Let the music play

Edx

Spaceman
Needaham45 said:
But speaking of topic shift, this started out as discussion of music software, and look where it ended up. .
I think its still relevant though since this guy, I assume anyway, isnt musically trained and when you are just starting out you might get put off by someone suggesting you go learn how to read and write music before you can start making music.

It also seems a rather strange thing to me, being able to write and read music wont really make much difference in this context anyway. Understanding basic 4 part harmony and basic orchestration will be far more usefull initially than understanding how to write music itself.
 

Needaham45

Spaceman
Well stated Edx--I couldn't agree more :)

Although in all the debate my point did get somewhat misconstrued, that's sortof, basically, what I've been trying to say.
 

ace

Pepper's Keeper - Administrator
I'm not sure why I'm coming off like such an ogre, but I assume I was right all along and that whenever someone mentions Music Theory (which wasn't even me) everyone gets very defensive. I just don't understand why some of these points are being argued. No one is suggesting that a person must or should learn anything about Music Theory before they begin the journey of musical self-discovery. It never even happens like that anyway; children will always have their first experiences sitting at their grandmother's piano or some equivelant. My suggestion was just that he should try the free music program, figure out what notes make what sounds, and work from there.

I guess the core of the matter is that it's easy to make music. It's an important element in everybody's lives and it's the easiest art form to participate in. I can understand that people will feel, at least, indifference towards and, at most, hostility towards a comprehensive collection of knowledge and guidelies that seem to have little relevance with the music that they love. Nobody likes being told what they can and can't do with their own personal art and when you start taking things that seriously it just plain takes the fun out of things. Who wants to study up on a hobby?

With today's technology everybody has this amazing ability to hear their heart's voice instantly, so even less knowledge is required. People would hardly have made a stink about having to know how to write music down on paper back when it was required to write music down on paper. Music now plays itself so trial, error and luck can easily guide and educate far easier than before. This is fine, great, dandy and perfectly acceptable. Maybe you could even call it art.

Well I probably am an ogre, but I just don't think it's art. Sure, it feels good and produces a warm feeling of satisfaction, but the difference between art and masturbation is that art requires far more effort, forethought and dedication. The technology that provided the masses with the ability to create and perform symphonies has not provided the world with a deluge of masterpieces and, in fact, it's indisputable that the number of great composers and great works of art has substantially declined and will continue to do so. Is technology to blame for this decline, or has is it a combination of the prevalant ambivalence and general malaise towards intellectualizing an art form that had been advancing and evolving as a direct result of such intellectualization for centuries?
 

ace

Pepper's Keeper - Administrator
Needaham45 said:
Also, ace, do you use Sibelius? Been a long time since you've seen/heard some of my writing and I was wondering if you'd be interested in taking a look. I'd like to know what you have to say.
I haven't actually used Sibelius in a long time and I don't believe I have a copy of it around anymore. Of course I'd still be interested in seeing some of your writing despite that. I think it'd be great to hear more music from everyone around here.
 

Needaham45

Spaceman
Sure thing--what's the format of your choice then? I can send you pictures of scores and mp3s, or just MIDIs or any combination, or perhaps you have a program that'll open the Sibelius files (I know Sibelius can open Finale Files if they're encoded properly). Let me know.
 

Delance

Victory, you say?
ace said:
Yeah, of course construction workers and grandmothers can make music. They're still going to build on the hundreds of years of tonal western music to do it and the quality of their music will still be dependent on their understanding of Music Theory be it a general unconscious understanding or not.
That's right. This understanding may come naturally and easliy for very talented individuals, so even a 10-year-old can compose a masterpiece. But it's still based on his understanding Music Theory, even if he or she is unaware of it.
 

Needaham45

Spaceman
Building on western music and music theory could be argued to be two different things. I mean, I guess it depends on how broad our definition music theory is. If we're trickly talking about things like chordal analysis, harmonization, orhcestration, and things like that the I disagree. If the definition we are going by is a bit broader and more philisophical, and includes things involving the well-tempered system and the 12 traditional tones of western music, then I would agree. When I think of music theory though, I don't think of these broader concepts.

