ELTEE
Vice Admiral
That, sir, is a crying shame. Imagine what that would look like filling your monitor...
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- Thread starter Klavs81
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That, sir, is a crying shame. Imagine what that would look like filling your monitor...
Dundradal
Frog Blast the Vent Core!
ChrisReid
Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
LOAF meant meters in that post. Victory Streak does already (correctly) say 22,000 meters, not kilometers.
Flashpoint
Rear Admiral
What's there to stop there being 2 classes of this ship?
A normal dreadnought and a massive one. It would solve a lot of arguments I think.
A normal dreadnought and a massive one. It would solve a lot of arguments I think.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Well, there's plenty of classes of dreadnoughts (some, like the Sivar, smaller than the average capship)... but I fail to see what problems could we possibly solve by splitting one class into two, when there's not even the slightest shred of evidence that would support such claims - and plenty of evidence to the contrary (WC3 script and the WC3 novel).
Besides, at the end of the day, this really comes down to what people are willing to accept. You can come up with twenty different classes of dreadnoughts if you like, but if one of them is 22,000 metres in length, you'll still have a bunch of people arbitrarily claiming that 22,000 metres is "unrealistic", whatever that means.
Besides, at the end of the day, this really comes down to what people are willing to accept. You can come up with twenty different classes of dreadnoughts if you like, but if one of them is 22,000 metres in length, you'll still have a bunch of people arbitrarily claiming that 22,000 metres is "unrealistic", whatever that means.
Flashpoint
Rear Admiral
All I was saying is that one absolutely massive ship is not unrealistic if you take the Sivar into account, IMO
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Well, nothing - and we even know that the Kilrathi have several similar looking ships of different sizes... including a carrier, a blockade runner and a transport. The question is, though, what's to *cause* there to be an additional 2,200 meter dreadnaught? We don't see it anywhere and it isn't part of any story...
Flashpoint
Rear Admiral
Pure speculation, but with the Kilrathi penchant for the grandiose, I would think it was a dreadnought flagship, for Thrakath or the emperor or something like that.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
That's the 22,000 meter H'varr Kann that we're talking about (... and 22,000 is a lot more grandiose than 2,200 
).
).Flashpoint
Rear Admiral
All these 2's are confusing me!!
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Jason_Ryock
Vice Admiral
Other (smaller) capital ships! Imagine it carrying not just sixteen divisions of marines, but transports to launch them all. It ferries the large transports to the jump point, where it launches the transports, that fly to the planet, and launch shuttles and dropships to land the troops!
Maybe it carries destroyers or cruisers - in The Force Unleased (which deserves the same reputation as the Aces Club as far as Star Wars canon goes) they show the Death Star docking Star Destroyers inside it - maybe there is a full repair bay for a capital ship sized vessel inside the dreadnaught.
Dundradal
Frog Blast the Vent Core!
This idea doesn't actually sound too bad. Considering the mauling that Imperial Marines got at McAuliffe in '34 and then at Vukar Tag in '67 having a massive heavily armed and armored invasion vessel sounds like it might be a good idea. We know it has lots of heavy and light turrets as well as the ability to launch large capship missiles.
This would allow the Empire to not have to maintain as many troop transport ships for their ground forces as well as provide a mobile command/refit/supply center for large invasions.
gr1mre4per
Rear Admiral
I find it interesting that this topic still sends sparks flying around everywhere, even though this case should have been shut years ago with the novel using 22,000 meters as the size. Its a tough thing to have to accept for those people who think of whats realistic, even me, but we have to accept what it written down and that is that. Also its a sci-fi game, we don't have to apply the laws of physics here!
My personal opinion, although irrelevant now, is that there was a typo of some sort in Victory Streak, whether it be with the size, or weight. Compared to the Kilrathi Carrier of the time, the canon dreadnought is near 24x the length, but only 3x the weight. Also, in a 1vs1 with a Tallahassee cruiser, I would favour the cruiser. The menouverability and speed advantages would allow the cruiser to move into a position to bring all weapons to bear onto the dreadnought whereas the dreadnought would only be able to fire 2 to 4 turrets back. 38 turrets spread over 22KM does not give much overlap and the cruiser would simply be out of range of the majority of the dreadnoughts turrets. I wouldnt like to get in close though!
