Now this is how you design a supercarrier.

TC

SubCrid
Originally posted by Concordia
Not in WC!

There are carriers which fit this profile (most of them), but there are some which are quite autonomous, and others which are totally, such as the Midway-Class.
The Midway-Class isn't supposed to act independantly during hostilites. It's supposed to form the center of a battle group. A better example would be the Bengal class, which *is* supposed to work independantly. It, however, isn't a standard carrier, and is armed to the teeth.

It's stupid to design a carrier with no means to defend itself against capital ships. Most of carriers weapons are to fight off just fighters. The Vesuvius got it right... It had the power of an entire battlegroup focused in one ship.
That's blatant hyperbole though. It has the power of a battlegroup in it's fighters alone. It still needs escorts to protect it. The one ship we've seen it take on properly with it's own guns was another ship of the same class, which doesn't really tell you anything.

My design is supposed to be able to do the following

1.) Fight like the Vesuvius
The Vesuvius class' main weapon is it's fighters, like any carrier...

2.) Run independantly like the Midway
As mentioned before, it's not supposed to, as it's stupid to put your most expensive and important assets out where they're more likely to get damaged.

[snip...]
5.) Carry LOTS and LOTS of anti-capship guns like Vesuvius
The Vesuvius doesn't carry an exessive number or strength of anti-capital ship guns...

6.) Be really fast, like Vesuvius, except better
The Vesuvius is incredibly slow, except when compared to carriers. All of Confed's military, non-carrier capital ships in Secret Ops can out run her.

[snip...]
11.) Have anti-torpedo defenses like the Hakaga.
I like many of Confed's anti-torpedo defenses :(

[snip...]
15.) Be resistant to flash-pack attacks.
Flash pack's really don't seem to be a huge issue tactically... either way, the current Confed armour is probably similar to that on the original Vesuvius.

I am basically conceptualizing a super-carrier which does not have all the flaws that other carriers have. I am basically righting the wrongs of carrier design.
You realize how stupidly expensive, and in some cases probably impossible, this would be to accomplish, realistically? An important part of any design is to look at benifits in relation to cost (in all forms, including man-power and deaths) and see what's going to work better. It's stupid to spend money making and designing engines that power huge ships at high accelerations if one doesn't need to, for example. In some cases it's just impossible due to problems with materials. Every time you up the armour, you have to up the thrust or lower the speed. You end up needing to make trade-offs to make things work and to make prices somewhat reasonable.

Carriers should have good defenses, but I say, give them some offensive weapons too. The Confederation-Class design got it right. It was basically a giant cruiser with 2 flight-decks strapped on. In fact it was originally listed as a Supercruiser (in Origin's development notes for WC2).
I was unaware of the Confederation Class being listed as a Supercruiser... are you sure you aren't confused with the Concordia class SuperCruiser in the movie? A better note would be that the Confederation Class is not a carrier class, but rather a dreadnaught class.

To continue on, it's stupid to have your most expensive ships fighting toe to toe with other ships if they don't need to. If they're destroyed you lose an expensive, hard to replace asset, and you can't recover the fighters that were flying off of it, the pilots of which are another rather limited asset.
 

Aries

Vice Admiral
here's how you design a carrier

give it a large fighter capacity, as fighters are the carrier's weapons
make it fast, so it can run from threats
give it a lot of point defenses, so it can kill any fighters/torpedos that get past it's fighters

when you have said carrier, give it a decent battle group so the cruisers and destroyers can kill anything the fighters can't handle.

adding anything else just sucks up more money, which would limit the number of carriers which could be built. you can have the most invincible carrier in the galexy, but it can only be in one place at a time. get a lot of less capable carriers (but which could still get the job done) and they can be in many places at one time.
 

Slawter

Spaceman
Air power is everything for a carrier. Your idea, Aries, was what i liked most. It is everything a carrier is suposed to be: A platform that launches it's fighter, can defend from fighters and torpedos but have problems with capships. Here is my model:

Polyarnyy-class

Type: Hypercarrier(CVH)
Manufacturer: CLASSIFIED
Length: 3500 meters
Mass: CLASSIFIED
Jump Drive: Standard(Can use any kind of jump point)

Crew:(4,000) Crewmembers
(1,000) Marine Unit

Speed: 160 kps(No Afterburner)
Acceleration: 45kps^2
Yaw/Pitch/Roll: 5/5/7 dps
Rotational acc: 5

Weapons:
Energy:
(4x4) Anti-fighter laser turret
(4x8)Anti-missile laser(a lot of weak, smaller lasers just to take down missiles and torps, as they don't cause significant damage against fighters)
Solid:
(4x6) AA Missile turrets