A 10 year old composing, would draw on their experiences, and therefore would use the types of music they have heard and have been exposed to (and the same is true for anyone of any age really). If experiences such as a 12 tone system and use of traditional instruments and ensembles are to be included in music theory, then they are drawing on it, but personally, I would not include these things as music theory. Although strictly by name they are, the connotation of music theory doesn't always include them, and in college courses usually things like even temperment are discussed under course titles such as "The Physics of Music" and not Music Theory.
 

ace

Pepper's Keeper - Administrator
Needaham45 said:
Sure thing--what's the format of your choice then? I can send you pictures of scores and mp3s, or just MIDIs or any combination, or perhaps you have a program that'll open the Sibelius files (I know Sibelius can open Finale Files if they're encoded properly). Let me know.
Pictures of scores would probably be the most interesting, but I wouldn't be opposed to MIDIs if that's more convenient for you.
 

Needaham45

Spaceman
I'll get some stuff together for you then--pictures, and if you want MIDI renders, but the file sizes will probably be big (I've been dealing mostly with large scores lately).
 

PeteyG

I can have an avatar now
I've been lurking in this thread, but I'd be interested in seeing what you've got too, Needaham!
 

Needaham45

Spaceman
ace, PeteyG:

I put together a zip file of a graphic version of the score (each page is saved as a TIFF file-if this is a problem, I can save them as bitmaps as well), and an MP3 to a band piece I completed a few months ago. The premiere is in about 2 weeks. The following is the program note on the piece:

"The Music Within (2006) is my first work for symphonic band and was written for the 20th Anniversary Celebration of the Bloomfield Youth Band, under the founder and director, Patrick Burns. The piece is a celebration of the realization every musician has at some point when the music “leaves the page.” Eventually every musician gets past notes, fingerings and the ink, and sees music as an emotional, communicational, and personal experience. When this occurs, the playing becomes more expressive, and is the point at which the real music can be made. This realization for me came while working under Pat in the Youth Band, and thus was the perfect subject for me to write about for the 20th Anniversary concert.

Following a concert overture format, The Music Within attempts to separate music into its mathematical and emotional elements (the concept of this separation was also taught to me by Pat while in the Youth Band). The beginning is very heroic and bombastic, with a melody of majesty in the brass, juxtaposed to a very rhythmic figure in the woodwinds. This builds to a climax with leads into a slower, more lyrical section. Featuring a solo trumpet, this section hints at the emotional aspects of music and builds to the strongest climax in the piece. Very quickly there is a shift of gears in a fugue-like, mathematical section. This leads into a restatement of the theme from the beginning, recombining the emotional and mathematical elements in majesty once more. The piece builds to an exciting conclusion in lydian, Patrick Burn’s favorite musical mode, as a tribute to the band’s director, and my teacher, colleague, and friend. Durration: 7:30 minutes."

The file is somewhat large (approx 9-10 MB)--where can I send it?

If you're also interested in choral writing, or even pop writing, I can show you some of that stuff too.

I should note that of course, all of this stuff is for personal use and if you want to use it for ANYTHING other than just looking at it and sending comments or playing yourself to let me know. Although the publishing label on the bottom is just a little joke with the groups that play my music, the music is infact copyrighted and once I hear back from them, ASCAP protected (the score was printed before the copyright info changed and I joined ASCAP).
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
Needaham45 said:
"The Music Within (2006) is my first work for symphonic band and was written for the 20th Anniversary Celebration of the Bloomfield Youth Band, under the founder and director, Patrick Burns. The piece is a celebration of the realization every musician has at some point when the music “leaves the page.” Eventually every musician gets past notes, fingerings and the ink, and sees music as an emotional, communicational, and personal experience. When this occurs, the playing becomes more expressive, and is the point at which the real music can be made. This realization for me came while working under Pat in the Youth Band, and thus was the perfect subject for me to write about for the 20th Anniversary concert.
:rolleyes:

The file is somewhat large (approx 9-10 MB)--where can I send it?
Who doesn't have webspace to dump small files on in 2006?

