More Map Progress

Shane

Spaceman
I wondered how long it would take for this argument to pop up again.

LOAF, started reading thorugh End Run after I looked at all the notes in this thread (my head is starting to hurt :) ) I saw your comment about End Run not getting systems and sectors straight. Not sure how you want to use it or where you want to put it, but Thrak makes a reference in End Run (p. 139, last two words on the page) to the Ujarka Sector. I assume he misspoke and meant to tell them Ujarka System :) He had just found out about Vular Tag and was giving an order to have the home fleet assemble there. I didn't see an Ujarka listed anywhere, but may have missed it.

A Confed system I may have missed is Oberan (p. 89). The Tarawa and the Marine convoy passed through it when they were supposed to be heading for Khartoum station for the Marines training. Those orders were changed for the attack on Vukar Tag.
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Shane, Oberan, like many other End Run locations, was already marked on the WCP map :).

Now then... first up, Enigma long jumps. Here's my suggestions, LOAF - one link from Enigma to Ella. Why Ella? Well, I figure this would explain the (later?) decision to build the Ella Superbase there. It's not very deep in Sol Sector, but it's only two jumps from Sol System, so it should be deep enough.
A second link I would suggest to Epsilon Prime. In this case, my reasoning is that Epsilon Prime is important enough to warrant the renaming of an entire sector, so there's gotta be something there...
I would also suggest a third link, to Landreich, and more specifically to either Vordran or Black Hole System 299. Both of these systems are clearly very special (dunno what's special about Vordran, but there's gotta be some anomaly there, given the freakishly huge number of jumps), and I would figure that there would be a fairly high chance of a jump link forming between any anomalous systems.

Next... the double jump. This is a difficult issue, since we don't exactly know what a double-jump means. Hmm... doesn't the Angel mission (where we jump ahead in Broadswords) happen right after the double jump, yet still in Tesla? Bah, my WC2 memory is fuzzy, and I'm away from my normal computer and WC2 this week. Gotta check the guide about this one. Still, if the double-jump does in fact start in Tesla, then Blake sounds like a good half-way point.

Hari... I don't see much point mapping out all 1000 systems, simply because this would take much too much time and space (besides, judging from the height of that number, what we know as the Hari Sector is probably actually a whole bunch of sectors). Best if you map out the known jump links from FA and leave it at that.

Hellespont-Sol - definitely don't put in a jump link like that. Such a link would make the whole Vega campaign a rather bizarre concept, all things considered... besides, we'd have to assume on that same basis that there's a jump point from Nephele to Sol. It's better if we assume in both cases that we simply didn't see all the jumps in-between to save movie time and space.

Probably a few other issues I've forgotten about (and yeah, thanks for the Rarkath jump link :)), but I'm tired, so just one final note - I don't think that trying to map out Kilrathi clans is a very good idea (at this stage). We don't know enough about who owns what. Also, I think the eight do own systems... I vaguely recall a book reference to one of the clan leaders being unhappy because his systems were almost all at the frontlines. Anyway, we just don't have enough info to attempt to map out clan ownership :(.
 

Wedge009

Rogue Leader
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
...what's said is that it's possible to jump across the entire sector in a single jump -- either deep into Kilrathi space or into the Sol Sector. I think we can simulate this with just two long jump lines... somebody want to pick them?
It's probably not necessary, we could probably consider them extremely risky or unconventional jumps and leave them off the map.

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
- Jump line from Tesla to somewhere that links to Enigma (for the double jump) (Suggestion: Blake).
Blake looks okay. I suppose that would imply that the direct jump was not known at the time (or was just put in as a straight jump on the map for simplicity, or just called a double-jump for the sake of drama).

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
The intro, the Amadeus is headed there... Admiral ending -- Hawk tells you that the rebellion there is 'picking up steam'.
Gah, I knew both of them...

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
Found one -- the Gorath System. (And possibly the Candar System).
I'll take your word for it, since I haven't bothered reading it. I don't think it's worthwhile adding Candar, since it is a simulator... but I suppose it makes sense to name the starbase after the real one to instill a sense of urgency in defence in training pilots.

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
All asommers references are equal in our eyes.
Not that quote again. If you insist, I guess...

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
Another possibility, which I'll note, is marking the fake-jump of the Steltek Scout.
I don't think it was a 'fake' jump - it's not too hard to imagine the Steltek as being so knowledgable that they can jump to any place in one go. But I suppose you could still mark a special jump from Nitir (I think) to Delta Prime).

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
Shoel-Baroda from the manual -- an interesting thing to map, since Shoel isn't a star system... it's a point in deep space, that plays host to unstable jump points.
Grayson's story? I should have thought of that. Where might that be, since it's obviously not in Gemini? One of the spinward sectors? (Or counter-spinward, I really can't remember which way it goes on the WCP map. Whichever side is furthest away from the Kilrathi front.)
 

