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Eh eh... yeah... I mean nothing to loaf (:)) em... laugh about (considering the number of casualties :(), but even the BEF (British Expeditionary Force) was no match for Blitzkrieg...

I wonder... maybe McAuliffe's Terran force could have been names the CEF, Confed Expeditionary Force...
 
Yeah, the more I learn about it the Allies beating Hitler it seemes as if it was mostly because of incredibly good luck...

[Edited by Cricket on 03-28-2001 at 19:14]
 
Well, I don't know much about history, but I recall that it was the British who broke the German secret code, was it not?

I probably wouldn't care, except I was born in London, so I feel kinda partial to the Brits. :)
 
Originally posted by Wedge009
Well, I don't know much about history, but I recall that it was the British who broke the German secret code, was it not?
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Yes Whitehall crack the egnima machine codes, only the subs egnima escaped that since a fourth wheel was added for extra security, until a US crewman got one from a U-boat, something that he paid with his life.
Short after that a all whales (Subs Tankers that refuled U-Boats in the Atlantic) were hunted down and sunk since now the allies knew were they were.
 
Originally posted by mpanty


The legendary recruiting and training of pilots, and the air superiority of British fighters (whoops, somebdoy correct me if they think Messerschmitts and Stukas were better than Spitfires and Hurricanes :)) can be seen in the excellent movie, The Battle of Britain...
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I'm not going to try and correct you here, cos I think you're pretty much right, but it is interesting that the Spitfire did not actually play such a big role in the BofB as many people think. It was the old workhorse Hurricane that did the majority of the fighting. This material-and-sticks aircraft was great to repair, because mechanics could use old sheets and stuff to fix up the holes !! Unlike the Spitfire, which was mostly metal construction.

Hmmm, I'm rambling ... anyway my point was going to be that the hurricane was not superior to the Me109 either in speed or manouverability. So it wasn't just a case of the British aircraft being superior. I won't go into my opinions on what it was that caused England to win this historical battle - since that is the topic of many books and debates, which I'm sure people could find somewhere other than a WC board ! :)
 
Originally posted by Dragon
The Germany army did not have any plans to cross the channel before Dunkerk.
That was because the allies were beaten so fast...
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Another reason was of course the fact that Hitler actually admired the British and wanted them to be an ally - he had no initial plans to fight them/invade them.
 
No, I was because germany was not expecting such a easy and fast victory over the allies, not because of Hittler admiration over England.
The reasons why it was so fast it was because the German Army had better equiment and Allied moral was not that great.(There is too many reasons to start with)
The whole political/military system that was mounted never put the fact the a victory like that was possible.
 
Originally posted by Dragon
No, I was because germany was not expecting such a easy and fast victory over the allies, not because of Hittler admiration over England.
The reasons why it was so fast it was because the German Army had better equiment and Allied moral was not that great.(There is too many reasons to start with)
The whole political/military system that was mounted never put the fact the a victory like that was possible.
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Well actually "yes" ... if you read some of the writings that you can find of Hitler's, you'll see that he did admire the English race since they were of similar Aerian (spelling?) stock to the Germans (I won't go into the irony of Hitler being a short, dark, Austrian). He would have prefered to have had them as allies - he said this himself if you'd care to check the history books.

Sure Blitzkreig was a new type of war, and it stunned even its own users. What has that got to do with my comment about Hitler not wanting to invade England/fight the English?? I wasn't denying the effectiveness of this type of warfare - its a completely seperate issue.

Anyway I'm just waiting for this thread to get closed, since it seems to have lost all hope of getting back onto the original WC topic :)
 
Originally posted by Dragon
O.K.
you asked for it.....

Now RAF did a good job but Luftwaffe was slowly beating RAF to the ground until one bomber acidentally drop a bomb over London.(note that the Day of the Eagle was a major disater but later actions were far more sucesefull)
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Not successfull enough. :) The objective of the Luftwaffe was to eliminate the RAF as a fighting force and give themselves the air superiority to launch Operation Sealion. The RAF's objective was to survive and deny the Germans the air superiority they needed. The RAF achieved its objective, holding the Luftewafee until Hitler accepted that Sealion couldn't be launched before winter, the Luftwaffe didn't. That's despite being outumbered nearly two to one in fighters and three to one in total aircraft, and having much less combat experiance.

Because of that bomber command launch a major strike over Berlin, next Hitler order that London sould became the major target (Luftwaffe was attacking air fields at that time, RAF could not hold the presure for much longer), that give RAF time to rebuild.
Next came the invasion of Russia and the rest is history....
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Well, in warfare, "could have, would have, should have" doesn't matter a damn. The simple fact is that the Luftwaffe blundered by switching targets from airfields to radar stations to factories to cities and back again, while the RAF did what was needed to be done in a desperate situation. Like Churchill said, "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few."

Best, Raptor
 
Originally posted by mpanty
Dragon is totally correct... If Hitler had not been so stubborn in taking it personally over that bombing over Berlin, he would have probably defeated the RAF, and England would be speaking German by now... :)
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Ah, but he was, he didn't, and they aren't, and that's what counts. If we get into "what if" scenarios, we can go in any direction we like. Say if France and England had moved against Hitler when he first remilitarised the Rhine, a lot of what happened later on could have been avoided, but that wasn't to be.