Air Wings:
(9x80) Fighter Wing
Fighters:
-F/A-105 Tigershark
-F-104 Bearcat
-Thunderrbolt VII HF-66
-F-109 Vampire
-F-110A Wasp
Bombers:
-TB80A Devastator
-TB81A Shrike
Utility Craft:
-Various

Status:
-CVH-1 Polyarnyy(Named after my Bravo Fleet ship and the russian shipyards)
Captain: Fleet Admiral Marco Almada(Hey, it's me!)
First Officer: Rear Admiral Caio Donini(A friend)
CMC: Master Chief Petty Officer Marcyn Szydlowski(The EHTAC :p)

-CVH-2 Pegasus(Named after the Bravo Fleet USS Pegasus, commanded by my helper Mike Bremer)
Captain: Admiral Mike Bremer
First Officer: Commodore Jarod Parker(Another Friend)

-CVH-03 Los Angeles
-CVH-04 Manaus
-CVH-04 São Paulo
-CVH-05 São José dos Campos(A.k.a S. Jose)



I will send my plans for a TRUE line carrier soon.
 

Slawter

Spaceman
Forgot some things.

Shields:
Phase Shields
Armor:
Turrets: 900cm
Rear: 1800cm
Front: 1800cm
Left: 1500cm
Right: 1500cm
 

Concordia

Swabbie
Banned
Lemme explain what I'm going for...

I'm going for a carrier that's like part Vesuvius, Midway, Hakaga, and Bengal, all in one.

It should have the following

-Large fighter capacity: Carrier's primary weapons are fighters
-High top-speed: Able to run from threats
-Lots of point-defenses: Makes carrier able to destroy fighters/torpedoes/missiles that get past her fighters
-Lots of large main-guns: Makes carrier able to engage and destroy fighers/small capships/large capships that happen to get by her fighters.
-Torpedoes: To help destroy capital ships, should said carrier's fighters not be able to fend them off.
-Heavy shields: To protect the ship from most weaponry
-Heavy armor: To protect the ship from shield-penetrating weapons, and as a last-line of defense should force-fields fail.

It could serve as the core of a battle-group (so can the Bengal), but I want it to be able to fight on it's own. It's the military's largest asset, it should be able to fight on her own should it's escorts be destroyed.

-Concordia
 

Haesslich

Spaceman
Originally posted by Concordia
Lemme explain what I'm going for...

I'm going for a carrier that's like part Vesuvius, Midway, Hakaga, and Bengal, all in one.

It should have the following

-Large fighter capacity: Carrier's primary weapons are fighters
-High top-speed: Able to run from threats
The Bengal-class Strike Carrier was fast for a carrier, but this doesn't mean that she's able to 'fight on her own' too effectively, or at least not for very long. Remember how torn up she got in Custer's Carnival...

-Lots of point-defenses: Makes carrier able to destroy fighters/torpedoes/missiles that get past her fighters
-Lots of large main-guns: Makes carrier able to engage and destroy fighers/small capships/large capships that happen to get by her fighters.


Um... lots of large main guns? Getting that close means that she'll take damage, which is NOT good if you intend to run. Remember, you're carrying quite a bit of mass in fighters and support equipment, which means you have to give it up somewhere... like armor, engines, or weapons. Besides, it's a waste of money to do this, when you could put out more well-armed destroyers to escort her... or more expendable craft like corvettes and frigates.

-Torpedoes: To help destroy capital ships, should said carrier's fighters not be able to fend them off.


If you get THIS close to an enemy destroyer, you're dead. :D Even going against another carrier would be an issue if you put torps on a carrier. They're not meant to get in close and mix it up with the other big ships; they're too expensive. You instead let the little fighters do the job, or your smaller escorts. Cruisers, destroyers, frigates, corvettes... they're meant for anti-capship work. Your carrier's meant to be more of a base for her single-pilot craft.

Basically, a carrier's usually too big, bulky, and unmaneuverable compared to a smaller and lighter ship (which doesn't have to carry all the support equipment and crews for fighters), which is also probably cheaper to produce.

It's either that or you give up fighter capacity... which means your carrier loses a lot of teeth. Or armor...

-Heavy shields: To protect the ship from most weaponry
-Heavy armor: To protect the ship from shield-penetrating weapons, and as a last-line of defense should force-fields fail.
This means you've added a LOT of mass, which in turn means bigger engines... or else you sacrifice that 'great speed' you've got. These aren't free upgrades, y'know. They're expensive - look at the fact that in WC4, it was mentioned that these SuperCarriers of Tolwyn's (Vesuvius Class) were quite expensive, and as a result, the economy of a lot of worlds were suffering because money intended for other things was diverted to building them (or at least this is mentioned in the novel, IIRC).


