Obsolete ships

Earthworm

Spaceman
Originally posted by Napoleon
If you choose to go to circie and don't use the FP on ella there is an ending where Blair is an instructer and the Intrepid appears to be a training ship, this is considered the "right" ending.
Actually, both winning endings could be considered right...
 

Dragon

Spaceman
actualy, no.
since Blair is a comodore and in that movie he is a admiral.(Hank says "good night Admiral")
Blair also transfers from the BW to confed after some time, not right after the end of WC IV, it will take some time.
 

Earthworm

Spaceman
No, it really is....
First, Commodore is a low ranking Admiral, second, we don't know how much time has passed between the end of the game and that ending, and we don't know how much time Blair spent with the BW.

Oh, and BTW. During the instructor ending Blair IS in Confed, not BW.

[Edited by Earthworm on 01-29-2001 at 00:19]
 

Supdon3

Kal-El
Plus Bliar kinda joined the BW rather quickly, not like he went through a bunch of red tape, so why wouldnt he be able to go right back to ConFed.
 

Chameleon102

Spaceman
Blair didn't have to wade through red tape because he defected, taking life along the way. Now, although Hippie, Hazard, Quality and the other unnamed Lexington pilots were sacrificed that had to be made in order to save millions, possibly billions of lives, it has to be said that Blair didn#t offer them the chance to go with them, or even express regret at shooting down the people he would have been flying with the previous day.

While the overall correct choice, what Blair did WAS a war crime, and if he hadn't have stopped something with such tremendous impact as Tolwyn's plan, then he would have been sentenced to death for even contemplating setting foot inside Confed space again, unless in a BW victory parade*. This is clearly shown if you

a) Eject in the vicinity of the Lexington
b) Eject in a Confed heavy situation
c) Eject in Peleus
d) Fail to convince the Assembly of Tolwyn's guilt

* : BL wouldn't have won anyway. Confed would have kicked thier arses.
 

Nemesis

Spaceman
Yes, I'm late . . . mea culpa.

Originally posted by Quarto:
The Gladius was used only by InSystem Security (aka the Militia), which would appear to be a semi-independent branch of the Confed Navy.

It does seem that the terms "Insys" and "Militia" are used interchangeably in "Privateer", but we know that the "Militia" (as well as "Insys" if it is indeed only a generic reference) is not the same as the Navy’s "Insystem Security" to which Tolwyn transfers Blair following the destruction of the Claw. In Origin’s guidebook for "Privateer", we are told that "Militia forces are local mercenaries hired by individual planets for security purposes".

The "Militia" is thus a collection of localized forces that appear beholden only to their respective employers. I suppose there could still be some overarching administrative role played by the Insys proper or another agency, but who knows . . . the degree to which Gemini has a centralized government in 2669 (let alone the extent to which the Sector is a part of the Confederation) is ambiguous at best. Still, we do know there is an "Intersys" that investigates crimes like murder committed "on base", and from its name that does sound like a centralized authority.
 

RFBurns

Spaceman
Ships & Chips

Ahh, all these posts about the classic ships! Im in junkyard heaven! :) Has anyone converted some or all of these ships to the newer games? Someone posted a link in one of the threads but it got lost in buried posts! Im particularly interested in seeing the ol Centurion ship!

RFBurns

"Hey flyboy, guess who's in deep trouble, Mr. Lynch wants that artifact!" [quote, Miggs, Privateer]
 

AzraeL

Spaceman
Where were we again? Obsolete ships or something like that.

In war time, everything has a much shorter lifespan/recycle time then in times of peace. Fighters are mass produced, but are quickly superceded by improved or new models. Everything is driven by the need to have the best technology available. An exceptional design (e.g. the WW2 Spitfire) might have a lifespan of several years, although it would have many variants over that span (I seem to recall the Spitfire had at least 15+ variants by the time it ceased post-war production).

In peacetime, things are very different. Production is much lower (ships die of old age rather than being shot down) and there is no strong impetus for new designs. (I'm Australian, and the F-111's we have in active service are older then I am).

The Excalibur probably falls into a similar category to the WW2 Spitfire. An excellent fighter just coming into production at the end of the war, it will be the frontline fighter for several years to come. It's going to see several varients before it finally goes out of service - the Excal you see in WCP is likely to be several significant steps above the prototype Blair steals (or can steal) in WC3. Much better shields, improvements to weapons, engines etc. In WC4 I seem to recall they moved into the stealth fighter role. There are still limits to how far you can push the basic model, however, so they aren't going to be as good as the more modern fighters found on the Midway. As they get older, they will most likely be passed on to Reserve squadrons and militias.

The ships in WCP are all purpose built for specialist jobs, which mostly involve keeping the peace. Gone are the days of fighters having to serve multiple purposes. Their designs reflect peactime concepts. The Shrike is a good example of this. It is a purpose-built light bomber - not a fighter bomber, but a light bomber. It's purpose is to torpedo enemy capital ships, probably ageing Pirate or renegate Kilrathi corvettes. It doesn't need any serious fighter capability because it is going to be accompanied by purpose-built space superiority fighters from a fully operational carrier group.