Wedge009

Rogue Leader
Originally posted by Kalfor
...why are you re-doing the systems? The WCP map is wrong?
Not wrong (not wholly, anyway), just incomplete.

Originally posted by Kalfor
...but why redo, for example, Enigma?
Again, because it's incomplete. There's always more stuff to be added. eg The Niffleheim, Fiddler's Green, and Midian colonies.

Originally posted by Kalfor
Those Pilgrim systems... you intend to mix up real WC with movie WC? I mean, c'mon, it's not the same thing you could put in separated or something
First: several Pilgrim systems were already on the WCP map. Second: as much as they seem different, separating them would be much harder - and twice as much work. This is an effort to bring all known WC trivia (at least in regards to place names) together.

Originally posted by Kalfor
I also checked some of the systems... there is one odd thing some systems that are under one government's control, but doesn't even have jumps back to other systems from that government.
It happens all over the place - most prominently with the UBW (look at the Armada sectors). It's not a big problem, especially with the UBW and Confed co-operating again in 2681. I'm not so sure about the Kilrathi systems, but again, it shouldn't matter - I'm under the impression that Confed will assist the Kilrathi in the event of an attack (remember WCP? ;)
 

Wedge009

Rogue Leader
Originally posted by Quarto
...Enigma long jumps...
I think all your suggestions sound okay - mostly because I can't be bothered to think any better ones myself! :)

Originally posted by Quarto
Hari... I don't see much point mapping out all 1000 systems... Best if you map out the known jump links from FA and leave it at that.
I concur.

Originally posted by Quarto
Hellespont-Sol - definitely don't put in a jump link like that... better if we assume in both cases that we simply didn't see all the jumps in-between to save movie time and space.
Again, I agree.
 

Raptor

Spaceman
Hey, LOAF, would you mind answering a couple of questions for me?

First, it looks like the BW has (at least) doubled the number of systems it has compared to the Prophecy map. Could you list for me all the BW systems that aren't on the map, and those that are?

Second , if someone had to get to from Orestes to Niflelhiem in a big hurry, what would you reckon as the shortest route, taking into account both the number of jumps and the distances (if known) in real space between the jump points?

Best, Raptor
 

Kalfor

Spaceman
On the WC and WCM difference...

you cant even think that they are both the same

the movie´s date is wrong (its 100 years before the game in date)
they have a different story. not only pilots are from the navy and not space force, they fight on the ground as well as pilot. They also have the pilgrims, which is one major difference in the storyline. They have this so miraculous Navcomp. The kats look like skinned bulldogs and breath some odd green gas
and there are many small things in it too
Only reason roberts called it wc and put in the people´s and ship´s names was because he wanted somehow to use what he have being working for so long. Obviously he didnt have the rights to do follow the same story or simply smoked some weed before he wrote the script
the movie is not the same as the computer games and books

I wasnt aware that many systems in the movie and the pilgrim books were already in the wcp map. that makes things a lot easier and I can understand adding them to the map

just dont say movie and game is the same thing :)
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
(Unfortunately, my reply was twice as long as the CZ allows:/)

Updated Thing-A-Ma-Jig

****************
*FREEDOM FLIGHT*
****************

Done!

*********
*END RUN*
*********

Ujarka System!

Two areas of Kilrathi space are detailed in End Run...

"Long Jump" -- a 500 parsec jump line that goes from Confed space to the lower portion of the Kilrathi Empire, 4 jumps from Kilrah. Like this: (Jugara)-(Gmarktu)-(Jubara)-(Unnamed)-Kilrah.

"Escape from Kilrah" -- (Kilrah)-(Vuwarg)-(Lushkag)-(Baragh)
Baragh also has jumps to "Xsar" and "Rushta".

The System Bucket
Uruk System -- Confed, anywhere.
Oargth System -- Kilrathi, anywhere but Enigma.
Bukrag System -- Kilrathi, anywhere but Enigma.

**************
*FLEET ACTION*
**************

Munro System -- Munro is two jumps from Sirius, and has another jump to Kilrathi space.

Now here's the hard part:
According to Fleet Action, there are three 'main' routes that the Kilrathi can take from the frontier to Sirius. They are...

Sirius Jump Alpha: 14 jumps to the frontier. Includes: (Sirius)-(UK)-(UK)-(Warsaw)-Rest. Warsaw is *also* two jumps from the frontier. Go figure.
Sirius Jump Beta: 12 jumps to the frontier.
Sirius Jump Delta: 13 jumps to the frontier.

