Let the music play

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
Needaham45 said:
And if this is pretentious, then I want to know what you call some other things I've seen posted here... I didn't think it was that bad. Regardless of yours, or anyone else's personal feelings, I feel I'm well within my rights here. I have had people use my music before without my knowledge, and I have no problems with people doing what they will usually, as long as I know about it--I just wanted to make sure nothing unfortionate happened to me or my art, and I think, as we do all deal with artistic content here, that we should all be able to appreciate that.
This is going in circles. I've already addressed the entirety of the above.

This is a public forum. Anyone can see what I'm writing here, and what I post. ANYONE. Say I post this package with the score and mp3 on a website, and supply the url here. Some jerk comes along not even related to the WC community, takes my score,
But you haven't posted your music. And no silly little disclaimer will protect it from unscrupulous people if you do.

It is a real fear today, especially in a public forum such as this, and something that does worry me, as people have disrespected my work before.
Everybody is well aware of what happens. That's exactly why we all know it doesn't do any good to post warnings to people who'd do that sort of thing. If it were actually any sort of worry of yours, you just wouldn't post the music. The one and only purpose and result of posting such a warning is to inflate the importance of your work and make yourself sound fancy.
 

Needaham45

Spaceman
Halman said:
You're a frazzing *undergrad* at a school none of us likely knows learning from a nobody.
You know what, if you want to flame me, that's fine. Last I checked, it's against the rules, but whatever--my problem is my teachers. They're wonderful, and far from being nobodys--I'm not going to bother supplying a list of accomplishments they have as it's not important. You can be a jerk to me all you want if you have an issue, but please, lay off my professors who I respect very much.
 

Halman

PSY-YI-YI
Your failure to list your school or your professors comes off as tacit agreement with me. Outside of a few stuffed shirt music majors, they've probably done nothing more to impress anyone than rewrite yankee doodle with a transposed note. These august personages are such masters of the musicians craft, they were unable to support themselves doing it professionaly.
(That is what a flame looks like)
 

Maj.Striker

Swabbie
Banned
Down boy...

:)

Needaham, Chris and Halman are both quite correct. You did sound about as arrogant and pretentious as you possibly could be. I don't know if that was your intent but it certainly came off that way. (ala a sort of "Look everyone I know everything about everything!" kind of thing). The copyright disclaimer however was extremely in poor taste though because you were talking about sending your music to a longstanding and much respected member of the CIC community, Ace. Telling Ace not to "steal" your music is like telling the Pope not to gamble. It's utterly unnecessary. You weren't posting your music here, you were sending it to Ace. It was insulting and arrogant to throw out a big disclaimer.
 

Needaham45

Spaceman
As I tried to explain, I didn't mean it in bad taste, and it wasn't directed towards ace, it was a general statement. I'm sorry it came off poorly as that was not in any way my intention. I have no desire to offend anyone, and to some extent I'm surprised it became such a big issue. I'm sorry.

As for the arrogance, a lot of people read me as arrogant when they first meet me. As they get to know me they see I am really a very modest, humble person. I'm my own worst critic--I think it's necessary in order for me to get better, and I will find more flaws in my work than anyone else. I think people mistake the fact that I'm opinionated, fairly knowledgable for my age, and that I have such a passion and love for music as arrogance sometimes. When they get to know me, put it into perspective, see where it's coming from, and learn that it isn't arrogance, they see I'm not so bad. Again, I maintain it's a program note, and supposed to sound lofty and put the piece in a very good light. I can supply a list of critique of the piece, but that doesn't belong in a program note.

Halman, the reason I didn't list the accomplishments is because I thought it was unnecessary. My point isn't what they did, just that it is in bad taste to attack them at all, but if you insist...

I attend Montclair State University as a Music Education/Music Theory and Composition double major. The university is not well known outside of New Jersey as we do not do professional recordings and focus our program on live performance, but we are playing the same works that North Texas and Eastman are doing with our Symphonic Band and Wind Symphony, two of the highest ranked bands in the nation. The music education teaching program is one of the most prestigious and best known in the state--graduates actually have a 100% job placement upon graduation, and a degree in music education from Montclair is virtually all you need in New Jersey and surrounding areas for respect and a job as a music teacher. We just hosted the Colliegate Band Director's National Association Conference this past year (CBDNA). We also can boast the collection of the original Harry Partch instruments--the only collection of its kind in the world.

Most of the professors at MSU play professionally and come in from NYC. They are more than capible of sustaining a performance carreer, but want to teach as well to pass on the art form and their wisdom. I think it's noble. The idea that "those who can't, teach" is often times not the case.

