Just found this

TopGun

Vampire Ace
This site is for a Star Trek RPG, and yet the fighters in the equipment section, none are from Star Trek, there's the Tigershark wfrom Prophecy and the Razor from WC IV plus the Hammerhead from Space:Above and Beyond. they'ed simply renamed the 2 WC fighters and gave the Hammerhead a different designation

Check it out
 

AD

Finder of things, Doer of stuff
Hehehe, this is what it says about the razor:

Archangel Class Fighter/Bomber is a warp capable, long-range attack craft. Utilizing a crew of three persons, the Archangel is commonly used for combat missions, percision strikes and ground support. Like her counterparts the Thunderbolt and Excalibur, the Archangel carries four micro-warp nacelles

Standard Crew Complement: 3
Decks: 2
I like how it's "counterparts" are the Thunderbolt and Excalibur
 

Porthos

Crazy Nazi Kitten Impaler<BR><IMG SRC="images/rank
I am C-3PO human-cyborg relations. And this is my counterpart, R2-D2.


Yeah, kinda sounds like that.

Plagiarists . . .
 

AKAImBatman

Spaceman
My goodness, people. Relax! Immitation is the sincerest form of flattery!

That being said, this facet of the RPG strikes me as just stupid. The Star Trek Universe is predicated on the concept that a bigger ship will be able to mount bigger engines as well as offsensive and defensive weaponry. Even if a fighter made some sort of sense (which it tends not to), its weak shields would make it easy picking for a starship (which tends NOT to miss). The closest thing the ST universe has to fighters is shuttlecraft and land attack craft. And both of those should RUN LIKE HELL if they see a good sized starship on the way. :)
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Hehe, it's just one of those cute internet things. Budding teenage geeks make sites like that. They'll either grow up and laugh about how silly they used to be or they'll register their very own SpaceBattles account. Either way, it's all part of the great circle of e-life.
 

TopGun

Vampire Ace
AKAImBatman said:
The closest thing the ST universe has to fighters is shuttlecraft and land attack craft. And both of those should RUN LIKE HELL if they see a good sized starship on the way. :)
There are Fighters in the Star Trek Universe. Take the PS1 game Star Trek Invasion for example, it's got the Valkyrie-Calss Fighter (Mks I, II, and III)

there's also the Peregrine-Class, that can be seen in DS9

 

AKAImBatman

Spaceman
TopGun said:
There are Fighters in the Star Trek Universe. Take the PS1 game Star Trek Invasion for example, it's got the Valkyrie-Calss Fighter (Mks I, II, and III)
The PS game is an exception because it isn't canon. I remember seeing that game at the Sony Metranome and thinking, "here's an example of how to make money off of Star Trek while having abso-frikin'-lutely nothing to *do* with Star Trek."

there's also the Peregrine-Class, that can be seen in DS9
Those aren't fighters. Check Memory Alpha. They're shuttlecraft that have been souped up. They wouldn't (and don't) last for more than 10 seconds in a fleet engagement. The problem? The larger ships have a tactical advantage by having stronger shields, greater speed, and more powerful phasers. The souped up Peregrines are really nothing more than terrorist tools.

Sorry, Star Trek and fighters just don't mix. Oh, and don't ever mention DS9 and warfare in a serious conversation again. ("You make me laugh monkey boy!") :p :D
 

TopGun

Vampire Ace
AKAImBatman said:
The PS game is an exception because it isn't canon. I remember seeing that game at the Sony Metranome and thinking, "here's an example of how to make money off of Star Trek while having abso-frikin'-lutely nothing to *do* with Star Trek."
say what you like about Invasion, it's a great game imo
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
AKAImBatman said:
Those aren't fighters. Check Memory Alpha. They're shuttlecraft that have been souped up. They wouldn't (and don't) last for more than 10 seconds in a fleet engagement. The problem? The larger ships have a tactical advantage by having stronger shields, greater speed, and more powerful phasers. The souped up Peregrines are really nothing more than terrorist tools.
The Memory Alpha site also refers to them as fighters (souped up armed shuttlecraft are pretty much what I'd call fighters) which Starfleet fielded during the Dominion War.
 

AKAImBatman

Spaceman
ChrisReid said:
The Memory Alpha site also refers to them as fighters (souped up armed shuttlecraft are pretty much what I'd call fighters) which Starfleet fielded during the Dominion War.
From Memory Alpha:

The Peregrine class was a type of shuttlecraft, originally employed as a courier by the Federation. The Maquis appropriated several Peregrine class ships and used them as attack fighters by during their insurrection against the Cardassians.

As for their use in the Dominion War, Memory Alpha clearly states that they were just flies, intended as a distraction:

In one instance, during the Battle of Bajor, several Peregrine class fighters were sent to attack the Cardassian ships of a Dominion fleet. It was hoped they would anger the Cardassians enough for them to break formation and go after the fighters, thus opening a hole in their lines.