Sirius has another jump (Gamma?) that leads back towards Earth: (Sirius)-(UK)-(UK)-(UK)-Sol


Hari Issues --

1,000 abandoned systems -- many of which have not had jumps charted to them (dead planets).
The Hari System is 24 jumps from Kilrah.

(Hell Hole)-(Vordran)-(Unk)-(Unk)-(Unk-Beacon)-(Unk)-(Unk)-(Unk)-(Pagkh)-(Unk)-(Unk)-(Unk)-(Unk)-(Unk)-(Unk)-(Unk)-(SpyShipUnk)-(Unk)-(Unk)-(Unk)-(Hari)

SpyShipUnk has three jumps -- one leading back towards Kilrah.

System Bucket
Draga System -- Kilrathi, anywhere.
Zarnobian System -- Kilrathi, anywhere.

Sol-Barnard's Star jump. (Renamed Bernard's Star "Bernard's Star / Barnard's Star")

Hari Space: 1,000 abandoned systems -- should we make up a map for it?

*****************
*ACTION STATIONS*
*****************

Yarin Sector -- adjacent to the Facin Sector. Opposite Varni Republic.
Facin Sector -- well, you get the idea.
Nanking Sector -- Confed/Kilrathi border.

(Unlike End Run, Action Stations gets the difference between a Sector and a System... I think these names should be applied to various ArmadaSectors).

Varni -- 30 worlds, now in Kilrathi space. Includes "Karing" and "Turing".

System Bucket
Primus System -- Confed(?), frontier.
Ingraya System -- Confed, Border.
Tangier System -- Confed, anywhere.
Carlin System -- Confed, anywhere.
Etruria -- The region directly opposite from the Landreich.
Yorin System -- formerly Confed, has gone supernova.
Panama System -- Confed, anywhere.

- Check the number of stars Confed is supposed to have.

********************
*Heart of the Tiger*
********************

The System Pool-
New Samarkand
New Sydney
Muspelheim

**********************
*The Price of Freedom*
**********************

The System Pool-
Gonwyn System
Altair System

**************
*False Colors*
**************

New Plains/Landreich jump issues.
Sol-Barnard's Star jump.

****************
*Wing Commander*
****************

Done.

***************
*Pilgrim Stars*
***************

Done!

*****
*WC1*
*****

Warhammer System -- Kilrathi, Vega Sector. (From SNES SM1)
Move Anchorage/Jakarta
Fix Tau Ceti.
Add Border Zone-Goddard jump line.

*****
*WC2*
*****

Done!
Change "K'Tithrak Mang" to "K'Tithrak Mang/K'tithrak Mang".
- Jump line from Tesla to Novaya Kiev. According to Angel, the William Tell jumps to help defend Novaya Kiev.
- Jump line from Tesla to somewhere that links to Enigma (for the double jump) (Suggestion: Blake).
Enigma Black HOle

*****
*WC3*
*****

Done!
Loki VI/Loki
(Gardel?!)
Go through the manual -- lot sof stuff.

*****
*WC4*
*****

Perillia
Petunia
Verula
Ulsima
Anatic Prime(?)

ELla Majora(?)
Ella Minora(?)
Fuma Malo(?)

System Bucket-
Logo - Confed
Astoria - Confed
Megaron - Confed, hah-hah.

*****
*WCP*
*****

Tal'Q Naval Base
Change B'Shriss to B'shriss.
Check character bios in guide

*********
*ACADEMY*
*********

System Bucket
Gorath System - Kilrathi
Candar System -- Possible Confed. Questionable.

********
*ARMADA*
********

Terragon Line from Gauntlet.
MAYBE: Extract 'random' system names not used in set sectors.

Kr'azna -- Kilrathi word for the Custer's Carnival system. (See Confed Handbook)
Pembroke -- gateway between Engima and Vega.
Munro's Kilrathi jump goes straight to Kilrah! (?!?!?!)
Damioyn System -- Confed
ES-341 -- Outpost in Enigma
Bordrav System -- Kilrathi, near Omega Sector
Omega Sector -- Kilrathi, you get the point.
Trak'mar -- Kilrathi, wherever.

***********
*PRIVATEER*
***********

Check official guide
Mjolnar System -- Confed
Sheol System -- Confed. Jump from Baroda. Has unstable jump points leading to unknown locations.
Baroda System -- jumps to Shoel.
Ceti Prime -- Confed homeworld.

*************
*PRIVATEER 2*
*************

Isaac/Irrulan/Hom

************
*ACADEMY TV*
************

Lots of stuff! Watch later.

*******
*MOVIE*
*******

Look at maptables and such. Follow jumps.