As for the Dragons/Lances ...
A limited number of Dragons were built in secret for the Black Lance. They have only one serious advantage over a conventional fighter - range. Their matter/anti-matter reactors give them virtually unlimited flight and fight time. Other fighters can cloak. Other fighters can carry plasma cannon and flash-paks. They have one serious disadvantage over a conventional fighter - cost. The cost of a single Dragon, relative to a standard fighter is prohibitive.

I believe this is the single governing factor over the existence of Dragons (or similar vessels) in WCP times. I don't think public feeling regarding their association with the gen-select will have anything to do with it, it all comes down to economics. Dragons will not be used if a conventional fighter can do the job at a fraction of the cost. That is not to say they don't exist, it just means that their usage will be extremely limited. The advantage of their range and the importance of the mission must outway the risk of their loss. This means they won't be used in carrier groups, or in combat missions where they might be lost. Better to lose half a dozen Vampires if they run out of burner fuel then a single Dragon (although if a pilot survives combat long enough to run out of burner fuel he's either a briliant pilot or a D!ckhead who doesn't know how to fly properly). So their use will probably be limited to Secret Ops that take advantage of their range, e.g. long range spy missions etc.

As for selling Dragons to privateers, well, two reasons against this.
1. Never sell someone something that can be used against you (who was the guy who sold Talons to the Retros?)
2. Cost. Hell, if Confed can't afford these things, it's a pretty rich privateer that can.

Not that the privateers aren't going to buy something similar (albeit nowhere near as good, you would imagine). The similarites between the Dragon and the Centurion are obvious. However, what is going to be available on the mercenary market is going to be a commercial model with a fraction of the cost and (proabaly) a fraction of the ability. So I would hesitate to call it a Dragon.
 

papachulo10

Spaceman
Back here in the states nothing much is new. Well the F-111 are almost gone i admit, but hey did you know that they were going to have the F-14's job? SO we've had them longer. We have the F-15E which is a great attack plane. We've retired the A-6's and they been around since the NAM. For some odd reason i don't like the new generation of ships. THe hellcats, arrows, ranger class carriers, vesuvius's. Those were the good old times. Hell i still wish tolwyn was around. And the war still echoes in my mind. Confed had a common enemy now....The bugs present a threat but nothing like the Kilrathi had over us.

Tolwyn:"Now we cast about uncertain."
 

Earthworm

Spaceman
Originally posted by AzraeL
the Excal you see in WCP is likely to be several significant steps above the prototype Blair steals (or can steal) in WC3.
There's no Excals in Prophecy (well, actually there are in the manual...). The SO Excal isn't much better than the original as you seem to thing.
Max speed is 650 kps (note that that's the speed with all power transfered to engines)
AB speed is the same
Y/P/R all 70 dps
Armor: the same 110 cm as before
Shields: at 300 cm equivelant, so improved by 50 cm, but that won't make up for the weak armor.
And the guns are the same as the ones we see in WC4 (two Ions, and four Tachyons
Missiles, same as WC4, four missiles.
And 36 decyos wich is an improvement.

The SO T-bolt wasn't upgraded much either.

Dragons will not be used if a conventional fighter can do the job at a fraction of the cost.
Not only will it be a fraction of the cost, a ship like a Vampire is better than the Lance. And they Vamps can carry light torpedos.
 

Earthworm

Spaceman
Originally posted by papachulo10
THe hellcats, arrows, ranger class carriers, vesuvius's. Those were the good old times.
Actually, all things considered, the Vesuvius class is pretty much a new generation ship, at least when compared to the other ships you mentioned, especially the Ranger class.:)
Confed had a common enemy now....The bugs present a threat but nothing like the Kilrathi had over us.
The bugs are actually more dangerous than the Kilrathi.
 

papachulo10

Spaceman
Yeah the Vesuveii are new but their design doesn't differ that much compared to the rangers espcially compared to the midways.
 

Napoleon

Spaceman
The Vesuvii can be considered the last of the "War era" ships because even though they are not made during the war, their designes still reflect the principals before the war.
 

Dragon

Spaceman
Originally posted by Earthworm
[BNot only will it be a fraction of the cost, a ship like a Vampire is better than the Lance. And they Vamps can carry light torpedos.

[/B]

Well, the Vampire does not have the range of the Dragon, since Dragons have a anti-matter Reactor they have quite a long range, and nobody truly knows what happened to the Dragon fighter.
P.S. dont shoot mumbers at me again, I remeber all that but remember as well that we dont know what happened betewn the End of WC IV and the start of WC P. the fate of the Dragon Class Heavy Fighter is still a mystery.
And also stop calling the Dragon a Lance, Its start be confusing.
 

Napoleon

Spaceman
I agree Dragon with it all, but while the Vampire might have better firepower in its main guns don't discount the Fission cannons those things kick some serious A** I just used those only throughout my entire tenure as a dragon pilot.
 