My primary teacher is David Singer. His accomplishments in brief are as follows--he is the principal clarinetist with the Orpheus Chamber Ensemble which is one of the highest ranked chamber orchestras today. He also serves as co-principal of the LA Chamber Orchestra, another highly ranked chamber group. Among other schools, he graduated from Curtis. He has been on over 70 recordings, and won Grammies for two of them. He's ranked as one of the top clarinetists today.

Dr. Mary-Ann Craig, director of bands is ranked the 3rd best euphonium player in the world. She is president of the International Tuba-Euphonium Association. She is interviewed in multiple countries regularly about her conducting, and is an honorary professor at Moscow Conservatory (MSU is the only school in the US with a foriegn exchange set up with Moscow Conservatory, mostly because of what Dr. Craig did to encourage wind bands in Russia). She's also the New Jersey State Chair for the College Band Directors National Association and the National Association of College Wind and Percussion Instructors.

Professor Paul Hostetter is the conductor of the orchestra. He is extremely well known in NYC for conducting work on Broadway, with the New York Opera, and various other groups. He also conducts the New York Youth Symphony and Colonial Symphony--he was offered conductorship of the lastest Andrew Llyod Webber musical but turned it down because of how excited he was to be teaching at MSU. Professor Kunkel is in charge of the jazz program (although it is small). He is the New Jersey President of IAJE (International Association of Jazz Educators) and is one of the highest respected jazz educators in the nation. If you are a music teacher in New Jersey or the surrounding area, you personally know our Graduate Music Education department head, Lisa Delorenzo, who has more music educator experience and knowledge than most people. She makes your teaching style her business in order to convey it to her students and give us as broad a picture of music education as possible. Our Department Head, Dr. Robert Aldridge has won the Guggenhiem grant for his composition. Patrick Burns is one of the top ranked band and wind symphony composers today. I could go on, but as I felt all this was unnecessary as it is, I won't. If you really want me to, I will however.

My point is if you want to knock me, be my guest. Don't attack my professors who aren't hear to even defend themselves. It's a somewhat cowardly, immature, and innappropriate thing to do.
 

Needaham45

Spaceman
Oh--I have something I just thought about ace, PeteyG--It's just the beginnings of a work for band that's more intricate and a departure from my usual style. I'd like to see what you think of that as well--my comp teacher approved because it was something different, but I don't know if different is really better. It's my first time writing in an open key.
 

PeteyG

I can have an avatar now
In all fairness to Needaham, anyone who thinks the description he gave his piece is somehow overly pretentious is unfamiliar with the area of modern youth-level wind band composition. That description would fit right in alongside pieces for high school bands by James Swearingen, Robert W. Smith (aka the Big Names). It's important to consider the audience for program notes like that; the university wind ensemble I play with, for example, does not play pieces with program notes like that. High school bands do. All the time.

I have received the stuff (thanks!), but haven't had a chance to look at it yet.

I was not offended at all by Needaham asking for extra discretion in not distributing his piece. Even though I have some slight amount of music cred, I am not a pillar of the community like Ace is. We are also talking about the score. People who write band music don't make the money from selling the recorded music itself, they make it from selling the score and the individual parts. And charging an arm and a leg for replacement parts for the damn high school tenor saxophone players who always lose their music folder on the way home from school. Needaham could actually stand to lose some lunch money if the filez got out there.

I've been asked to keep copyrighted and sensitive files to myself and not distribute them before; in situations like this it really is best to not leave that sort of thing unsaid.
 

PopsiclePete

Mission programmer
PeteyG said:
That description would fit right in alongside pieces for high school bands by James Swearingen, [...]
Ahhhhh, Swearingen. Brings back old memories. His pieces all have an instantly recognisable style, easy to master and fun to play (for an high school band) :)
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
I've been asked to keep copyrighted and sensitive files to myself and not distribute them before; in situations like this it really is best to not leave that sort of thing unsaid.
Signing an NDA is an ordinary thing. Hearing a teenager bitch about how we need to respect his special weirdo lunix rights before we can listen to the music that he wants us to hear in the first place while bashing our group in the same breath isn't. He's gone.
 

PeteyG

I can have an avatar now
I'd be willing to bet the Pioneer folks are doing the exact same thing with people they sare their 3d models and binaries with. And we all know they are huge jerks with a real financial interest in preventing the wide distribution of their source art (I'm being sarcastic).

But yeah.
1. Program notes for high school band
2. It's the full score, not just an mp3
3. Actual potential for lost money
 

PeteyG

I can have an avatar now
PopsiclePete said:
Ahhhhh, Swearingen. Brings back old memories. His pieces all have an instantly recognisable style, easy to master and fun to play (for an high school band) :)
Dude, totally. I remember the first time I had to play a weird time was in a Swearingen piece... 7/8 in In All It's Glory (I think). Good times.
 