**********
*HANDBOOK*
**********

Vega Sector (33)
Tamayo
Tali
Cambria
Hell's Kitchen
Delius
Seggalion
Loki VI
Mylon
Nephele
Gimle
Pephedro
Dieno
McAuliffe
K'n'Rek
K'n'Meth
Hawkins
N'Dele
Enyo
Alcor
Brimstone
Eddings
Proxima
Gateway
Xanadu
Hubble's Star
Port Hedland
Planck's Star
Chang-Cu
Dakota
Freya
Krissth
Tartarus
Baird's Star

Trkpahn Sector (3)
Maginot
Roche
Sakah Trk'

Gemini Sector (4)
Pentonville
Aldebran
Hind's Variable N.
XXN-1927

Sol Sector (37)
61 Cygni
Agdes
Alpha Centauri
Alpha Tauri
Aquila
Asylum
Beacon
Bernard's Star
Canarus
E-Erandi
E-Indi
Ella
Eta Carinae
Faith
Gjovik
Leonis
Mastif
Mauer
Miyaira
Morone
Newbauer
Polaris
Procyon
Ross 194
Ross 34G
Ross 345
Sirius
Tikopal
Timonen
Tingville
Todd
Wattenberger
Weslyn
Wolf 359
Zera Orionis
Sol
Grimstad

Enigma Sector (18)
Pournelle
Piper
Telamon
Gibson
VOnnegut
Clarke
Foster
Salayna
Sterling
Callimachus
Axius
Hillerman
Novaya Kiev
Speardon
Pembroke
Irving
Crichton
Brin

Epsilon (16)
Chanel
Epsiilon Prima
Ayers
T'lan Meth
Valgard
Bifrost
Bifrost -> Unknown (down) -> Unknown (up) -> Unknown (Left)
Silenos
Canwedon
Tas Mahrahn
Masa
QUal'lat
Torgo
Goddard
Orsini
Morpheus

Confed Handbook NOtes
{Trk'Pahn Sector}, H'hriss Q.: T'set mehr is spelled "T'set Mehr"
{Gemini Sector}, Potter Q.: Shangri La changes to "Shangri La / Shangrila"

Mark Pilgrim Systems? (Check Pilgrim Stars if I choose to do this)

Other issues --
Wanted: List of 'alternate' sector names.

Enigma Sector -- aka Gwynedd Sector, Niven Sector, K'Tithrak Mang Sector
Epsilon Sector -- aka Antares Sector, aka Firekka Sector, aka Deneb Sector
{Check on WC3 Sectors}

Races -- do they get their own names? (Attach list of races)
Eyoka - Kilrathi Space
Gorth - Kilrathi Space
Haggan/Hagarin - Unknown
Ka - Kilrathi Space
Jarma - Unknown
Shata - Kilrathi Space
Utara - Kilrathi Space
Sorn - Kilrathi Space
Wu - Kilrahti Space
Yan - Confed Space?

Clans -- do they get their own planets? (Attach list of clans)
(Presumably, the eight do *not* get planets... since they pre-date interstellar travel. But we've seen thoat, for example, there's a Ghorah Khar clan (and a Hhallas clan) -- should we fill out Kilrathi systems with clan names?)0
nar Val
nar Hhallas
nar Som'mers
nar Kulrag
lan Dorv
nar Volles
nar Dhores
nar Khirg
lan Mraal
nar T'Agg A'Bren
nar Ta'hal
nar Ja'targk
nar Dhollas
nar N'Ryllis
dai Nokhtak
ko Lannis
jaq Rhang
nar Vharr
nar Poghath
lak Haka
nar Tsahl

What's in Phase III?
- Special jump lines marked. (Pulsar, large versus small, etc)
- Jump lines labelled.
- Star types, # of planets, types of planets labelled.
- Spatial anomalies marked -- nebulas, clusters, etc.
- The route of the Olympus, marked? Steltek stuff?
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
*more* than twice as long.

The movie argument *and* my map thread! Together at last!

the movie´s date is wrong (its 100 years before the game in date)
The second scene of the movie very clearly notes that it is March 15th, 2654. Wing Commander 1 starts in April, 2654. Last I checked, there is less than 100 years between March and April of the same year.

not only pilots are from the navy and not space force
Pilots in "real" Wing Commander have both Navy and Space Forces ranks... we see this in Action Stations, End Run and the Kilrathi Saga manual.

they fight on the ground as well as pilot.
The group that took over the ConCom were marines (Sgt. Cogan!) -- Blair was there against orders... he'd been assigned as turret gunner on the Diligent. (Angel was there because she had completed a special training course onboard a captured Dorkir, which was similar to the Thrakhra class ConCom).

They also have the pilgrims, which is one major difference in the storyline.
If you can point out any place in Wing Commander 1 where Blair's religion is stated, I will gladly concede this point. (Any game later, of course, would take place after Pilgrim Truth -- and thus would not have Pilgrims... although if you can find evidence in any later game of what Blair's religion is, you can use that too).