It could serve as the core of a battle-group (so can the Bengal), but I want it to be able to fight on it's own. It's the military's largest asset, it should be able to fight on her own should it's escorts be destroyed.

-Concordia
'Fighting on her own' usually isn't worth it - one ship can only do so much against a destroyer group. Even if you're extremely fast, carrying all that mass in armor and fighters means that you're giving up maneuverability (they don't have inertialess drives here, IIRC), so you're vulnerable to a destroyer group. Which was, probably, a lot cheaper to make than your big-ass carrier.

So while you're going after one target, and your fighters are going after another three or four, one of those ships is likely to shove a spread of torpedos up your ass (or maybe two or three of them), thus crippling or destroying your extremely expensive toy for the much cheaper cost of a few destroyers.

And also leaving your fighters stranded. Oops.

You're trying to build a Super Star Destroyer in WC terms here... and as I recall, those things could be destroyed by a MUCH cheaper group of more conventional ships, though the other group would suffer quite a few losses in the process. Money's still an issue, which is why the Midway was built, to replace older carriers by providing equivalent capacity in a single package, and which had more functionality.

Remember; all of the classes of ships you've listed above (Vesuvius, Bengal, Hakaga, and the Midway in losing paths) were destroyed by either fighters or smaller capships, which were generally cheaper than the carriers they were killing. Even the Vesuvius had issues, since you could (in theory) destroy it with torps and dumbfires from the inside even without a FlashPak...
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Originally posted by Concordia
I'm going for a carrier that's like part Vesuvius, Midway, Hakaga, and Bengal, all in one.
You've made that clear enough. The only thing I don't understand is why you would want to. It's not an especially fun theoretical exercise, since you essentially just try to come up with the best-sounding stats and numbers, and it's not the least bit practical, since ships in games, whether hostile or friendly, need flaws.
 

Concordia

Swabbie
Banned
DESIGNATION
Enterprise-Class

Length
~2,100 meters

Mass
270,000-350,000 metric tonnes

Max Velocity

Ramscoops Open = Full
270 + kps

Ramscoops Open = 50%
650 kps more or less
Ramscoops Open = 35%
1,507 kps
Ramscoops Open = 22%
3620 kps
Ramscoops Open = 15%
5,700 kps
Ramscoops Open = 10%
8,900 kps
Ramscoops Open = 5%
14,000 kps
Ramscoops = CLOSED
Until fuel runs out.


Cruise Velocity
Ramscoops Open = Full
190 kps +
Ramscoops Open = 50%
420 kps
Ramscoops Open = 35%
972 kps
Ramscoops Open = 22%
2,305 kps
Ramscoops Open = 15%
3,677 kps
Ramscoops Open = 10%
5,705 kps (5,705.12821 kps to be exact)
Ramscoops Open = 5%
8,940 kps
Ramscoops = CLOSED
Until fuel runs out

Acceleration
43 k/s²

Max. Y/P/R
15/25/25 dps * (See Note 1)

Guns

Main
PTC
(2) * (See Note 2)
AMG
(21) Triple-Turreted
Heavy Tachyon
(16) Quad-Turreted
Heavy Photon
(24) Quad-Turreted

Point-Defense
Laser Turret
(62) twin-turret
-Forward Dorsal Starboard (3)
-Foward Dorsal Port (3)
-Forward Ventral Starboard (3)
-Forward Ventral Port (3)
-Aft Dorsal Starboard (4)
-Aft Dorsal Port (4)
-Aft Ventral Starboard (4)
-Aft Ventral Port (4)
-Dorsal (4)
-Ventral (4)
-Starboard Flank (4)
-Port Flank (4)
-Diagonal Starboard Bow (2)
-Diagonal Starboard Rear (3)
-Diagonal Port Bow (2)
-Diagonal Port Rear (3)
-Diagonal Dorsal Bow (2)
-Diagonal Ventral Bow (2)
-Diagonal Dorsal Stern (2)
-Diagonal Ventral Stern (2)
-Dorsal Conning Tower (2)
-Ventral Conning Tower (2)

Missiles

Main
CSM
(5) 3 fore, 2 aft
Torpedo Tubes
(26)
- Forward Torpedo Tubes (6)
- Diagonal Forward Tubes (8) * (see Note III)
(They angle out 45 degrees left, right, and all angle forward at 45 degrees - two left up, two left down, two starboard up, two starboard down)
- Aft Torpedo Tubes (4)
- Diagonal Aft Tubes (8)
Missile-Launcher
(10) Turret(s)