I do like the idea about it being a mobile shipyard of sorts, with the ability to dock smaller cap ships. Although non-canon, its a very interesting idea!
My personal opinion, although irrelevant now, is that there was a typo of some sort in Victory Streak, whether it be with the size, or weight. Compared to the Kilrathi Carrier of the time, the canon dreadnought is near 24x the length, but only 3x the weight. Also, in a 1vs1 with a Tallahassee cruiser, I would favour the cruiser. The menouverability and speed advantages would allow the cruiser to move into a position to bring all weapons to bear onto the dreadnought whereas the dreadnought would only be able to fire 2 to 4 turrets back. 38 turrets spread over 22KM does not give much overlap and the cruiser would simply be out of range of the majority of the dreadnoughts turrets. I wouldnt like to get in close though!
I do like the idea about it being a mobile shipyard of sorts, with the ability to dock smaller cap ships. Although non-canon, its a very interesting idea!
gevatter Lars
Vice Admiral
Interesting idea of using it as some kind of shipyard, mobile command center and troop transport.
In that function it woulnd't see so many battles as it would move into a system after its secured.
Still with its size a Confed cruiser could fit into the hangarbay and fire freely without much they could do about it.
As a battleship the size and bad defence makes it just a big target.
Also no everything written down is right, like the mistake done in the WC4 novel vs. the game where they confused ship classes or some fighters didn't even make an appearance while Blair had to fly these figthers in the game.
22km wasn't what we have seen in the game or the cutscenes. So for myself, I go with the 2,2km but again its my personal choice.
In that function it woulnd't see so many battles as it would move into a system after its secured.
Still with its size a Confed cruiser could fit into the hangarbay and fire freely without much they could do about it.
As a battleship the size and bad defence makes it just a big target.
Also no everything written down is right, like the mistake done in the WC4 novel vs. the game where they confused ship classes or some fighters didn't even make an appearance while Blair had to fly these figthers in the game.
22km wasn't what we have seen in the game or the cutscenes. So for myself, I go with the 2,2km but again its my personal choice.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Oh good, someone resurrected this thread.
I have a good, long post in this thread about exactly why deciding on 2,200 doesn't make sense. Here is a link - http://www.crius.net/zone/showpost.php?p=362340&postcount=40.
So lets ward off something sillier:
Seriously, people: stop saying things like this. Please take no offense*, but the 'personal' thing makes everyone with half a brain grind their teeth and want to strangle you. (* - Do you see what I did here? I preceded my horribly offensive statement with a plithy phrase that somehow suggests you aren't allowed to reply honestly. It's annoying as hell, right?)
Simply saying that something is your choice doesn't somehow rise you above a debate, especially in a thread where everyone else is thinking all this out in argument form. It's not in any way, shape or form a get-out-of-thought free card. Surely you can't possibly think joining a two-page argument where people are saying things like 'here's exactly what the game says, here's what the book says, etc.' and insisting you believe otherwise because of *no reason at all* is somehow kosher?
Yes, there is some acceptable level of indefensible opinion... but it's a *strict* measure, not a broad one. Ordinarly people respect others opinions about things like whether or not God exists and what kind of toppings they like on their hamburgers. It's not some overall concept of holy opinion-crediting that can be brought out at any time... and abusing it as such endangers those existing privledges (You like ketchup?! Buddy, have I got words for you...).
I think we're all smart enough to take this to the logical concluding counter-example -- blah blah blah, my opinion is that cats can fly anbd the sky is green.
The second instance isn't really any of that, though... it's just an instance where someone thinks it's a good idea to stick 'opinion' somewhere to avoid debate... which, noble as it might be here, is ultimately what I want to discourage. The fact of the matter is that there's not any personal opinion about it - there either was or was not a typo... and we either know or do not know. (And here's the period on that: we do not know.)
(In all seriousness, I honestly do mean no offense here... it's just a pet peeve I wanted to yell about. On to more interesting things...)