They have this so miraculous Navcomp.
Yeah! Regular jump drives don't need computers that calculate coordinates for them! They just work! With magic!

The kats look like skinned bulldogs and breath some odd green gas
and there are many small things in it too
As opposed to the Kilrathi in the games, who don't breathe any gas at all (and have no skin!).

Only reason roberts called it wc and put in the people´s and ship´s names was because he wanted somehow to use what he have being working for so long. Obviously he didnt have the rights to do follow the same story or simply smoked some weed before he wrote the script
It's amazing that we can actually see the point where you go from person-with-legitimate-complaints to stupidest man alive. Not liking the movie is not a carte blanche to make up stupid conspiracy theories.

EA granted DA Chris Roberts the movie rights to WC1-4 (the rights for *two* movies, actually... and TV rights!) -- this was announced way back in 1996 or so. It was in the news. Kevin Droney et al wrote the first draft of the script, based on the Wing Commander license. It was not just "called" Wing Commander later on. They produced the entire film called Wing Commander. I'm wearing a crew jacket right now that was given out on the set. It has the Confed logo on it, and says "Wing Commander - Luxembourg, 1999". Chris Roberts didn't just 'happen' to make a movie with all the same characters, with all the same names, fighting the same alien race <G> Things looking different in the movie are simply a case of several things:

- Wing Commander 1 was made in 1990. It was a 2D, 256 color computer game. The number of people who care that a Dralthi looks *exactly* the same (7 or so) far outweighs the cost of making a 2D, 256 color movie. :)
- All properties are 'popularized' when brought to the big screen -- Wing Commander 1 is a series of missions connected by dialogue with very little story. It takes about six hours straight to play through it. This would be a *very* boring movie.

Instead, they chose to tell the story of a single incident at the start of Blair and Maniac's careers. Making Blair Freddie Prinze Jr. is no less blasphemous than making him Mark Hamill. And so forth, and so on.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
First, it looks like the BW has (at least) doubled the number of systems it has compared to the Prophecy map. Could you list for me all the BW systems that aren't on the map, and those that are?
Original Map
Cabrea
Telamon
Racene
Harrison
Bradbury
Repleetah
Shelton
Wetland
McCaffrey
Bistangio/Bistango
Trafalgar
Circe
Granita
Veronica
Antares
Ayers
Ross 34F
Epsilon Prime
Peleus
Chanel
Canewdon
Torgo
Deneb
Baird's Star
Tartarus
Dakota
Hellespont
Tyr
Kurasawa
Nephele
Loki VI
Mylon
Segallion
Elohim
Ymir
Nifleheim

Additions
New Plains
Liz
Piece
Treadway
Qatar III
Qatar II
Wunch
Zartoff
Cartel
Mara II
Isilbit
Celtic
Rollins III
Endigo
Klondar III
Dannen
Repton
Gundel
Endo
Anrtope
Donner
Kaltar
Telcorra
Cunning
Zantha I
Kronos II
Ulvatta
Mopac I
Lurro II
Frote
Yarra
Lambo
Vantage
Kalisto
Abel I
War I
Lod
Darah
Hephar
Nimbus
Sanctuary III
Worram I
Worram III
Leyton

Second , if someone had to get to from Orestes to Niflelhiem in a big hurry, what would you reckon as the shortest route, taking into account both the number of jumps and the distances (if known) in real space between the jump points?
The quicest route is: Orestes-Silenos-Torgo-Loki-Nifleheim

First: several Pilgrim systems were already on the WCP map.
In fact, the entire Pilgrim heirarchy is *based* on the the WCU map and the fact that "McDaniel's World" is surrounded by spiritual-sounding systems. When McCubbin did the hanbook, he named the creator of the Pilgrim religion McDaniel because of this, and based the events of the Pilgrim War around these systems... and then Telep continued this further when he explored Pilgrim mythology in 'Stars'.

I'm under the impression that Confed will assist the Kilrathi in the event of an attack (remember WCP?
Prophecy does, in fact, claim that they are our allies (Paladin's letter).

I'll take your word for it, since I haven't bothered reading it. I don't think it's worthwhile adding Candar, since it is a simulator... but I suppose it makes sense to name the starbase after the real one to instill a sense of urgency in defence in training pilots.
This brings up a new fish -- what, by the way of Confed systems, do we add?

My first reaction would be only things that are called a system, or are followed by a number. Creighton 2 -- fine, that definately means there's a Creighton System. Candar Station? Not necessarily, since stations and systems don't always match up.

But then: Action Station states that the Confederation "is hundreds, thousands of systems" -- do we fill in blank spaces with things like Kentari or Leydos?