Point-Defense
Gatling-Launch Tubes
(6)


Shields

Main * (see Note IV)
Fore/Aft
Phase
Dorsal/Ventral
Phase
Port/Starboard
Phase

Systems
Engines * (See Note V)
Phase
Bridge * (See Note VI)
Phase
Hangar Bay *(See Note VI)
Phase
Fighter Launchers * (See Note VII)
Phase
Outer Turret * (see Note VIII)
Phase
Inner Turret 3,000 cm * (see Note IX)

Armor

Main
Dorsal/Ventral
4,300 cm
Fore/Aft
4,300 cm
Port/Starboard
4,300 cm

System
Engine
4,500 cm /4,300 cm * (see Note X)
(Nozzle/Blast Door)
Bridge
4,500 cm
Hangar Bay * (see Note XI)
4,300 cm
Fighter Launcher
4,300 cm
AMG
2,400 cm
Heavy Tachyon
1,600 cm
Heavy Photon
1,200 cm
Missile Launchers
945 cm
Point Defense
350 cm


Crew
7,300 - 7,800 Standard

Fleet
(no clue)
Officers
(what's the ratio of officers to enlisted on a carrier?)
Enlisted
(no idea)

Air-Wing
4,300
Officers
(No idea)
Enlisted
(No idea)

Marine
600 Peacetime
6,000 Wartime
(does the midway really carry this much?)

Officers
(No idea)
Enlisted
(No idea)


Fighter Compliment
430

Shuttle Compliment
41 (standard is 40-41-- there is provision for up to 43 however)
Conventional
11
Marine LC
32 (maximum, standard provision is for 29)


Jump Drive
Midway-Type



------------------------
NOTES
1.) The ship is capable of maneuvering at these YPR ratings. Turns will be crisp at these speeds with ramscoops open... If ramscoops are closed, say 50 percent, the ship will only be able to move 7.5/12.5/25 (roll is unaffected, if anything, it would be slightly improved)-- half it's normal pitch and yaw rates because beyond that, the ship would skid. At higher speeds, G-loads would be so hard they'd damage the ship and splatter everyone on board. In otherwords, not recommended :eek:

2.) The Enterprise-Class is fitted with a modified Phase-Transit Cannon. Previous PTC cannons were volatile and had continual problems with them. This design is far more stable and does not possess such problems.

3.) Diagonal Torpedo Tube arrangement was set up to enable multiple axes to be covered without having to use so many torpedo tubes. One torpedo can fire sideways, or upwards. Torpedos can be given laser-lock communication commands, or pre-programmed to turn to a given heading after launch.

4.) There are two sets of shields and armor on the Enterprise Class...
-Main: This is the standard shield and armor ratings
-Systems: Covers individual systems

5.) Engines: Engines have shielding on them to protect them from a torpedo impact...

6.) Bridge: I think you all know this, but I'm referring to the Conning Tower. As many of you are aware, the Captain is not usually on the bridge during GQ or Battle-stations. He/She is in the CIC with the Battle-Group Commander

7.) Hangar Bay: That's the flight-decks. There are two on the Enterprise-Class, one starboard, and one port. They are fly-through type hangars. Shields cover the hangars when they are not being used, and are only disengaged when receiving fighters.

8.) Fighter Launch Tubes: Like the Midway, the Enterprise-Class possesses launch tubes. They can accomodate even a Broadsword. There are 4-tubes on this class of ship.

9.) Outer Turret: There is a phase-shield which covers the turrets when they are not firing. This is to protect them from damage which might occur otherwise.

10.) Inner Turret: A non-phase shield which covers the turrets WHILE they are firing. These only cover energy-weapons (AMG's, and Heavy-Photon Guns) which can be modulated to bypass the shield of the firing ship.

11.) Engine Armor: Two readings are given. The nozzle and main engine area, which is 4,500 cm, and the blast doors... There are three blast doors, which can be erected in front of the engines once the engines have been shut down. The doors armor ratings individually are 1,400 cm (outer door), 1,400 cm (middle door), and 1,500 cm (inner door). All doors can be blown free by explosive charge should they jam.

12.) Hangar Bay: Each hangar bay has 3 sets of doors which cover the flight deck. Their protection is the same as the engine arrangement. They can cover the entry and exits to the flight-deck. The doors can be raised up in 3 seconds. In an emergency, the doors can be blown free.

