Kilrathi War.

I believe if anything, ConFed should have increased military spending, made increased pushes into new parts of the galaxy and colonise more and more worlds.

The economy was faultering, near a recession (although I don't know where that was said), therefore why not invest some more in finding new resources. It assists in the fact that increased spending should aid the economy. As it wasn't at full employment due to so much destruction therefore there shouldn't be too much inflationary effects.

This way the Kilrathi may feud amongst themselves, yet ConFed would be grow larger in order to defeat any renewal's of Kilrathi strength.

However the Nephilim came along...
 
Confed didn't start the war though (well, technically they declared war first, with their half-assed push into Kilrathi space... but there was no resistance). You can't just fall back into new world indefinately, it takes time to establish new colonies. Making new colonies wastes valuable resources that could be helping the war effort.

TC
 
Originally posted by mpanty
But ultimately, as Fenris wisely pointed out, the Kilrathi had become a death-machine that HAD TO BE STOPPED!("Sometimes, there is an objective fact that certain sides are evil, and have to be stopped. That was the case with the Cats: crush them or die")
I think Fenris definitely made a point here...
Click to expand...
Why is it that you guys insist on repeatedly ignoring the point I'm trying to make?

You don't know CRAP about the Kilrathi. All your information about them comes from Confed sources, which were NOT interested in giving you a fair picture, but rather showing you how evil the Kilrathi are. Wartime propaganda. Now, you can, if you wish, assume on the basis of that propaganda that the Kilrathi must be destroyed. But do you really think that Confed acted any differently? There must be hundreds of cases where Confed soldiers massacred thousands of Kilrathi, fired on unarmed transports, everything. Wasn't the raid on Vukar Tag, essentially a war crime? They attacked a civilian target - a religious site - and desecrated it. How do you think the Kilrathi viewed all this? Undoubtedly, they too consider the Confeds to be a race of genocidal maniacs who need to be destroyed to the last man.

So, let me repeat one more time. You only know the things that Confed wanted you to know. You don't know a thing about how the Kilrathi behave when they're not out to kill you - and contrary to popular belief, the Kilrathi are not always out to kill everything. I would have thought that you'd have learnt that from WC2. Thus, if you make a judgement, it's not based on what the Kilrathi are like, but on what Confed wants you to think they're like.

In conclusion, you're all making stupid judgements because you've been duped by Confed propaganda.
 
Way to go, Quarto!
As I am pro-cat too, I was very disappointed at how primitive the the Kilrathi were described.
Did you remark that the worse the war got for the Condfederation (WC3) the more information was released at how brutal the Kilrathi act?
 
I think in every war in (mankind) history (soldiers of) both sides have killed innocents of the other "side", especially when the wars lasted many years.

But if you take a look at how the war against the Kilrathi started, there is no doubt that:
- not only the Kilrathi destroyed the first confed ship they sighted WITHOUT beeing provoked! That was about 2629, see
https://www.wcnews.com/enc/part1.shtml
- but after that kept on raiding confed ships/worlds for 5 years and refused all confed offers for negotiations until confed had no choice but to declare war against them!

And don't forget what happened in "Fleet Action" (or was it "End Run"? :confused: I only have the german translations and so I'm not sure about the original titles):
Confed was willing to make peace with Kilrah, but the Kilrathi broke peace and would have wiped out or enslaved confed if they had the chance.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Originally posted by Jochen
- not only the Kilrathi destroyed the first confed ship they sighted WITHOUT beeing provoked! That was about 2629, see

I really have a problem with this "without being provoked".
To the Kilrathi it seemed as if the Iason had attacked the ship.
And, like Quarto said, humans will have slaughtered innocent Kilrathi too. I do not only mean by destroying Kilrah what surely killed billions of civilians but also remember the Gettysburg incident: The Captain of the Gettyburg ordered to open fire on an unarmed Kilrathi transport. OK, this started a mutiny, but it shows that also a human would fire on inncocents. I think that you can expect that the Captain of the Gettysburg was the only "evil" shipcaptain.
But there can be no doubt that in WC3 the Kilrathi are described as the true evil, if this is correct remains IMHO to be seen.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Quarto

But do you really think that Confed acted any differently? There must be hundreds of cases where Confed soldiers massacred thousands of Kilrathi, fired on unarmed transports, everything. Wasn't the raid on Vukar Tag, essentially a war crime? They attacked a civilian target - a religious site - and desecrated it. How do you think the Kilrathi viewed all this? Undoubtedly, they too consider the Confeds to be a race of genocidal maniacs who need to be destroyed to the last man.