PeteyG

I can have an avatar now
Bandit LOAF said:
You're being stupid.
I respectfully disagree. I believe I did a good job expressing my view, and backing it up.

This doesn't seem like a huge deal to me, though. Needaham is one of my favorite contributors to the Wing Commander community, and I'm sure he'll be back, pumping out more phat Wing Commander tracks.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Your view was idiotic and served only to express exactly what the problem with Needaham's post was: *everyones* art is important to them (even Pioneer, whatever the importance of that example is). The rest of us, however, don't regard the community as a pack of thieves who need some inept Slashdot-language strewn lesson about digital rights.

Now I will do a good job of banning you.
 

Maj.Striker

Swabbie
Banned
PeteyG said:
This doesn't seem like a huge deal to me, though. Needaham is one of my favorite contributors to the Wing Commander community, and I'm sure he'll be back, pumping out more phat Wing Commander tracks.
Really? I've only heard one score that I remember coming from Needaham...mind pointing me to various tracks?
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
Maj.Striker said:
Really? I've only heard one score that I remember coming from Needaham...mind pointing me to various tracks?
When I think of Needaham, I think of that one Standoff score, and also how he shows up to argue about music theory whenever he gets a chance.

PeteyG said:
I've been asked to keep copyrighted and sensitive files to myself and not distribute them before; in situations like this it really is best to not leave that sort of thing unsaid.
I wish people would absorb a lot of what I said rather than just pass over me because I'm particularly blunt. Everyone who generates content makes some reference to protection of the material or whatever. That's fine. In this particular case though, it was just really super silly to do so, since he wasn't even posting any music. He was sending stuff directly to ace and pete, and then he decided to grandstand in front of everyone with CAPITAL WORDS and fancy ACRONYMS to demonstrate how his whatever was super important.

None of us non-music people know what a program note is or the context in which they're written. Now I've learned they're apparently supposed to be big arrogant BS piles. So you take that, add in another pet peeve of mine (people who've been online for a long time not knowing how to do simple internet tasks like getting a fairly small file to another person), not to mention Needaham's history in threads like this, and by the time you get to that annoying copyright warning at the end, I just couldn't not reply to that.
 

PopsiclePete

Mission programmer
Maj.Striker said:
Really? I've only heard one score that I remember coming from Needaham...mind pointing me to various tracks?
Unknown Enemy cutscene and in-flight music, and Standoff's cutscenes music.
 

Edx

Spaceman
ace said:
I'm not sure why I'm coming off like such an ogre, but I assume I was right all along and that whenever someone mentions Music Theory (which wasn't even me) everyone gets very defensive.

I just don't understand why some of these points are being argued. No one is suggesting that a person must or should learn anything about Music Theory before they begin the journey of musical self-discovery.

<snip>

It never even happens like that anyway; children will always have their first experiences sitting at their grandmother's piano or some equivelant. My suggestion was just that he should try the free music program, figure out what notes make what sounds, and work from there.
Yes, that is very important, which is why I suggest he get a keyboard. I think an instrument to play in notes is far more interesting and you'll learn far better than clicking notes in a program no matter what sounds you are using. This is why I asked how much money he wants to spend and how serious he is. There are things he can get for free if he just wants to know what notes sound like. Soundfonts for example. I didnt reccomend that because he said he said he doesnt mind spending some money on this.

But if thats what you meant as well like you say here, thats certianly not how it sounded. You said ""learn how to write music, and then worry about the other stuff later". Thats compltely different to saying someone should noodle around on a piano for fun or something, to "figure out what notes make what sounds".

I guess the core of the matter is that it's easy to make music. It's an important element in everybody's lives and it's the easiest art form to participate in.
Ah yes, it is "easy" in theory. But it isnt "easy" to make good music, or probably more importantly, it isnt "easy to make music people want to listen to". Thats why not everyone does it, and why not everyone that does it is successfull at it. And I know from experience that some people just do not have a musical bone in their body! :D

I can understand that people will feel, at least, indifference towards and, at most, hostility towards a comprehensive collection of knowledge and guidelies that seem to have little relevance with the music that they love. Nobody likes being told what they can and can't do with their own personal art and when you start taking things that seriously it just plain takes the fun out of things. Who wants to study up on a hobby?
I dont know if you are directing this at me or Needaham, but if it is me then I should say I do agree with you here. I really do. I think people SHOULD learn theory and they should learn how to write music. I am just now learning how to read music. Its taking a long time because Im used to doing everything by ear and seeing the notes on the piano roll in Cubase.