13.) The Fighter-Launch Tubes also have a door to cover the exits of the tube... this is to prevent anything from getting in.

14.) Point-defense turrets are roughly the same size as those used on fighters. They're slightly larger because they have heavier armor and are twin-turreted.

FINAL NOTE: You probably wonder why I've listed all those speeds (for it's top speed, and cruise speed). Here's why.

WC ships travel extremely slow, but that's only when they're in combat, conserving fuel, or refuelling. When transiting across a system, they do it with their ramscoops-closed. They travel faster. It's not ramscoops open or closed either, there are variations-- at least on capships; Jason Bondarevsky gave the order for ramscoops to be 5 percent open when dashing. I used the 0-5-10-15-22-35-50 settings based on the flap-settings of a DC-10! Speed up, retract the flaps, then retract the slats. As you slow down, extend the slats, then the flaps. Except in this case it's "speed up, close the scoops/slow down, open the scoops". If you're at 5 percent R/S (ramscoops) open and moving at whatever the top speed for that is, the ship will be taking in as much fuel as it would as if it was moving at whatever the top speed is R/S full-open.

-Concordia
"That's all Leftenant"
 

Haesslich

Spaceman
Originally posted by Quarto
You've made that clear enough. The only thing I don't understand is why you would want to. It's not an especially fun theoretical exercise, since you essentially just try to come up with the best-sounding stats and numbers, and it's not the least bit practical, since ships in games, whether hostile or friendly, need flaws.
He's not going to listen to the practical objections involving money or realism... since the stats he posted are those of a Death Star, not a ship. A bloody battlestation, not a warship.

Probably would take selling all of ConFleet and then some to make the bugger too. Then the Nephilim could just send in a Kraken to blow the bugger up, and we'd all be screwed. :D
 

Concordia

Swabbie
Banned
Originally posted by Haesslich
He's not going to listen to the practical objections involving money or realism... since the stats he posted are those of a Death Star, not a ship. A bloody battlestation, not a warship.

Probably would take selling all of ConFleet and then some to make the bugger too. Then the Nephilim could just send in a Kraken to blow the bugger up, and we'd all be screwed. :D
First off, I'm a she, not a he.

Second...

The ship is NOT a death-star. The point-defenses are a bit extreme, but with the exception of the gatling-launch tubes, point-defenses are NOT counted.

So imagine 21 AMG's, 16 Heavy Tachyons, and 24 Heavy Photon Guns, as a main gun armament. For a 2,100 meter long ship, that is a bit heavy... but possible.

Third,

The heavy torpedo defenses may seem extreme, but remember, the WCM Concordia had 50 torpedo-tubes. This ship "only" has 26.

Fourth,

This whole thing is mostly just a "how a carrier SHOULD have been designed", not an actual proposal for a super-carrier.

-Concordia
"That's all Leftenant!"
 

Haesslich

Spaceman
Originally posted by Concordia
First off, I'm a she, not a he.
That ship's gun compliment would give a male porn star penis envy. I apologize for the mistake about the gender, but the sheer number of guns would be overcompensation if proposed in another context.

Second...

The ship is NOT a death-star. The point-defenses are a bit extreme, but with the exception of the gatling-launch tubes, point-defenses are NOT counted.

So imagine 21 AMG's, 16 Heavy Tachyons, and 24 Heavy Photon Guns, as a main gun armament. For a 2,100 meter long ship, that is a bit heavy... but possible.
With how many reactors are you powering this, not counting the 5 CSMs, 26 torpedo tubes, and the rest? Shields, engines, etc? This is a bloody monster of a ship, closer to a stationary defense complex in its weapon compliment (I'm thinking Ella Superbase) than a mobile craft meant to be fast enough to take 430 fighters to any point in Confed space. 62 dual laser turrets, 21 AMGs, 16 QUAD heavy tachyons, 24 quad heavy photos, phase shields, engines capable of 170 kps in combat maneuver speed, life support for almost 8000 crew, the YPR of a shuttle... this requires a LOT of power. Especially with around 123 'regular' energy guns and 2 Phase Transit Cannons which took damned near all of the Concordia's energy for one shot, and she was a dreadnaught designed to carry this weapon.

And on top of that, you're driving a lot of mass in all the armor, fighter support equipment, whatever reactors you've stuffed into this hull...

This is a battlestation.