I don't think it was a 'fake' jump - it's not too hard to imagine the Steltek as being so knowledgable that they can jump to any place in one go. But I suppose you could still mark a special jump from Nitir (I think) to Delta Prime).
That's very good thinking. I have to check the Privateer Guide to see what it says about the jump, but if it doesn't comment, then this is how I'll do it.

Grayson's story? I should have thought of that. Where might that be, since it's obviously not in Gemini? One of the spinward sectors? (Or counter-spinward, I really can't remember which way it goes on the WCP map. Whichever side is furthest away from the Kilrathi front.)
I would pick Avalon, since it's 'next' to Gemini (Retros seem to be a fairly local problem...), and it's unexplored.

Now then... first up, Enigma long jumps. Here's my suggestions, LOAF - one link from Enigma to Ella. Why Ella? Well, I figure this would explain the (later?) decision to build the Ella Superbase there. It's not very deep in Sol Sector, but it's only two jumps from Sol System, so it should be deep enough. A second link I would suggest to Epsilon Prime. In this case, my reasoning is that Epsilon Prime is important enough to warrant the renaming of an entire sector, so there's gotta be something there...
I think this is a good idea -- although I'd also like to add a jump into Kilrathi space in the Epsilon Sector -- since Angel says Enigma black hole was valuable to Confed for the same reason it was valuable to the Kilrathi...

I would also suggest a third link, to Landreich, and more specifically to either Vordran or Black Hole System 299. Both of these systems are clearly very special (dunno what's special about Vordran, but there's gotta be some anomaly there, given the freakishly huge number of jumps), and I would figure that there would be a fairly high chance of a jump link forming between any anomalous systems.
I've got to nix these three, because the text specifies that there are no jumps to Confed space from Vordran and BH299 -- and the importance of the Landreich should be downplayed... it's not *supposed* to be strategic at all.

Next... the double jump. This is a difficult issue, since we don't exactly know what a double-jump means. Hmm... doesn't the Angel mission (where we jump ahead in Broadswords) happen right after the double jump, yet still in Tesla? Bah, my WC2 memory is fuzzy, and I'm away from my normal computer and WC2 this week. Gotta check the guide about this one. Still, if the double-jump does in fact start in Tesla, then Blake sounds like a good half-way point.
To the best of my recollection (after checking the guide and script:)), Blair and Angel jump *directly* to the Tesla System -- while the Concordia 'double-jumps' to get the Kilrathi off her trail. (Jumps from Enigma to somewhere and then immediately to Tesla)... and then you meet up.

Hari... I don't see much point mapping out all 1000 systems, simply because this would take much too much time and space (besides, judging from the height of that number, what we know as the Hari Sector is probably actually a whole bunch of sectors). Best if you map out the known jump links from FA and leave it at that.
For now, at least <G>

Hellespont-Sol - definitely don't put in a jump link like that.
Agreed.

Probably a few other issues I've forgotten about (and yeah, thanks for the Rarkath jump link ), but I'm tired, so just one final note - I don't think that trying to map out Kilrathi clans is a very good idea (at this stage). We don't know enough about who owns what. Also, I think the eight do own systems... I vaguely recall a book reference to one of the clan leaders being unhappy because his systems were almost all at the frontlines. Anyway, we just don't have enough info to attempt to map out clan ownership.
The eight noble clans own *everything* -- and Kilrathi derive their names from locations. Were you a commoner born on Ghorah Khar, you'd be Quarto nar Ghorah Khar. The eight noble clans rule the empire, but they were all created *before* the Kilrathi reached space -- so Caxki/Ki'ra/Ragitagha/etc must all be places local to Kilrah. Other names (nar Val, nar Tsal, etc) probably come from planets...

LOAF, started reading thorugh End Run after I looked at all the notes in this thread (my head is starting to hurt ) I saw your comment about End Run not getting systems and sectors straight. Not sure how you want to use it or where you want to put it, but Thrak makes a reference in End Run (p. 139, last two words on the page) to the Ujarka Sector. I assume he misspoke and meant to tell them Ujarka System He had just found out about Vular Tag and was giving an order to have the home fleet assemble there. I didn't see an Ujarka listed anywhere, but may have missed it.
Thank you, this is indeed a useful reference.

Why the hell did they create the Pilgrims?
To create an obstacle and backstory for a main character who lacked both of such things in the movie. The 'concept' of Pilgrims stems from the idea of discrimination against Border Worlders in WCIV (in the first draft of the script, Blair is discriminated against because he's a Border Worlder with unique Border World powers).

first, why are you redoing the systems? the wcp map is wrong?
No map in history has ever remained current. :)

I mean, i know you are adding the ones mentioned in the books, but why redo, for example, enigma? Its already on the map representing what its said of it by the number of jump lines, and how far they reach out
Well... try finding the Talbot System on the original map -- you actually go there in Wing Commander 2!

other thing, those pilgrim systems...you intend to mix up real wc with movie wc? I mean, cmon, its not the same thing you could put in separated or something
Real WC? Movie WC? You so crazy.

