Lance? Dragon? Which is it?

Wojo

Rear Admiral
I may have missed some important conversation, but I'm just wondering why the fighter all the Black Lance fly is listed in the ships database as 'Lance' not 'Dragon' ? Is there some fiction somewhere that clears this up? I'm fairly certain that within WC4 it was never called a 'Lance'...

Just wondering...
 
Ah a question is no doubt often asked. From what I remember at a glance, the fighter was the F-107 Lance but was just often called the Dragon which was probably a specific reference to all Black Lance F-107s.
 
Do they ever call it a "Dragon" on the FMV, or is this just like the BWM computer displays it? I
 
I picked this up partly by osmosis, until LOAF clarified it more completely. I'm sure he would/will answer this when he gets the chance, but this get's asked a lot, and he's probably tired of answering it. You could probably find out the answer by looking through old thread archives, but I'll make a pass at answering your question.

LOAF or someone in the know, please correct me if I get anything wrong.

According to the canon, the F-107 superfighter that was developed was officially dubbed the "Lance". This is in keeping with Confed naming (many) fighters after hand-held weapons (i.e. "Scimitar", "Rapier", "Gladius", "Stiletto", "Epee", "Sabre", "Broadsword", "Crossbow", "Morningstar", "Arrow").

However, nowhere in the actual Wing Commander 4 game does anyone call it the Lance. Tolwyn's secret force was dubbed "The Black Lance", possibly because they were a "black" (i.e. secret) operation that flew the "Lance", but I suppose that the name overlap "Lance" and "Black Lance" could also be a coincidence (or possibly, the causality ran the other way...the F-107 was dubbed the "Lance" because it was intended for use by the organization called "The Black Lance").

The term "Dragon" get's introduced in the WC4 intro. I forget if "Dragon" is Seether's callsign, or the name of the wing that he led in attacking the refugee ship, but in either case, we hear him referred to as "Dragon Lead". Many fans, including myself for a long time, took this to mean that he was leading a flight of fighters called "Dragons", but this was later revealed (not sure how...was it in the novelization?) to be incorrect--it was referring to the wing or the pilot, not the craft. The mixup is understandable...the context in the WC4 intro is not clear, and I don't believe that the craft is ever referred to by either the term "Lance" or "Dragon" for the rest of the game.

Hence, "Dragon" has become a term commonly understood (by fans) for the F-107 Lance. But "Lance" is technically correct. Still, if you call it a Dragon, everyone will know what you're talking about, although some stickler for detail is likely to correct you.

This is pure speculation, but it's possible that even in the universe, Dragon could be a nickname for the Lance (kind of like how "Warthog" is a nickname for the Thunderbolt II in the USAF). After all, the most famous Lance pilot at the time the fighter's existence was revealed was Seether, who flew under the callsign "Dragon Lead" or something like that.
 
This is pure speculation, but it's possible that even in the universe, Dragon could be a nickname for the Lance (kind of like how "Warthog" is a nickname for the Thunderbolt II in the USAF). After all, the most famous Lance pilot at the time the fighter's existence was revealed was Seether, who flew under the callsign "Dragon Lead" or something like that.

This might be the easiest way to look at it. You've pretty much got the back story down. One additional mention is that "Black Lance" is even an appropriate name for the fighter in the same way that the upgraded Covert Ops variants of the fighters we fly in Secret Ops are officialy referred to with names like F-110-S "Black" Wasp and so on.
 
but...

If you switch inbetween the ships on the selection screen when you have the dragon available, Pliers comments: "Boy, these dragons sure are something!"

Ofcourse unlimited afterburners and fission cannons would seriously unbalance any future game..
 
but...

If you switch inbetween the ships on the selection screen when you have the dragon available, Pliers comments: "Boy, these dragons sure are something!"

Right...I'm one of the folks that thought the ship was called a Dragon, but I was trying to remember where I got that from...I knew it wasn't from something as obscure as Seether's 'Dragon Wing/Leader' comm chatter from the intro.

It came from Pliers load-out screen comments.
 
Right...I'm one of the folks that thought the ship was called a Dragon, but I was trying to remember where I got that from...I knew it wasn't from something as obscure as Seether's 'Dragon Wing/Leader' comm chatter from the intro.

It came from Pliers load-out screen comments.

It's refered to in the game pretty much exclusively as the Dragon. *But* I believe it's all the supporting documentation and novel etc that point out that it's the lance...
 
Yeah, thats what confused me, it's referred to as a dragon by Pliers, in the loadout screen, and on the targeting hud, but I never heard mention or saw written 'Lance' until on the ships database here - just wondering where it came from.
 
Well,

It's an undocumented "alien" ship from the "good guys" point of view. And somebody came up with the nickname for it, and maybe Pliers just used that name to refer to it, and programmed it into the ship's computers.