[/B]
Click to expand...

Just some thoughts:


1. I disagree that we have only Confed sources to draw upon
for our information. In WCII and WCIII cutscenes, and
in many novelizations (Fleet Actions, WC3) we are taken
behind the scenes to see the Kilrathi high command
in action, making its decisions and talking about the
human war. Thus, we have first-hand knowledge (as
viewers) of the Kilrathi Empire's thinking process.
Thrakhath and the emperor in particular do not sound
to me like people defending themselves from ruthless
enemies.
They sound like predators hunting prey. Thus, by
their own words, and not by Confed's propaganda, are
they condemned.

2. Wing Commander is mythology not history -- the timeless
myth of brave men (and women) defending their homes
and families against evildoers who would slay them.
That is why
the Kilrathi are deliberately demonized in all the
Wing Commander games, NOT by Confed, but by
Chris Roberts! Remember the etymology of their
name -- "Those who kill with wrath". And since he is
their creator, who are we to gainsay him?

3. I'm curious -- Although I do not know for sure, I suspect
that you have played WC3 and made the bombing run on
Kilrah yourself. If you truly believe that Confed are
the villains in the game, how do you justify your
actions?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Edited by pendell on 02-23-2001 at 11:38]
 
To point 1: Yes it is true that Thrakhath and the emperor do not sound very kind. But right at the beginning of the WC3 novel it is detailed that the imperial family is quite desperate: Their resources are stretched thin, the other clans are almost rebelling and their fear of the Mantu is very well depicted. It is the reason why the Kilrathi used those bioweapons.

To point 2: Now this is the argument which is very hard, no impossible, to counter. It is true that the developers wanted the Kilrathi to be bad, so that you can really be a true hero, fighting the good fight.
But I find it quite annoying to have such a black-and-white
view on the enemy, as if there was no grey between it.
 
Okay, quite a lot of ground to cover here.

First off, the Emperor and Thrak were more concerned about holding on to power than anything else. "I have to slaughter billions of innocents because otherwise I might not be in charge anymore" doesn't qualify as a justification. That is being power-hungry.

Second, I never said that the Cats were entirely evil. They did have some honor, and there were many who respected Humans, and only fought and killed us because they saw it as their duty. Jukaga is a good example. He genuinely respected Humanity, especially Tolwyn. Obviously, he wasn't a coexistence type, either, we must keep in mind that he intended to enslave us, so he really isn't the best example. You do, however, have the Kilrathi of Ghorah Khar, N'Tanya, and the other dissident worlds, as well as those who didn't really want to be fighting us, as they saw us as equals. (See my previous post about the WC3 novel.)

We all have our devils and our angels. During the war, the Cats happened to be dominated by their devils, and had to be crushed in order to stop them.

Third, the "Confed propaganda" argument. Come on, people! Like pendell said, this is a story, not a history. Besides which, people seem to be all too anxious to believe that just because the history books say it, it is wrong. Just because Confed says that the Cats destroyed many worlds during the drive on Terra at the end of the false peace doesn't mean it didn't happen. Billions died in that offensive, who were killed simply because they were Humans. The argument doesn't hold up, especially since we do see into the Kilrathi command structure.

There are grey areas in WC. The captain of the Gettysburg is never said to be the only one. It is a convention of storytelling that you do not need to show absolutely everything. By showing the one incident, we saw that such things do happen. It was not necessary to show every single time a Human committed a war crime. The Gettysburg was an example. Similarly, we did see good sides to the Cats. I was rather dissapointed that there we didn't see any dissident Cats fighting on our side in WC3, but just because we didn't see them doesn't mean that they weren't there. Further, we know that there were Humans fighting for the Cats. (The Mandarins) It really isn't quite that black-and-white.
 
Most emperors are power hungry.
I am glad to hear that you do not think the Kilrathi are the pure evil but I think they are depicted very "black".
I mean this Anna Magdalena incident in the WC3 manual: Kilrathi destroy a freighter carrying orphans. That is so pathetic.
 