Third,

The heavy torpedo defenses may seem extreme, but remember, the WCM Concordia had 50 torpedo-tubes. This ship "only" has 26.
The WCM Concordia was a supercruiser. If I recall correctly, cruisers are MEANT to do capship battle... and aren't devoting space or mass to supporting 430 fighters. Plus, we've not seen 50+ torpedo tubes on any capships since then; the technology in the WCM seemed to be on a level below that of the start of WC1, or so I'm led to believe from readings on AGWC and on here. Old tech torpedos =/= the new tech ones, and we don't know the size differential for those torps. Again, you put a carrier in these close quarters, and it's nearly mincemeat... the Tarawa was a light escort, and her sister ship Gallipoli got torn open when they went broadsides with a Kilrathi carrier (a tactic which was, as were many of Krueger's, suicidal in the extreme).

Now, remember that the class of ship that Tarawa belonged to was meant to be expendable, being built on a transport hull. Are you really sure you want to risk your big, bad toy the same way? Vesuvius tore up the St. Helens pretty good, and took quite a bit of damage itself. And that was just against one ship. A proper battle group could probably have taken down the Vesuvius, if only because they'd overwhelm her with targets while sending out spreads of torpedos from multiple directions... tactics employed to great success in False Colors in Munro system.

And even the mighty Vesuvius only had -two- torpedo tubes.

Fourth,

This whole thing is mostly just a "how a carrier SHOULD have been designed", not an actual proposal for a super-carrier.

-Concordia
"That's all Leftenant!"
When it comes down to it, you have to remember the mission; a carrier is a craft meant to deliver fighters to some point and then deploy them. It's not meant to take on whole battle groups by itself and win, nor is it meant to be an anti-capship weapon by itself.

There are matters of economic feasability, technological limitations, as well as design issues and tradeoffs to be made here. More mass means more powerful engines are required, which means either more cost... or else engines which take up more of the ship's tonnage... or else you sacrifice armor or superstructure in order to reduce the mass enough so that you get more than 5 kps of speed in combat maneuvering. Acceleration is affected by inertia, which is in turn affected by mass. A huge carrier is NOT going to spin on a dime the way a Vampire or Panther can, simply because she's got so much more weight to throw around, scoops or no scoops. They're big, lumbering beasts for a reason.

Power is another consideration; you only get so much energy out of a reactor, which also affects speed, acceleration, shielding, and weapon capability as you've got only so much energy to spread between all your vital systems. Too big a reactor, and you've got more mass to propel, plus all the problems with shielding the reactor, making sure you've got enough interior space for it, and also issues of protecting it. Either you stuff a LOT of reactors into your hull to power over a hundred heavy-drain energy weapons, or else you sacrifice some weapons to reduce mass and energy consumption.

Life support's also an issue with up to 8000 crew, not counting the support personnel for the fighter squadrons. Every fighter that has one pilot will probably also need a crew chief, two or three other technicians to work on the fighter itself... people to arm it, etc. So each fighter will require a team of 6-7 people, maybe more, to keep it functioning. That adds more mass, living space requirements, and allocation of space for food and any other supplies necessary. Even if you've got a hydroponics setup, you need space for all of the equipment necessary to feed your crew, unless you've got technomagic items like Star Trek replicators available.

This doesn't consider things like political support, the shipyards required to build the monster, customized equipment, studies of its feasability, developing the technology required (new PTCs for one, maybe a new class of reactors, definitely a new class of engines to produce the speed needed, maneuvering drives that would allow this maneuverability, maybe more advancements on the same jump engines Midway uses), and on top of that the resources needed.

I do think the reason given for the Midway-class ship design in the WCP manual is quite valid for a post-war economy; it's a lot easier to support a fleet consisting of twelve megacarriers, plus assorted task forces with somewhat older but more powerful craft, versus one with several dozen older carrier types to equal the same amount of force projection. Plus the Midway's a lot more economic than a fleet of Vesuvius-class ships, I suspect, due to its versatility and its reduced mass, reduced armor (2000 versus 6000 for the Vesuvius), and smaller fighter compliment (which means less support equipment and staff).

Yes, the Vesuvius can carry more fighters... but it's so bloody expensive that they decided to make a fleet of Midway-class ships instead.
 

Oggy

Rear Admiral
I think I'd prefer a smaller, faster, quick strike vessel (like the Hades) to a large super carrier.

the words, eggs, basket, one and putting (rearrang the preceedingwords into a sentance) come to mind with super vessels.

Perhaps some sort of battle-cruiser type ship, that is fast enough to outrun anything that can outgun it, but powerful enough to smash anything that can catch it? (assuming the fighters and bombers don't trash the enemy first)
 

Slawter

Spaceman
Well, for me, that's how each kind of ship would be:

Carrier - Light Weaponry, medium speed, medium shields and hull, at least 1 flight wing.