It's a good thought, but it occurs to me (now, finally) that we should step back and consider the metanarrative. What's the point of having the giant dreadnaught in the Wing Commander III story in the first place? It's a representation of Thrakhath -- the basis of the character is that he's obsessed, megalomaniacal, vain... and ultimately impotent (yes, even literally, thanks Dr. Forstchen). The idea with the dreadnaught is that he *would* have to build himself an impossibly huge flagship... and, as a kicker, it should be largely useless.
You bright up something poignant here that you may not recognize. There's a very specific reason those Star Destroyers show up inside the Death Star in Force Unleashed. In the years since the original Star Wars, fans have (famously) done the math and pointed out in no uncertain terms that (just like the dreadnaught!) the Death Star is... impossibly, pointlessly *huge*.
You know what happened? The same thing, to Wing Commander and Star Wars. George Lucas and Chris Roberts (or... whoever their actual production equivalent was - we'll use the figureheads) built their 'technology' around what was cool and made sense for their stories rather than what geeks would eventually decide was and was not inside the boundaries of "realism" in their fantasy universes. In all likelyhood nobody stopped to think that a moon is really really really really really really big and that 22,000 meters is really really really long.
... so in the case of Star Wars, where those geeks have had a huge impact on (and in some cases literally are) the current generation of people writing the "canon", we see things like Star Destroyers being docked in the Death Star. A hah! That's what it's for!, we're supposed to say, it wasn't just a hangar for three TIE Fighters!
Maybe we'll see that with the dreadnaught someday... if we live long enough.
You're talking about two different things here, though, and neither of them are straight examples of the book being specifically *wrong*:
- The different fighters in the book. This isn't Mr. Ohlander accidentally forgetting about *every single fighter in the game* somehow and using old ones instead; it's a 100% conscious artistic choice (which makes for a better novel, if a worse tie-in).
- The 'Concordia' confusion. For those unfamiliar, this is *not* the book's mistake... it's the game script (and finished product!), which incorrectly labeled the Lexington as a "Concordia class" ship. Now fans have danced very carefully to make 'Concordia class' a legitimate-if-confusing name for the ship... but that's all retcon, and the book (which had neither the benefit of later-years worth of fan speculation nor the ability to defy the script in the first place) deserves at least as much if not more consideration in that respect.
... but more to the point, your point lacks the necessary 'starter'. In both of these cases, the debate appears because the game doesn't match the book (either directly or indirectly). You *need* that 'cause' before you can argue to "discredit" the book, else there'd be no basis for anything at all anywhere. When all is said and done, the dreadnaught in the book matches the dreadnaught in the game and the dreadnaught in the manual... it *confirms* them, even. There's no contradiction there to throw out False Colors, much as you might want to. The only thing it doesn't match is the Wing Commander Aces Club dreadnaught in your mind... and that, my friend, is not a criticism of the book.
Doesn't it fight (and quickly do in) the Ajax in the Sol mission?
I have a good, long post in this thread about exactly why deciding on 2,200 doesn't make sense. Here is a link - http://www.crius.net/zone/showpost.php?p=362340&postcount=40.
So lets ward off something sillier:
Seriously, people: stop saying things like this. Please take no offense*, but the 'personal' thing makes everyone with half a brain grind their teeth and want to strangle you. (* - Do you see what I did here? I preceded my horribly offensive statement with a plithy phrase that somehow suggests you aren't allowed to reply honestly. It's annoying as hell, right?)
Simply saying that something is your choice doesn't somehow rise you above a debate, especially in a thread where everyone else is thinking all this out in argument form. It's not in any way, shape or form a get-out-of-thought free card. Surely you can't possibly think joining a two-page argument where people are saying things like 'here's exactly what the game says, here's what the book says, etc.' and insisting you believe otherwise because of *no reason at all* is somehow kosher?
Yes, there is some acceptable level of indefensible opinion... but it's a *strict* measure, not a broad one. Ordinarly people respect others opinions about things like whether or not God exists and what kind of toppings they like on their hamburgers. It's not some overall concept of holy opinion-crediting that can be brought out at any time... and abusing it as such endangers those existing privledges (You like ketchup?! Buddy, have I got words for you...).
I think we're all smart enough to take this to the logical concluding counter-example -- blah blah blah, my opinion is that cats can fly anbd the sky is green.