I should note that of course, all of this stuff is for personal use and if you want to use it for ANYTHING other than just looking at it and sending comments or playing yourself to let me know.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 

PeteyG

I can have an avatar now
you could send me the stuff at my crius username @u.washington.edu

unless you can find some hosting!
 

Needaham45

Spaceman
Halman said:
What the hell is lydian? I have to know, since I'm full of natural music talent, arn't I?[
Lydian is the forth musical mode. You may know of the church modes from gregorian chant--the modern modes are not identical to these, but similar. The easiest way to achieve them is to play on all white keys on a piano as follows:

Ionian (major) - C to C
Dorian (minor) - D to D
Phrygian (minor) - E to E
Lydian (major) - F to F
Mixolydian (major) - G to G
Aeolian (minor) - A to A
Locrian (half diminished) - B to B

If you were to transpose these, you could form them from the major scale with the following alterations:

Ionian - none
Dorian - lowered 3rd, lowered 7th
Phrygian - lowered 2nd, lowered 3rd, lowered 6th, lowered 7th
Lydian - raised 4th
Mixolydian - lowered 7th
Aeolian - lowered 3rd, lowered 6th, lowered 7th
Locrian - lowered 2nd, lowered 3rd, lowered 5th, lowered 6th, lowered 7th

It should be noted that Ionian is the conventional major, and aeolian is the conventional natural minor. The modes today are most commonly used in certain compositions (Persechetti and Bartok were very fond of them, for example) and in jazz improvisation (where dorian is the minor scale of choice usually, mixolydian is the scale of choice over a dominant 7 chord, and locrian is one of the only options over a half-diminished chord--the other modes crop up in jazz improv as well, those are just the most common examples). Locrian is somewhat rare to find as the main tonality of piece however--it lacks a perfect 5th relationship between tonic and dominant and thus is extremely unstable.

What's wrong, ChrisReid? I was asked to write a piece for a primarily educational musical ensemble as a tribute for their 20th anniversary. I thought it was an appropriate subject. You may think it's cheesy, but I have a feeling the experience I am describing and writing about is something virtually every musician can relate to and understand, and a very real and important thing. Either way, it's what influenced the notes. Also, I unfortionately do not have any webspace that is available for this, but if anyone knows where I can get a fairly large amount of space that will allow me to upload MP3s, and that's free, that would be wonderful (I've looked unsuccessfully). And finally in this day and age of 2006, stealing music has become easier than ever--better to protect yourself than be sorry later.
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
Needaham45 said:
What's wrong, ChrisReid? I was asked to write a piece for a primarily educational musical ensemble as a tribute for their 20th anniversary. I thought it was an appropriate subject. You may think it's cheesy, but I have a feeling the experience I am describing and writing about is something virtually every musician can relate to and understand, and a very real and important thing.
My reply had nothing to do with any of that. I have a friend who's a famous musician and I fully respect all inspirations and thought processes behind that. Your post just came off as one of the most pretentious I've ever seen here.

I unfortionately do not have any webspace that is available for this, but if anyone knows where I can get a fairly large amount of space that will allow me to upload MP3s, and that's free, that would be wonderful (I've looked unsuccessfully).
Punching "free file host" into Google turns up quite a few results. A bunch on the first page are pretty reputable and should do the trick. People here have use rapidshare, putfile, filefront and that sort of thing.

http://filelodge.bolt.com/index.php "File Lodge is a free file hosting provider especially designed to look after you and your files. We offer a huge 500MB of file storage and support almost all file extensions, such as jpg, gif, mpg, avi, wmv, doc, pdf, mp3 etc. Bandwidth is unlimited. Perfect for sharing photos/images, music, and video with friends and family."