Light Carrier - Light Weaponry, medium shields, light hull, high speed, half a flight wing.

Destroyer - Medium weaponry, medium speed, medium shields and hull, no fighters.

Cruiser - Heavy weaponry, low speed, medium shields, heavy hull, a fighter squadron.

Frigate - Light weaponry, medium speed, medium shields, light armor, four fighters.

Battlecruiser - REALLY heavy weaponry, very low speed, heavy shields, heavy hull, six fighters.

Missile cruiser - Light energy weaponry, heavy missile weaponry, medium speed, medium shields, medium hull, no fighters.

Light Cruiser - Medium weaponry, medium shields, medium speed, medium hull, six fighters.

Corvette - Light Weaponry, light shields, light hull, high speed, no fighters.

Supercarrier - Medium weaponry, heavy shields, medium hull, medium speed, at least 3 flight wings.
 

Oggy

Rear Admiral
<Pedantic>
The Battle cruiser is not a true battleship per se, the theory behind a battle cruiser is that it carries the fire power of a battleship, yet has the speed of a cruiser. It generally achieves this by sacrificing heavy armour to reduce its mass, therefore, by your specs,

Battle Cruiser - Heavy Firepower, Low (or high ?) shields, Weak Armour, Good Speed, Small Complement of fighters/bombers.

</Pedantic>
 

Concordia

Swabbie
Banned
Originally posted by Haesslich
That ship's gun compliment would give a male porn star penis envy. I apologize for the mistake about the gender, but the sheer number of guns would be overcompensation if proposed in another context.
LOL!

With how many reactors are you powering this, not counting the 5 CSMs, 26 torpedo tubes, and the rest? Shields, engines, etc? This is a bloody monster of a ship, closer to a stationary defense complex in its weapon compliment (I'm thinking Ella Superbase) than a mobile craft meant to be fast enough to take 430 fighters to any point in Confed space. 62 dual laser turrets, 21 AMGs, 16 QUAD heavy tachyons, 24 quad heavy photos, phase shields, engines capable of 170 kps in combat maneuver speed, life support for almost 8000 crew, the YPR of a shuttle... this requires a LOT of power. Especially with around 123 'regular' energy guns and 2 Phase Transit Cannons which took damned near all of the Concordia's energy for one shot, and she was a dreadnaught designed to carry this weapon.
The Behemoth was far larger and got no complaints. Of course it had an entire power-array to power it. This ship used a miniature arrayed power generation system. Similar to the one used on the TCS-Orion (WC Aces Canon).

And on top of that, you're driving a lot of mass in all the armor, fighter support equipment, whatever reactors you've stuffed into this hull...
The ship calls for 7 reactors which form the power array. 5 are on at all times. The remaining two are simply back-ups. The reactors are rotated... one's shut off, the other's activated in its place. You only need 6 reactors to power the ship however.

This is a battlestation.
How can it be a battle-station if it's not STATIONARY!

Now, remember that the class of ship that Tarawa belonged to was meant to be expendable, being built on a transport hull. Are you really sure you want to risk your big, bad toy the same way? Vesuvius tore up the St. Helens pretty good, and took quite a bit of damage itself. And that was just against one ship. A proper battle group could probably have taken down the Vesuvius, if only because they'd overwhelm her with targets while sending out spreads of torpedos from multiple directions... tactics employed to great success in False Colors in Munro system.
Do you understand what 2-phase transit cannons, and 21 AMG's will do to a group of capital ships?

And even the mighty Vesuvius only had -two- torpedo tubes.
Only two torpedoes were *fired* from Vesuvius, I don't think it ever was said to have 2 tubes. But even if it did, this is why my design has so many tubes.

Vesuvius' tubes only cover the front, mine covers every possible axis. Additionally when you factor in the firepower of 24 AMG's and all those Heavy Tachyon, and Photon guns, combined with 62 point-defense guns you end up with a very nasty result.

As for 62 point-defenses seeming extreme? Not so, the Concordia supercruiser had 30 point-defenses, and was 855 meters long. This ship is over twice as long. 62 point-defenses isn't so extreme using that frame of referrence.

When it comes down to it, you have to remember the mission; a carrier is a craft meant to deliver fighters to some point and then deploy them. It's not meant to take on whole battle groups by itself and win, nor is it meant to be an anti-capship weapon by itself.
Yes, but you're thinking from an old-fasioned stand-point. Why not make them able to take on capital ships on their own. You want them to fly WITH a battlegroup? Go ahead. But it's foolish to design a ship that's unable to defend itself against all possible threats.