How so? It was, if anything, a reference to the Lusitania or the Athena. These kind of things do happen in wartime. Just because all Kilrathi are not evil, doesn't mean there are not bloodthirsty Cats who would enjoy slaughtering "prey" like the Anna Magdalena. Like I said, the Cats were dominated by their devils during the war.

By the way, did anyone notice the Patton reference with Big Duke on Vukar in End Run?
 
I do not know about an Athena incident but if you mean with Lusitania, the ship that was sunk in WW1 by a German submarine, then I think the comparison does not work.
The Lusitania carried ammunition and US government had been warned that those ships would be attacked.
Sorry if I have the wrong incident in mind and talk cr*p.
 
If the Athena is that liner that was sunk by a U-Boat at the start of WW II, it have its lights out and it was making zig zag course changes, The U-Boat belived that its was carring brithish troops to France and sunk it.
 
I never said it was a direct corellation, but the two incidents, the Lusitania in particular, are well known in the public conciousness, and so could be used by way of comparison. When someone reads about the Anna Magdalena, they will most likely think "Oh, like the Lusitania." Just look at the Pearl Harbor parallels in Action Stations.
 
Originally posted by pendell


I disagree that we have only Confed sources to draw upon for our information. In WCII and WCIII cutscenes, and in many novelizations (Fleet Actions, WC3) we are taken behind the scenes to see the Kilrathi high command in action, making its decisions and talking about the human war. Thus, we have first-hand knowledge (as viewers) of the Kilrathi Empire's thinking process.
Thrakhath and the emperor in particular, do not sound to me like people defending themselves from ruthless enemies.
They sound like predators hunting prey. Thus, by their own words, and not by Confed's propaganda, are they condemned.
Click to expand...

There's this point first, I totally agree.
In WC II at first, then at some points in WC III (rarer though), we actually see the Kilrathi talk about the war and the course of actions. They are not depicted as desperate as
Mekt-Hakkikt said, it seems they are quite convinced of their actions!


2. Wing Commander is mythology not history -- the timeless
myth of brave men (and women) defending their homes and families against evildoers who would slay them.
That is why the Kilrathi are deliberately demonized in all the Wing Commander games, NOT by Confed, but by Chris Roberts! Remember the etymology of their name -- "Those who kill with wrath".
And since he is their creator, who are we to gainsay him?
Click to expand...

I think this is the ULTIMATE point guys!! I mean come on, like I said before, it's hard to get OUT of the Wing Commander for a minute, but the story's total fiction!! (sorry TC ;))

The Kilrathi were programmed, they were designed, created, to be evil characters. Wing Commander is a fighting game, not a diplomacy game, where not only would you have to fight the enemy, but sometimes would need to be a smooth talker to convince him that peace is better!
If you want that kind of game, go play Civilization!!

We are sitting behind a computer to blow up Kilrathi ships!! And since it wouldn't be very fun to kill the good guys (hey , some freaks might like that...), besides giving the videogame criticisers a chance to open their big mouths, we are fighting aliens! (ok, the Price of Freedom is the only exception).

The Kilrathi were intended to be like they are, merciless and bloodthirsty, and that's that...
 
The Anna Magdelena was *not* an act of war -- it was one of many such incidents which occured *before* the war... the Kilrathi are killers -- we can reason with them now because we taught them that we weren't prey species. :)
 
Originally posted by pendell
1. I disagree that we have only Confed sources to draw upon for our information. In WCII and WCIII cutscenes, and in many novelizations (Fleet Actions, WC3) we are taken behind the scenes to see the Kilrathi high command in action, making its decisions and talking about the human war. Thus, we have first-hand knowledge (as viewers) of the Kilrathi Empire's thinking process. Thrakhath and the emperor in particular do not sound to me like people defending themselves from ruthless enemies.
They sound like predators hunting prey. Thus, by their own words, and not by Confed's propaganda, are they condemned.
Click to expand...
I do not see your point. If you could visit the White House during a war, do you think they would sound any different? This isn't the Kilrathi Empire's thinking process - this is the Kilrathi Government's thinking process. Governments, of course, are always cynical, and tend to follow so-called realist thinking. But what you're trying to say is that because the Germans were led by Hitler, they are all evil.