Ofcours after it was captured and declassified, they learned it from the ships itself, and if "Lance" was it's real name it makes sense that in te novell the black lance refer to it by that name, while the Border Worlds forces came up with their own name for it. Or did you think the nephilim named their ships after earth's fish? :D
 
*But* I believe it's all the supporting documentation and novel etc that point out that it's the lance...
There wasn't much in the way of documentation for WC4. I only ever heard of the Lance from the community here, and given that I haven't the privilege of reading The Price of Freedom, I would guess that the Lance reference comes from the novel.

Certainly, if one has only ever played the game, one would never come across the ship being called a Lance.
 
I picked this up partly by osmosis, until LOAF clarified it more completely. I'm sure he would/will answer this when he gets the chance, but this get's asked a lot, and he's probably tired of answering it. You could probably find out the answer by looking through old thread archives, but I'll make a pass at answering your question.

LOAF or someone in the know, please correct me if I get anything wrong.

According to the canon, the F-107 superfighter that was developed was officially dubbed the "Lance". This is in keeping with Confed naming (many) fighters after hand-held weapons (i.e. "Scimitar", "Rapier", "Gladius", "Stiletto", "Epee", "Sabre", "Broadsword", "Crossbow", "Morningstar", "Arrow").

However, nowhere in the actual Wing Commander 4 game does anyone call it the Lance. Tolwyn's secret force was dubbed "The Black Lance", possibly because they were a "black" (i.e. secret) operation that flew the "Lance", but I suppose that the name overlap "Lance" and "Black Lance" could also be a coincidence (or possibly, the causality ran the other way...the F-107 was dubbed the "Lance" because it was intended for use by the organization called "The Black Lance").

The term "Dragon" get's introduced in the WC4 intro. I forget if "Dragon" is Seether's callsign, or the name of the wing that he led in attacking the refugee ship, but in either case, we hear him referred to as "Dragon Lead". Many fans, including myself for a long time, took this to mean that he was leading a flight of fighters called "Dragons", but this was later revealed (not sure how...was it in the novelization?) to be incorrect--it was referring to the wing or the pilot, not the craft. The mixup is understandable...the context in the WC4 intro is not clear, and I don't believe that the craft is ever referred to by either the term "Lance" or "Dragon" for the rest of the game.

Hence, "Dragon" has become a term commonly understood (by fans) for the F-107 Lance. But "Lance" is technically correct. Still, if you call it a Dragon, everyone will know what you're talking about, although some stickler for detail is likely to correct you.

This is pure speculation, but it's possible that even in the universe, Dragon could be a nickname for the Lance (kind of like how "Warthog" is a nickname for the Thunderbolt II in the USAF). After all, the most famous Lance pilot at the time the fighter's existence was revealed was Seether, who flew under the callsign "Dragon Lead" or something like that.

Seether's callsign is "Seether" :)

You know how you always fly Alpha Wing in Wing Commander and your referred to as Alpha Lead or Lead? (If I'm wrong, screw it) Same with Seether, but instead of Alpha it was Dragon.

You also forget the Excalibur was F-103(?), named after another old-age weapon.


As for Dragon or Lance; Dragon might *MIGHT* refer to a variant flown by Seether and his wing; and Lance might be the official name.
 
There wasn't much in the way of documentation for WC4. I only ever heard of the Lance from the community here, and given that I haven't the privilege of reading The Price of Freedom, I would guess that the Lance reference comes from the novel.

It also appears as the Lance in Star*Soldier, and the Star Soldier Gloss explains more of the backstory:

"F-107 Lance" - A designation for the 'Dragon' from Wing Commander IV! My theory which goes against the popular fan opinion is that there's an ordinary fighter model of the Lance serving with the Confederation fleet. Imagine it with slightly less sleak lines and painted in ordinary Confederation colors. (For those unfamiliar with the elaborate history here: Wing Commander IV calls the ship the "Dragon". The novelization retcons this - they're called Dragons informally, like the A-10 Thunderbolt II is the 'Warthog'. The actual name of the ship is the 'Lance', because per the script it is derived from the Excalibur program, and the covert ops variant is the 'Black Lance' (think 'Black Panther, Black Wasp, etc. from Wing Commander Secret Ops). In turn, conspiracy has no formal name - "Black Lance" is derived from the familiar fighter, while the actual group is 'The Project' (or '212'). All of this makes sense and, as such things go, is a very clever set of supporting retcons... but it's a huge shock to anyone who has only played Wing Commander IV.
 
Look behind you, a three-headed monkey!

Sorry--I guess I'm one of the only people who remembers, years ago, when mere mention this topic would mean a terrible flame war. I guess we're... growing up?