There are matters of economic feasability, technological limitations, as well as design issues and tradeoffs to be made here. More mass means more powerful engines are required, which means either more cost... or else engines which take up more of the ship's tonnage... or else you sacrifice armor or superstructure in order to reduce the mass enough so that you get more than 5 kps of speed in combat maneuvering. Acceleration is affected by inertia, which is in turn affected by mass. A huge carrier is NOT going to spin on a dime the way a Vampire or Panther can, simply because she's got so much more weight to throw around, scoops or no scoops. They're big, lumbering beasts for a reason.
Then explain how the Vesuvius maneuvered the way it did. It may have turned 6/6/6 in the FMV scenes, but I had to fight the ship when it was maneuvering with who-knows-what stats! That ship was wheeling around at at least 20 dps.

Power is another consideration; you only get so much energy out of a reactor, which also affects speed, acceleration, shielding, and weapon capability as you've got only so much energy to spread between all your vital systems. Too big a reactor, and you've got more mass to propel, plus all the problems with shielding the reactor, making sure you've got enough interior space for it, and also issues of protecting it. Either you stuff a LOT of reactors into your hull to power over a hundred heavy-drain energy weapons, or else you sacrifice some weapons to reduce mass and energy consumption.
The Behemoth was the most extreme energy-generating platform ever seen on a capital ship. Despite this, it still worked. My ship-design uses a fraction of the power Behemoth used.

As for moving extreme amounts of mass around, the Behemoth was still able to move at 5/5/5 dps, despite it's insanely larger mass. Moving this ship at it's given DPS is fairly easy.

Life support's also an issue with up to 8000 crew, not counting the support personnel for the fighter squadrons. Every fighter that has one pilot will probably also need a crew chief, two or three other technicians to work on the fighter itself... people to arm it, etc. So each fighter will require a team of 6-7 people, maybe more, to keep it functioning. That adds more mass, living space requirements, and allocation of space for food and any other supplies necessary. Even if you've got a hydroponics setup, you need space for all of the equipment necessary to feed your crew, unless you've got technomagic items like Star Trek replicators available.
The Vesuvius had a crew of 7,800 standard.

This doesn't consider things like political support, the shipyards required to build the monster, customized equipment, studies of its feasability, developing the technology required (new PTCs for one, maybe a new class of reactors, definitely a new class of engines to produce the speed needed, maneuvering drives that would allow this maneuverability, maybe more advancements on the same jump engines Midway uses), and on top of that the resources needed.
The ship is not supposed to be a Midway Successor, it's supposed to be more along the lines of how Midway "should" have been designed, or Vesuvius for that matter.

I do think the reason given for the Midway-class ship design in the WCP manual is quite valid for a post-war economy; it's a lot easier to support a fleet consisting of twelve megacarriers, plus assorted task forces with somewhat older but more powerful craft, versus one with several dozen older carrier types to equal the same amount of force projection. Plus the Midway's a lot more economic than a fleet of Vesuvius-class ships, I suspect, due to its versatility and its reduced mass, reduced armor (2000 versus 6000 for the Vesuvius), and smaller fighter compliment (which means less support equipment and staff).
The Vesuvius did NOT have 6,000 cm of armor. It had 4,000.

Yes, the Vesuvius can carry more fighters... but it's so bloody expensive that they decided to make a fleet of Midway-class ships instead.
My design is not thought of from a money point of view. This ship is thought of from a practical point of view.

A carrier that could protect itself against a multitude of threats.

-Concordia
 

t.c.cgi

Vice Admiral
You want to know the one weakness of this.. umm... thing?

It has no toilets. :p You just have to hold it until next trip to port. That alone can cripple the ship. A crew distracted by having to use the potty, but not being able to find one, is incapacitated, and therefore cannot run the ship.

However, to offset this, the ship was programmed with the AI from PacMan. :D
 

Concordia

Swabbie
Banned
Originally posted by t.c.cgi
You want to know the one weakness of this.. umm... thing?

It has no toilets. :p You just have to hold it until next trip to port. That alone can cripple the ship. A crew distracted by having to use the potty, but not being able to find one, is incapacitated, and therefore cannot run the ship.

However, to offset this, the ship was programmed with the AI from PacMan. :D
Toilets go without saying. I didn't say there were showers either, yet nobody says "everyone onboard is gonna be stinkier than a skunk".

Toilets are a standard addition to all capital ships...

-Concordia
"Give me a break"
 

Delance

Victory, you say?
Wow, isn't this guy detailed? Normally is stuff like "PD guns: Lots of them" or just give a number.
 
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