I also checked some of the systems...there is one odd thing
some systems that are under one government´s control, but doesnt even have jumps back to other systems from that government
I know I saw a BW system inside confed space with no jump to UBW worlds, and 3 (I think) kat systems with conections only to confed systems
aint that at least odd?
There are issues like this on the Armada maps, which haven't been connected to the rest of the world yet.

LOAF, where are you "working" now? Did you finish down at Texas?
No, I'm waiting on more eye surgery back here... eventually I'll go back to Texas, I hope. I'm working a very, very easy job at Montgomery College in Rockville (assistant in the English department) <G>

Anyhow, read through a good bit of Freedom Flight on the train into the office this morning. Couldn't find any references to any additional systems or descriptions of how one gets from one location to another.
Thank you kindly, that was a big help.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Well, you have to accept it as canon, Kalfor. It's an offically licensed product by Origin and also happens to be made by Chris Roberts.
 

Ghost

Emperor
Originally posted by LeHah
Well, you have to accept it as canon, Kalfor. It's an offically licensed product by Origin and also happens to be made by Chris Roberts.
I thought that was made by Digital Anvil.
 

Shane

Spaceman
Originally posted by Quarto
Shane, Oberan, like many other End Run locations, was already marked on the WCP map :).

I vaguely recall a book reference to one of the clan leaders being unhappy because his systems were almost all at the frontlines. Anyway, we just don't have enough info to attempt to map out clan ownership :(.
I didn't have the orignal map here in the office. Thought I might have missed it.

Fleet action p. 13 The clan leaders are trying to figure out what to do. Jukaga mentions that Tlamak suggested they fall back from the outer colonies. Jukaga mnetions the Kilrathi couldn't take that kind of stain on their honor, nor could the Caxki Clan, which owns many of the frontier worlds.

Listing what clans have which systems would be useful for fan fic writers and anyone doing fan made games regarding the Kilrathi Civil war. Unfortunatley it isn't clear what the thinking was for how things were divided up. I would think the Emperor's Clan would have the area around Kilrah, and the more powerful clans would be closer to the seat of power than the weaker ones, but I can see other arguments for disposition. Hell, I think you and I had them :) We always remained civil though. How ya been?
 

Shane

Spaceman
Originally posted by Ghost


I thought that was made by Digital Anvil.
Directed by Chris Roberts

Written by Chris Roberts and Kevin Droney

Digital Anvil was the production company.
 

Kalfor

Spaceman
WC movie and games is not the same
period

if you think they are, explain to me the difference I said
its simply what I said. Roberts wanted to use it, but couldnt all of it cause he didnt have the rights

an on the systems part
there is a difference between planet and system
I saw a few systems with the same name going from I to IV (and maybe more)
same with the mention below of Ella Minora and Majora (which Im not sure of, but I understand its 2 planets in the Ella system) and Loki IV (which is the 4th planet in Loki system)
 

Eder

Mr. Standoff
Excerpt from How to fail miserably at making a point, chapter 14:

Originally posted by Kalfor
WC movie and games is not the same
period
Anyway, Chris Roberts says it is, and on WC related subjects, I'll take his word over yours any day, as I'm sure most sensible people will.

Word of advice: Going around shouting "P2/WCM is not WC!" makes you look stupid. The WC universe is full of inconsistencies. It's easier to just learn to live with it... :rolleyes:

--Eder
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Shane says:
Hell, I think you and I had them We always remained civil though. How ya been?
Just fine, Shane :). Good to see you around, too. And I still think all the noble clans own bits of Kilrah ;).


Regarding the Tesla-Enigma double-jump, it turns out my memory was pretty foggy after all. The jump starts in Tesla, and ends in Enigma, so Blake is a very good idea for the in-between point.

Enigma long jumps... I see your point about Landreich being unimportant, LOAF, so I agree about not putting in any jumps that way. As for the jump to a Kilrathi system in Epsilon, this is a difficult case because we know so little about the place. One idea, I suppose, would be Kabla Meth - for a system housing a sector HQ, it seems a tad isolated, so maybe this would explain why the sector HQ was placed there. And of course, the difficulties of finding a jump point in Enigma (like the one for K'Tithrak Mang) would explain why Confed didn't immediately use this link to strike against this sector HQ. Oh, BTW, before I forget -there's an alternative spelling for Epsilon Prime - "Epsilon Prima". Actually, I can't say that I've seen Epsilon Prime in any source...