And finally in this day and age of 2006, stealing music has become easier than ever--better to protect yourself than be sorry later.
If anyone wanted to steal the music you sent them, your haughty admonition would do nothing to prevent or protect it.
 

Needaham45

Spaceman
Program notes are generally written for people who do not have musical background and are designed so that any layperson can read them and know exactly what the piece is about, the composer's feelings about the subject, and often a description of the work. They are also used in catalogs to try to give a picture of the piece, and encourage people to buy it. Also, when a piece is commissioned or written for a specific person, group, or purpose, the program note will explain the relevence to that group, and often pay tribute to them. Please keep in mind the post was a program note, which yes, often do use a somewhat "lofty" diction.

I will look into those sites, thanks.

And either way on the copyright thing, the first thing anyone is taught is when sharing music online (especially in a format such as a score), is to protect your music. There's a reason there are copyright warnings before movies you buy play--with some people, seeing that or knowing that the music is protected does make a difference. Also, some might assume that because I'm showing them it is public domain when it in fact is not. It also protects them to know--if someone liked the music, and then performed it or used it without me knowing anywhere liscencable by ASCAP (any school/university, performing hall, ect.--even online performance), ASCAP can legally demand royalties for the performance for me, without me even knowing about it. If I'm aware of the performance however, and I chose to waive royalty rights, I need to inform ASCAP of that, thus ensuring the person performing is off the hook if I want them to be. The last thing I want is some poor person who enjoyed my music and performed it to be hounded by ASCAP for royalties when they weren't even aware they would be legally bound to pay them.
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
Needaham45 said:
And either way on the copyright thing, the first thing anyone is taught is when sharing music online (especially in a format such as a score), is to protect your music. There's a reason there are copyright warnings before movies you buy play--with some people, seeing that or knowing that the music is protected does make a difference. Also, some might assume that because I'm showing them it is public domain when it in fact is not.
We deal with artistic content every single day here. Be it 3d renders or paintings or stories or music. Nobody wants the stuff they make ripped off, but most of us get by without an obtuse warning about copyrights and fair use. Lots of people here ask others not to steal their stuff, but that really capped off one tedious post.
 

Needaham45

Spaceman
Sorry--guess I didn't think covering my rear end would be an issue--I've had issues with copyright before, and I just want to cover my bases. Besides, this piece, unlike other many other things here, and even work I've written that I don't worry about copyright so much with, has a good likelyhood of being published, making the stakes higher than that of the things I write for the games (which are not for profit).

And if this is pretentious, then I want to know what you call some other things I've seen posted here... I didn't think it was that bad. Regardless of yours, or anyone else's personal feelings, I feel I'm well within my rights here. I have had people use my music before without my knowledge, and I have no problems with people doing what they will usually, as long as I know about it--I just wanted to make sure nothing unfortionate happened to me or my art, and I think, as we do all deal with artistic content here, that we should all be able to appreciate that. This is a public forum. Anyone can see what I'm writing here, and what I post. ANYONE. Say I post this package with the score and mp3 on a website, and supply the url here. Some jerk comes along not even related to the WC community, takes my score, changes the name, sends it off to a publisher, and gets the credit for my work (another reason why I might prefer to e-mail it, ace and PeteyG). It is a real fear today, especially in a public forum such as this, and something that does worry me, as people have disrespected my work before.
 

Halman

PSY-YI-YI
Good freaking lord. What is it with 'serious' art students and being deluded? You're a frazzing *undergrad* at a school none of us likely knows learning from a nobody. Your program note might entertain the one or two other undergrads who couldn't hack it and became music critis, but it's pure tripe to the uneducated lowbrow layperson like myself. And don't pretend you're not infused with the rightousness of your own importance to music, you're warning us not to steal your homework. Because, you know, we're all going to want to play it in public.

In the future, be a little more cognizant of how you might come off.
Because you're coming off very badly.
 
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