Earthworm

Spaceman
Originally posted by Dragon
and nobody truly knows what happened to the Dragon fighter.
Just don't go saying that Confed went out and upgraded it...
I remeber all that but remember as well that we dont know what happened betewn the End of WC IV and the start of WC P. the fate of the Dragon Class Heavy Fighter is still a mystery.
So the Lance can be upgraded, so what? You can upgrade the Vampire too, and it'll still be cheaper than a Lance.
And also stop calling the Dragon a Lance, Its start be confusing.
You stop calling the Lance a Dragon...:)

Napoleon, yes, the Fission guns are powerfull, but not being able to fire them along with the other guns is a disadvantage. While the Fission themselves can be more powerfull than any of the guns the Vamp carries, 2 Fissions are not stronger than 4 Tachyons and 2 Particles combined.
 

WildWeasel

Spaceman
Originally posted by Quarto
Finally, WC1 gives us the pricetag of a standard Confed fighter - over 100,000,000 credits. That doesn't quite compare to a Centurion's 300,000.

I haven't played Privateer in a while, but isn't the cost of your current ship part of the deal? Even if it was, that still doesn't come close to closing the price gap between the two.

It could be possible that the Gemini Sector (due to the large amount of independent activity) has developed it's own currency or a variation of the Confederation's monetary system. Things could simply be more expensive there, but that seems unlikely. The time difference between Wing Commander I and Privateer could also have something to do with this. The fact that one is a standard Confederation fighter and that the other is only a civilian craft is the most likely answer.

[Edited by WildWeasel on 01-30-2001 at 00:06]
 

Dragon

Spaceman
Did I say they upgraded the Dragon (maybe I start saying that the dragon is the butterfly but that would be confusing), no. and neither can you say the the Dragons dont exist anymore because the Confed just like to have the wonderbra figther better.
And will ConFed put the most expensive engine in history on the Vampire (that is the anti-matter engine) just because there is now the Vampire? ofcouse not, it would be far easier to upgrade a Dragon (I sayed, so what) that to remake the Vampire (the engine on a vampire is quite diferent in the way its locaded that the engine on the Dragon is, the vampire would have to be remade to acomodade a engine that size besides several problems that would occur with the vampire performance since that would be now a brand new ship)
And if would be a MK II Dragon around, we dont know what weapons it would have, perhaps stronger that the Vampire.

And nice way to avoid the question, I see that you agree with the Dragon have a better range that the Vampire, since you dont refute that statement....
 

Earthworm

Spaceman
Originally posted by Dragon
Did I say they upgraded the Dragon
No you didn't, but that's what your message would be sugesting... Otherwise, the Lance wouldn't be better than the Vampire. By saying that we don't know what could have happened to the Lance, you're sugesting that it was upgraded.

and neither can you say the the Dragons dont exist anymore because the Confed just like to have the wonderbra figther better.
And maybe you'll notice that I didn't say the Lance doesn't exist in that post...

And will ConFed put the most expensive engine in history on the Vampire just because there is now the Vampire? ofcouse not, it would be far easier to upgrade a Dragon that to remake the Vampire
That makes no sense... Why would you want to give the Vamp a matter/antimatter power plant anyway? Yeah, it gives the ship longer range, but the Project needed the longer range since they didn't have the luxury of having that many bases and capships, so they're fighters had to have very long range.
And if would be a MK II Dragon around, we dont know what weapons it would have, perhaps stronger that the Vampire.
If you can put stronger guns on a Lance, than you can put stronger guns on a Vampire (same goes for missiles BTW)

And nice way to avoid the question, I see that you agree with the Dragon have a better range that the Vampire, since you dont refute that statement....
Eh, what question...? Yes, the Lance does have better range... But like I said above, Confed doesn't need fighters with a super-long range, the Project did....
 

RFBurns

Spaceman
fuel vs matter/anti matter, is there reason to even question it.

Lets face it, any ship, be it old or new, would benefit from the matter/anti-matter reactors. The puzzling thing about it all is that the WC universe had this type of ship in Privateer. In fact all the ships (Tarsus/Galaxy/Orion)had the power plant which didnt need afterburner fuel. The power plants also provided more gun energy as well as shield energy in reserve if needed. This thing about not flying correctly and burning up afterburner fuel is rediculous. I dont think any real world fighter pilot is concerned about what his flying style is when hes able to effectivly out manuver his target and stick to the six. If the flying style is effective, then more power to that pilot. Its unique. It works. Why change something that works? And any pilot will tell you, speed is life! The faster you can go and sustain that speed, you will live! Speed to attack, speed to break away and re-group, speed to run, yes run. Even the best pilots tuck tail and run once in a while to re gather his tactics, plus to give him a better position to respond. All in all, if there was regenerative power in some older ships of the WC universe, some of that should still be around. Perhaps, if there is ever a new WC game, some of that technology will be there. Wouldnt it be an embarassment if your in a ship that runs out of afterburner fuel, and then to see an older ship whisk by you that doesnt have to worry about that? I can imagine seeing a Vampire speeding along, then run out of fuel while a Centurion or Dragon whips right past him and keeps going! That would be a race to see! :)

RFBurns

"Fight you furless freak!" [Kilrathi, WCP]
 
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