2. Wing Commander is mythology not history -- the timeless myth of brave men (and women) defending their homes and families against evildoers who would slay them. That is why the Kilrathi are deliberately demonized in all the Wing Commander games, NOT by Confed, but by Chris Roberts! Remember the etymology of their name -- "Those who kill with wrath". And since he is their creator, who are we to gainsay him?
Click to expand...
As I recall, the etymology of their name is a myth, completely baseless. And yes, WC is not real, so it does all come down to the creators (though it should be noted that in-game reasons are much more fun to debate). But your point is false - the Kilrathi were clearly not just evildoers. Did you somehow miss WC2, with its Ghorah Khar, K'arakh, N'tanya, and Shariha? WC products tell us all over the place that the Kilrathi are not evil. And what makes you think that the other stuff, the stuff that tells us how evil the Kilrathi are, isn't supposed to be Confed propaganda?

3. I'm curious -- Although I do not know for sure, I suspect that you have played WC3 and made the bombing run on Kilrah yourself. If you truly believe that Confed are the villains in the game, how do you justify your actions?
Click to expand...
Wait... when exactly did I say that Confed are the villains? I am not denying Kilrathi attrocities. What I am saying is that the Kilrathi are no more evil than humans are.
How do I justify my actions? I hated that mission. There is really no justification sufficient for that mission - if it had been real, and not a computer game, I'd have probably needed a million times more counselling than the pilot of the Enola Gay (who did require counselling). But it was something that had to be done. Ironically, it was probably the best way to save lives. How many more would have died, both Confed and Kilrathi, if Kilrah wasn't destroyed? Billions on Earth, billions more on Confed colonies in the Vega Sector... then billions more as a human resistance fought back with everything, from nuclear warheads to bioweapons...
Much like the Germans in WWII, the Kilrathi had been duped by an evil leader. They would follow him to the end - so, they had to be inflicted a total defeat to snap them out of it. But again - does that make them evil? Of course not.


Fenris says:
Third, the "Confed propaganda" argument. Come on, people! Like pendell said, this is a story, not a history. Besides which, people seem to be all too anxious to believe that just because the history books say it, it is wrong. Just because Confed says that the Cats destroyed many worlds during the drive on Terra at the end of the false peace doesn't mean it didn't happen. Billions died in that offensive, who were killed simply because they were Humans. The argument doesn't hold up, especially since we do see into the Kilrathi command structure.
Click to expand...
What is your point? Have I, at any point, implied that the Kilrathi did not commit those atrocities? No. But what is your point? You people keep bringing this stuff up, as though it somehow proved that the Kilrathi are indeed evil, that the only way to talk to them is through violence.
News flash: Iraq, 1920s. Churchill ordered the use of poison gas against the Kurds; why? They wanted freedom. News flash: Jerusalem, 1099. Christian knights break into the city, and slaughter most of the Muslim and Jewish population. Those who aren't killed are sold into slavery. News flash: Ma'arra, 1098. The city surrenders to Christian knights after a prolonged siege. The Christians' leader promises them their lives. Instead, the Christians slaughter the entire population... then cook them, and eat them.
Had enough? Just because someone commits an evil, doesn't make the entire race evil.

mpanty: I won't bother responding to your post directly, because I think that I covered your points sufficiently in the above post.
 
I never said the entire race was evil. I did point out in a previous post several instances where we see the Cat's good side. What I was arguing against is the increasing sentiment that casts the victors as the bad guys all the time. If that is not what you were trying to say, that the Cat's weren't bad guys, Confed was, and was just trying to cover it up with propaganda, then I apologize, I misunderstood you.
 
I'd just like to say that since I am here, this thread has been by far the most interesting and most open to debate that I have come across.

What's more, due to its delicate subject, the thread is consistent through its 12 pages all along (more to come?)!!

Wing Commander is indeed such a great universe that sometimes one tends to take its matters at heart, like Quarto does (hey, that's good man, very good for the chat zone! :)).

I guess this topic has changed the point of view of many among us, or at least opened new perspectives.

(Hey, this sounds like a conclusion, but if some of you guys want to continue, be my guest! I justa wanted to say that Quarto and Mekt-Hakkikt have been very good pro-cat debaters, and so have Fenris and pendell, bringing many good points to the issue:cool:!)

[Edited by mpanty on 02-23-2001 at 23:21]
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top