The second instance isn't really any of that, though... it's just an instance where someone thinks it's a good idea to stick 'opinion' somewhere to avoid debate... which, noble as it might be here, is ultimately what I want to discourage. The fact of the matter is that there's not any personal opinion about it - there either was or was not a typo... and we either know or do not know. (And here's the period on that: we do not know.)
(In all seriousness, I honestly do mean no offense here... it's just a pet peeve I wanted to yell about. On to more interesting things...)
It's a good thought, but it occurs to me (now, finally) that we should step back and consider the metanarrative. What's the point of having the giant dreadnaught in the Wing Commander III story in the first place? It's a representation of Thrakhath -- the basis of the character is that he's obsessed, megalomaniacal, vain... and ultimately impotent (yes, even literally, thanks Dr. Forstchen). The idea with the dreadnaught is that he *would* have to build himself an impossibly huge flagship... and, as a kicker, it should be largely useless.
You bright up something poignant here that you may not recognize. There's a very specific reason those Star Destroyers show up inside the Death Star in Force Unleashed. In the years since the original Star Wars, fans have (famously) done the math and pointed out in no uncertain terms that (just like the dreadnaught!) the Death Star is... impossibly, pointlessly *huge*.
You know what happened? The same thing, to Wing Commander and Star Wars. George Lucas and Chris Roberts (or... whoever their actual production equivalent was - we'll use the figureheads) built their 'technology' around what was cool and made sense for their stories rather than what geeks would eventually decide was and was not inside the boundaries of "realism" in their fantasy universes. In all likelyhood nobody stopped to think that a moon is really really really really really really big and that 22,000 meters is really really really long.
... so in the case of Star Wars, where those geeks have had a huge impact on (and in some cases literally are) the current generation of people writing the "canon", we see things like Star Destroyers being docked in the Death Star. A hah! That's what it's for!, we're supposed to say, it wasn't just a hangar for three TIE Fighters!
Maybe we'll see that with the dreadnaught someday... if we live long enough.
You're talking about two different things here, though, and neither of them are straight examples of the book being specifically *wrong*:
- The different fighters in the book. This isn't Mr. Ohlander accidentally forgetting about *every single fighter in the game* somehow and using old ones instead; it's a 100% conscious artistic choice (which makes for a better novel, if a worse tie-in).
- The 'Concordia' confusion. For those unfamiliar, this is *not* the book's mistake... it's the game script (and finished product!), which incorrectly labeled the Lexington as a "Concordia class" ship. Now fans have danced very carefully to make 'Concordia class' a legitimate-if-confusing name for the ship... but that's all retcon, and the book (which had neither the benefit of later-years worth of fan speculation nor the ability to defy the script in the first place) deserves at least as much if not more consideration in that respect.
... but more to the point, your point lacks the necessary 'starter'. In both of these cases, the debate appears because the game doesn't match the book (either directly or indirectly). You *need* that 'cause' before you can argue to "discredit" the book, else there'd be no basis for anything at all anywhere. When all is said and done, the dreadnaught in the book matches the dreadnaught in the game and the dreadnaught in the manual... it *confirms* them, even. There's no contradiction there to throw out False Colors, much as you might want to. The only thing it doesn't match is the Wing Commander Aces Club dreadnaught in your mind... and that, my friend, is not a criticism of the book.
Doesn't it fight (and quickly do in) the Ajax in the Sol mission?
frostytheplebe
Seventh Part of the Seal
I second this as a logical standpoint. A ship built specifically for the Royal house. 1 maybe 2 built. Why wouldn't they have anymore? Well I doubt the Kilrathi Empire is in that much better shape during WC3 then Confed. Backwater ships taking to the front lines, older models making new light etc. They probably didn't have enough resources to afford multiple massive ships like that.
Plus, if Thrakath were smart, he'd probably submit to the same thinking as Admiral Yamamoto Don't waste your money on a massive capital ship, when you could use the materials to build a thousand fighters. Which was his argument against the HIJMS Yamoto. Or Zero's argument against the Midway "This tub gets hulled then what? Confed puts all it's eggs into one little basket..."
Sorry I know thats all over the place.