reason to shove her off!!! I never saw any proof that she was dead first of all. Maybe her life support system registered that she was dead!?? Even so, with the hits her fighter took, maybe it was a malfunction... also Angel ordered it shoved off without consulting any sort of life support readout... Maybe they were in a hurry to jump out? There was a bulldozer right there!!!! Have it shove her in instead of out!!!! Maybe anyone who crashes like that is known to be dead without a doubt.. I doubt it... But lets even assume we're sure she's 100% dead.. OK. so with the scarcity of fighters (which we learn from all Chris Roberts games after we bail out) why don't they take the fighter in and fix it or scrap it for parts!!?? You don't need to ever play a WC game to know this!! Fix it, scrap it for parts, and give the girl a proper burial (or at the very least take her out of the fighter and have the bull dozer shove her dead carcus off the ship.. yes, insensitive and I disagree with it, but that's how they treated her anyway) CAN anyone make sense of this!!!!!!!!?????? If so you get 4 big :D :D :D :D 's from me
 
Whoopass: When you're in the middle of a combat op, and you need to land fighters after someone took a big pranger like Rosie's, you've got two options - one is to delay 15-20 minutes while you pull the thing off to one side (after making reasonbly sure the fighter's fuel tanks won't explode on you and wipe out the hangar's contents) and THEN make sure the runway's clear for landing ops. Option #2 is to shove the thing over the side, make sure the runway's clear, and then finish landing everyone else after a minute or so's delay.

They were in the middle of a heavy fight at that point, and needed to get out; either they could've let the Kilrathi have another 20 minutes to kill everyone aboard, or else they could've let Rosie's fighter go (and I'm fairly certain the CIC would've had her biotelemetry) and then get everyone else landed. One life versus hundreds - it was as simple as that. One fighter's worth of parts versus a whole carrier, her crew, and her load of 100+ fighters - that's an equally simple choice to make.
 
You'll notice that Angel made the call there. Maniac was wanting them to drag the fighter in to pull her out. Angel wasn't too happy to make the call either. The ground crew were just following her orders.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
The quote I'm referring to is from the 'ghost' scene of Super Wing Commander -- any wingmen who died during the game have brief inspirational voiceovers at the very end of the game (so, if you're playing properly, you only hear from Bossman). Angel's is something along the lines of "Maverick, I've always loved you!"

That's very interesting.

Also interesting is the fact that it didn't happen, because, for Angel and Blair to have a romance, she had to survive. No that it matters, because it was a potential reality, and that counts at least to explain what could happen. And so what the message is about was probably true, even if it was never sent.

However, since we are on the topic of putting WCM with the rest of the universe, which includes WC1 and WCA, when I pointed out that Blair could be promoted to Major on WC1, and that it would kind of weird for a cadet to be so, I recall someone saying that it didn't count because it didn't happen. Well, it's still a potential reality, especially because it's really hard to win the Vega without being promoted to captain.

No, it doesn't mean anything is "incompatible", it's just a little odd. Ranks never made much sense on WC anyway, especially at that period. :)
 
There is also the whole thing with Blair's parents that I remember being talked about before but I cannot remember what all was said.

Anyway in WCATV he is composing messages for his parents throughout the series but in the movie his parents died before he was 5.

Maybe it had something to do with his WCATV parents being his adopted family or something.
 
Option #2 is to shove the thing over the side, make sure the runway's clear, and then finish landing everyone else after a minute or so's delay.
This is a better explaination than I had imagined getting. I didn't see though, how her fighter was in the way of others landing! They could easily fly over her and naturally would in order to land. If someone actually DID hit her, it would mean they were coming in too low to land anyway, and would have prob. also crashed there even if the damaged fighter wasn't there. Also, I understand that they were pressed for time, but it seemed to me that she was about as close to being inside the carrier as she was from falling off the side- so the bulldozer could have dropped her in in little time. Also, maybe the fighter could have exploded, but you'd think they could risk that for a seasoned pilot. They should be able to deal with that considering they're supposed to deal with missiles being shot in all the time and beat up ships that have been shot to hell frequently flying in (just think of how many hits the Kilrathi Cariers took when you flew inside one to destroy it).. + the fact that I don't think an explosion is likely... especially if the fighter didn't explode when the dozer picked it up. It seems like a desperate little thought out attempt to cause drama in the movie (one of many.. but IMHO the worst). Like many other parts in the movie it serves only to piss people off. But I appreciate the response and some decent theories... but I'm not sold, so I'll give 3 :) :) :)'s
 
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