The legendary recruiting and training of pilots, and the air superiority of British fighters (whoops, somebdoy correct me if they think Messerschmitts and Stukas were better than Spitfires and Hurricanes :)) can be seen in the excellent movie, The Battle of Britain...
Click to expand...

Well, the Messerschmitt is debatable, but I doubt anyone would argue that the Spitfire and the Hurricane were better fighters than the Stuka. Also, for those who are interested, more excellent movies are the "The Few" and "Their Finest Hour", as is the BBC series "Finest Hour."

Best, Raptor
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Originally posted by Dragon
The Germany army did not have any plans to cross the channel before Dunkerk.
That was because the allies were beaten so fast...
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Well, if you're incapable of capitalising on your opportunities, then you probably shouldn't set out to conquer an entire continent. :D The simple fact is that by leaving Britain still intact and fighting, the Germans created a two front war for themselves when they moved in on Russia, not to mention giving the US a toehold in Europe when it entered the war. That's certainly one of the major factors in the eventual German defeat.

Best, Raptor
 
Originally posted by Cricket
Yeah, the more I learn about it the Allies beating Hitler it seemes as if it was mostly because of incredibly good luck...

[Edited by Cricket on 03-28-2001 at 19:14]
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Well, that and a lot of bad decisions by the Nazi high command. :D Like they say though, fortune favours the bold. By having the couarge and the determination to hang on, the British gave themselves the chance to not only surive but to win.

Best, Raptor
 
Originally posted by Wedge009
Well, I don't know much about history, but I recall that it was the British who broke the German secret code, was it not?

I probably wouldn't care, except I was born in London, so I feel kinda partial to the Brits. :)
Click to expand...

Me too. :) My origins are totally non-Anglo Saxon (I was born in Sri Lanka) but my admiration for the Brits comes from listening to people in my grandparent's generation, both in Sri Lanka and New Zealand, who fought alongside them. Say what you will about them, they don't roll over for anyone.

Best, Raptor
 
Hmm, that's funny cos my origins are from China, yet most of the Chinese I see in Australia are from Hong Kong. Generally speaking, not a very nice impression! :)
 
Originally posted by Wedge009
Hmm, that's funny cos my origins are from China, yet most of the Chinese I see in Australia are from Hong Kong. Generally speaking, not a very nice impression! :)
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Well, sticking to a contract you signed is hardly rolling over. :) The simple fact is that Hong Kong belonged to China once the lease expired, and there was no justification in International law for retaining control of it afterwards.

Best, Raptor
 
Huh? No, I was just comparing your admiration for the British to my lack of admiration for the Chinese, at least people from Hong Kong in general. (Yes, I have met nice Hong Kong people)
 
Oh, sorry. I though you meant that the British giving up Hong Kong was an example of rolling over. :) My apologies.

Best, Raptor

[Edited by Raptor on 03-29-2001 at 02:38]
 
Well, we also give up Macau...
The stuka was a dive bomber, It worked well in suporting army units but in the Battle of England it was just a easy prey.
The BF109 was a good solid plane but the Spitfire was superior in some fields (but the main fighter of RAF at the start was the Hurricane that was inferior to the BF109), until the FW190 show up.
Hittler was the cause of many Germany mistakes during the war, the invasion of russia was the biggest of all (it was stupid, if he wanted to do that, he sould have waited for england to be finnished).


[Edited by Dragon on 03-29-2001 at 06:35]
 
Woo, long post, brace yourselves... ;)

Dragon says:
Yes Whitehall crack the egnima machine codes, only the subs egnima escaped that since a fourth wheel was added for extra security, until a US crewman got one from a U-boat, something that he paid with his life.
Click to expand...
I always find it very annoying how the Polish intelligence service is always forgotten when it comes to the Enigma. We got the British the damned machine in the first place, IIRC.

BW_Dave says:
Well actually "yes" ... if you read some of the writings that you can find of Hitler's, you'll see that he did admire the English race since they were of similar Aerian (spelling?) stock to the Germans (I won't go into the irony of Hitler being a short, dark, Austrian).
Click to expand...
I always thought the real irony is that Hitler would have in fact looked more like an Aryan than did any of his blond, blue-eyed boys. You want to see a real Aryan? Go to India - or indeed, go to Aryan... er, that is, Iran.

Raptor says:
The RAF achieved its objective, holding the Luftwaffe until Hitler accepted that Sealion couldn't be launched before winter, the Luftwaffe didn't. That's despite being outumbered nearly two to one in fighters and three to one in total aircraft, and having much less combat experiance.
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Much less combat experience? The RAF had a lot of experienced pilots. I don't want to sound too much like some sort of crazy nationalist here, but the Polish, once again, came to your rescue :-). Some of your highest-scoring squadrons consisted of Polish pilots that made their way to England after having fought against the Luftwaffe in September.

Raptor says:
Well, sticking to a contract you signed is hardly rolling over. The simple fact is that Hong Kong belonged to China once the lease expired, and there was no justification in International law for retaining control of it afterwards.
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Never was any justification in the first place, but never mind that... ;)

Dragon says:
Well, we also give up Macau...
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I was there when that happened :-).
 
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