Avalon sounds like a good spot for that deep-space point. The question is, though, where in Avalon? One could argue that the Retros' seeming restriction to Gemini would mean that this place would have to be close to the sector border, but at the same time, Avalon is just the sort of spot that the Retros would want to expand into, so a more faraway location also makes sense.

The eight noble clans own *everything* -- and Kilrathi derive their names from locations. Were you a commoner born on Ghorah Khar, you'd be Quarto nar Ghorah Khar. The eight noble clans rule the empire, but they were all created *before* the Kilrathi reached space -- so Caxki/Ki'ra/Ragitagha/etc must all be places local to Kilrah. Other names (nar Val, nar Tsal, etc) probably come from planets...
Ah, I misunderstood what you were asking, so my reply was totally off-topic - I thought you were talking about showing the political divisions on the map. Yeah, it's a good idea to fill out those blank systems with clan names. How do we determine where to place them, though? T'Agg A'Brenn would be easy (in Kilrah, as close as possible to T'lan Meth), and a few others might be too, but not all of them...
BTW, do we know what exactly the different honorifics imply? I mean, would jaq Rhang be the same as nar Rhang?

Finally, Munro. Hmm, that jump straight to Kilrah complicates things :(. Especially when the Munro route doesn't even seem to be taken into account during the BoT campaign. Well, anyway, it looks as though Munro is most likely in Vega (can that place get any more crowded?!). There are three distinct possibilities for the Confed link - Weslyn, Proxima, or Krieger. Either way, try to place it in Douglas quad, since it's the least crowded place in Vega. BTW, this reminds me - should there also be a direct link from Freya to Kilrah? That's the way it is in WC3, but the WCP map only has the Freya-H'rissith-Kilrah link.
 

Wedge009

Rogue Leader
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
Hari Space: 1,000 abandoned systems -- should we make up a map for it?
I say no. Aside from the systems already known, of course. Think about it - all the systems in the 12 main sectors (the ones on the original WCP map) add up to about 530 systems (and that's with some of the additions already made. If you really, really, want to triple your workload then I can't stop you, but I wouldn't advise it. :)

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
Loki VI/Loki
I would have thought Loki VI referred to the sixth planet in the Loki system (as Earth/Terra could be referred to as Sol III), not a new system altogether. That they've used Roman numerals on some repeated system names makes it confusing for us.

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
Academy System Bucket
Gorath System - Kilrathi
Candar System -- Possible Confed. Questionable.
Decided to read the Academy manual yesterday, and was surprised to read that Leech missiles could disabled a capship's shields. Guess I just assumed it was a mistake when I first tried the game - I was even more surprised to find that it was true. Felt really good wiping out a Ralatha with guns.

Anyway, I noticed that the author says he lost his wingman to a swarm of Sartha in the Gwynedd system... sounds like Shadow's situation, don't you think? Interesting to that the author also mentions that he "barely survived a grueling dogfight with a lone Drakhri flown by Khajja the Fang" in the Vega campaign. Despite the fact that Khajja flew a Krant and not a Drakhri, the author sounds a bit like Blair doesn't he?

Still he doesn't sound very passionate in the section describing the Strakha and how they destroyed the Tiger's Claw. My main point in this post is this: "I personally witnessed the demise of the TCS Viper when it came under fire from an attacking Ralatha destroyer in the Gwynedd sector." Why sector? Can we assume it to be a mistake? Especially when there are systems and sectors sharing names (and the system is not necessarily a major 'hub' in the sector).

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
Privateer
Mjolnar System -- Confed
Sheol System -- Confed. Jump from Baroda. Has unstable jump points leading to unknown locations.
Baroda System -- jumps to Shoel.
Ceti Prime -- Confed homeworld.
If you got Mjolnar from the reference to a Mjolnarian stout, then I'd advise against it - Mjolnar is an agricultural(?) planet in the Ragnarok system.

Shoel or Sheol? From memory, I think it was Sheol. Make sure it's right before adding. :)

Who had Ceti Prime as their homeworld?

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
HANDBOOK
Plenty of those systems are already on the map. I assume you just dumped the all names anyway, right?

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
Enigma Sector -- aka Gwynedd Sector, Niven Sector, K'Tithrak Mang Sector
Gwynedd Sector from the Academy manual?

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
Epsilon Sector -- aka Antares Sector, aka Firekka Sector, aka Deneb Sector
I don't think it was ever referred to as Firekkan Sector - I always remember SM2 putting Firekka in the Antares Sector.
 

Wedge009

Rogue Leader
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
But then: Action Station states that the Confederation "is hundreds, thousands of systems" -- do we fill in blank spaces with things like Kentari or Leydos?
Dunno where those names come from. In any case, as I already said, my best count comes to about 530 systems (from the 12 main sectors).
 
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