People dont need to learn music theory in order to make music but, and if that sounds like I just contradicted myself, what I mean is you do have to learn music theory sooner or later if you want to emulate "the music that [you] love". So if you love big David Arnold scores like Stargate or Independence day or John Willams you gotta learn how their music is put together if you want to know how to create the same effect in your own music.

With today's technology everybody has this amazing ability to hear their heart's voice instantly, so even less knowledge is required. People would hardly have made a stink about having to know how to write music down on paper back when it was required to write music down on paper.
I dont see this connection you are drawing. Sure, if you can read and write music you can look at score manuscripts and see how the music is put together. You can read music theory books about 4 part harmony, orchestration or counterpoint and it will be much easier to learn. But that doesnt mean you cant learn the same concept another way. Sure it will be a lot harder, but most of the basics you can easily pick up by ear.

Music now plays itself so trial, error and luck can easily guide and educate far easier than before. This is fine, great, dandy and perfectly acceptable. Maybe you could even call it art.

Well I probably am an ogre, but I just don't think it's art.
Believe me Ive heard enough crappy pieces of music to know not everything is art. I think you misunderstand what I mean by art. Its the craft of music thats "art", not everything someone makes is art. Second, Ive heard wonderfull music by people that are not formally trained, that cannot read music and that worked basically by ear. And I have heard really boring music by people that have music degrees. And if you like your music, and other people like your music, who really cares if you cant read and write it?

in fact, it's indisputable that the number of great composers and great works of art has substantially declined and will continue to do so. Is technology to blame for this decline, or has is it a combination of the prevalant ambivalence and general malaise towards intellectualizing an art form that had been advancing and evolving as a direct result of such intellectualization for centuries?
Ive heard the same thing said about artists, actors and films and TV and its exactly the same argument.

Where are all the Marolin Monrows, the Gene kellys, or even Alfred Hitchcocks? Where are the Mozarts, the Beethovens? Where are the Da Vincies, or Michelangelos or Picassos?

Ive heard the same argument about the downfall of film making just because there are thousands of cable channels making crap TV shows. But this is exactly the same issue with giving anyone who wants to compose music the tools to do the job. You will ALWAYS have a load of BAD music when that happens, and with more TV choice there will ALWAYS be more BAD films and dramas and comedys made. You cant look at that, ayou have to look at the cream of the crop and there are very good composers around and there are really good film makers and actors around. Many brilliant artists now work in films and games, and most people never see their art in an art gallery to be admired for itself.

Ed
 

ace

Pepper's Keeper - Administrator
Edx said:
But if thats what you meant as well like you say here, thats certianly not how it sounded. You said ""learn how to write music, and then worry about the other stuff later". Thats compltely different to saying someone should noodle around on a piano for fun or something, to "figure out what notes make what sounds".
I meant that he should spend time figuring out the basics himself before he worried about buying elaborate programs. I really didn't mean that he should go to college or anything, just that he should experiment and learn how to write music before worrying about how to make it sound good.

I dont see this connection you are drawing. Sure, if you can read and write music you can look at score manuscripts and see how the music is put together. You can read music theory books about 4 part harmony, orchestration or counterpoint and it will be much easier to learn. But that doesnt mean you cant learn the same concept another way. Sure it will be a lot harder, but most of the basics you can easily pick up by ear.
I just don't see the point in not learning the basics in a traditional way.

Believe me Ive heard enough crappy pieces of music to know not everything is art. I think you misunderstand what I mean by art. Its the craft of music thats "art", not everything someone makes is art. Second, Ive heard wonderfull music by people that are not formally trained, that cannot read music and that worked basically by ear. And I have heard really boring music by people that have music degrees. And if you like your music, and other people like your music, who really cares if you cant read and write it?
I think the way that a person crafts their music is a big determiner of its quality. So if the person that has never had any training and doesn't know how to read or write music writes a really great piece of music, would it have been an even better piece of music if he had had more training? Did that person put the maximum amount of effort into that piece of music? If the person with the music degree writes a really bad piece of music, did he put the maximum amount of effort into that piece of music or is he just a bad composer?

Ive heard the same thing said about artists, actors and films and TV and its exactly the same argument.
Not quite. I'm not saying that classical music is suffocating from a flood of mediocrity. The concert halls certainly aren't being abandoned because orchestras are stuck playing a new composer's poorly written work. They're still playing Mozart and Beethoven. If there are Mozarts and Beethoven's being born then I think they're either being handicapped by a lack of knowledge or held back because people no longer see value in intellectualizing music. The availability of technology is not replacing the fact that music is undervalued.
 
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