Damned shame. :)

To be perfectly clear, the idea that ship you know as the Dragon is 'really' (or: secretly) the Lance is a 'retcon' in the most basic sense. It is a fact 'added' by the game's novelization. Wing Commander IV and all of its documentation and the Origin's Official Guide to Wing Commander IV all call it only the 'Dragon' (as would have any of Origin's behind-the-screens material--the script, production drawings, internal files, etc.) There was no plan on the part of the game development team to call the ship anything but the Dragon.

The novel introduces the backstory discussed above: the ship's official name is 'Black Lance' and the ones flown by the GE pilots in Wing Commander IV are frequently assigned the (mission) callsign 'Dragon' (yes to the above, similar to how Casey might be 'Alpha Leader' in Wing Commander Prophecy). Here is the exact quote: "'We cracked open a box of technical tapes,' Pliers said, 'that's what they call 'em. Black Lances. Callsign's usually Dragon.'" The book then goes on to refer to them as Lances or Black Lances throughout.

That's not an unreasonable retcon, really. I can't speak to Dr. Forstchen and Mr. Ohlander's intentions, but I do know that aspects of Wing Commander IV bothered the former and I can make some educated guesses. I think they decided it all sounded a little silly: Tolwyn is now an unrepentant Nazi and he has an evil organization no one has ever noticed with an evil name (and SS logo!) and their own special fighters that have evil names. With a little bit of tweaking they managed to create a bit more versimilitude without hurting what was already spoken in the game. 'Lance' sounds a lot more like an existing Confederation development co-opted by Tolwyn's project, it's the source of the organization's /internal/ nickname (the name is formalized as The Project or the 212th in the book) and so on.

(Also, remember that the novelization was written based only on the game's shooting script... which itself included an interesting bit never made clear in the finished game: the fighter in question is supposed to be recognizable as an evolution of the Excalibur program. I get the distinct feeling the that particular line of scene-setting had a lot to do with the decision to create the further backstory.)

Anyway: yes, it's a retcon and it's one that should only be known by extreme Wing Commander nerds. You have to have read the novelization to know about the change... which is a tiny fraction of people who played the game. Even if you have read the book, you have to give it some credence, too--the novel was published in October, 1996 and the game came out in February... so there was half a year when fans called it nothing but 'Dragon', no matter how anal they were.

It's not a problem with retcons in general, they're an entirely normal thing in fiction--if we'd had many more stories after Wing Commander IV I'm sure we'd all know about the 'Lance' thing just like we learned Blair's name or which Tiger's Claw pilots "really" died. It would have filtered down since it was part of the "canon" that stories set after 2673 might mention... but although there were plenty of Wing Commander stories released after Wing Commander IV, very few were actually *set* then. It's kind of surprising to think about it, but the TV show, the movie, every novel except the bookends of Action Stations, etc. all took place in earlier years and so had no need to mention the fighters again.

Secret Ops touches on the name obliquely by introducing the fact that the Confederation's uprated "covert ops" versions of fighters are, indeed, named 'Black' so-and-so ('Black Wasp', 'Black Vampire', etc... and thus both the 'Black Lance' and the 'Black Hellcat' in the WC4 novelization refer to the fact that they're the covert versions of those spacecraft.) The Wing Commander Arena booklet finally gives us the fighter's designation (and suggests that there may be a plain 'Lance' version).
 
You know how you always fly Alpha Wing in Wing Commander and your referred to as Alpha Lead or Lead?
That reminds me of another thing I noticed:

Sometimes, the Wings are all called by greek letters, sometimes the NATO standard alphabet (what I believe it's called, correct me if I'm wrong) is used. This is made more complicated as some of the letters in the NATO alphabet are identical to greek letters, but not all of them...

(So in short: sometimes, after Alpha comes Beta, and sometimes it's Bravo.)

In one mission of WC2 it even appears as if the Concordia uses all-greek letters, while a "guest wing" from another ship is called the "Foxtrot Wing", therefore sticking to the NATO alphabet.

Does have anyone a guess or maybe a novel-based explanation or clarification of that confusion?
 
It also appears as the Lance in Star*Soldier...
Sorry, Chris, I forgot about that. But, really, Star*Soldier only came out relatively recently. For someone who only ever had the WC4 game to go by, Dragon is the only name I ever knew. Of course, I do accept the official designation to be Lance.

I guess we're... growing up?

Damned shame. :)
Why, LOAF! You sound so disappointed! :)
 
Awesome, this is exactly the discussion and answers I was hoping to spark! Hooray, people care about this stuff! I'm sold on the explanation.

Now we just need to see it reflected in the ships database & wiki... Some day I will get around to volunteering! (just not right now)
 
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