So I stand by my assertion. The Star Trek Universe precludes true fighter craft because the doctrine is that the bigger the ship, the greater its tactical advantage. The only exception to that rule is the Defiant, which was built as set of weapons wrapped around the biggest engine they could stick in the available space. They then added a few bunks in the little space left over. :) As Sisko said, "She's overpowered for her size. When they first fired her up, she nearly shook herself apart."

say what you like about Invasion, it's a great game imo
Didn't say it was a bad game. If I had a Playstation, I might have even bought it. But Star Trek canon, it is not. From James Swallow:

Part of the job was to transform a script created by gamers who were not writers into something voice actors could handle; this also meant dotting every I and crossing every T when it came to Star Trek lore. Fans of the show are notorious for spotting errors in continuity, so it was important to tie the game as closely as possible to the Trek universe.

Sometimes that meant substituting 'phaser' for 'laser' and 'warp drive' for 'hyperspace', but on other occasions it involved a serious bit of research and rewriting to fix a game element in place. Invasion had not been written by Star Trek afficionadoes, which meant that several pieces of narrative in the original script did not fit with established Trek history - it was my job to change them so they did, but not so much that they impacted on the game mechanics. It was difficult line to walk, and sometimes a frustrating one.


Source: http://hometown.aol.co.uk/redwingproject/invasion.htm

What the game really was, was the game Colony Wars with the setting changed to the Star Trek Universe. Which, of course, required that Psygnosis "make up" fighter vessels in the Star Trek Universe. Again from Mr. Swallow:

In order to create a scaled threat to the smaller Valkyrie ships, Invasion introduces fighter-class vessels for all three races; my personal favourites are the nifty bat-winged Klingon strike craft and the conical Borg attack ships, which were nicknamed 'piercing units' by the designers.

So in short, nice game with nice marketing ploy. Cannot be considered a reasonable source of any information. :)
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
This is one of the many problems with Star Trek fandom online.

The idea that some things are "canon" and some are not has made everyone very stupid. The fact that there is a Star Trek 'canon' exists *only* as a tool for professional writers who are scripting new episodes. Fans should never, ever have appropriated it because they are absolutely unable to understand this context -- and, unfortunately, the powers that be haven't really picked up on this fact yet.

The fact that a Star Trek novel or a video game is "not canon" means that in the future a TV show can contradict it with impunity. This is *all it means*. The licensed product is still responsible for continuity with the current canon - it just gives future episodes of Enterprise {now invalid, I suppose} the right to contradict newly established facts without (perhaps) fans screaming that they didn't cross reference six hundred novels beforehand. "Not canon" is not the same thing as "could not happen, better ignore it". There's this huge group of Star Trek fans who don't read the novels or enjoy the RPG or play video games specifically because they're sure 'non canon' means something it doesn't.

Star Wars works the same way, but Lucas{X} put a hilarious facade over it that properly plays up the fact that their fans are searching for meaning rather than thought. Star Wars movies have the same 'canon' in terms of what writers are responsible for: the previous films. Instead of just saying that all other products are 'non canon', they suggested to everyone that they're a 'different level of canon'. In reality they're the "level" where you aren't responsible for them when you're writing a new movie... which means they're exactly the same as all the licensed Star Trek products.

If you truly believe that there is a Star Trek "canon" that matters to fans in this sense, then the writeup you're discussing is certainly "non canon" on its face - because the "definition" of these fighters/shuttles (Chris is correct, MemoryAlpha uses both terms - look at the specifications on the right) would be that the Maquis flew them in an early Deep Space Nine and then they showed up for a few seconds in giant battle scenes. There would be no flavor text about so-and-so class and its original design and whatnot.

Generic Star Trek fans are in for a rude surprise in the next several years. On screen Star Trek every week for twenty years was an embarassment of riches - you could still be a Star Trek fan and talk down to people who like novels and video games because there was always a new episode around the corner. Now that that isn't true, it's going to be like all those other communities that have learned to respect the stories they can get, whatever the form is.
 

Nomad Terror

Rear Admiral
AKAImBatman said:
The Star Trek Universe precludes true fighter craft because the doctrine is that the bigger the ship, the greater its tactical advantage.
I would agree with this up until TNG. After the Federation's encounter with the Borg, we see powerful ships in smaller packages. Some examples of this are the Akira, Steamrunner, Sovereign and, as you mentioned, the Defiant.

It is suggested that the Sovereign could defeat a Galaxy in one-on-one, even if the Sovereign is smaller.
 

AKAImBatman

Spaceman
Bandit LOAF said:
The idea that some things are "canon" and some are not has made everyone very stupid. The fact that there is a Star Trek 'canon' exists *only* as a tool for professional writers who are scripting new episodes.
But the trick is that Star Trek has an extremely rich canon from which assertions may be derived. Thanks to the richness of the Universe, including canon :D Tech Manuals, we know that concepts like a true space fighter don't make sense in the Star Trek universe. What we have for "fighter-craft" (and yes, they are called that to differentiate from regular shuttlecraft like a runabout) are really small starships with sufficiently scaled down equipment. Their tactical ability is so far below the larger ships, that the Maquis are forced to use unorthidox tactics (i.e. one off "tricks") to destroy targets.

I would agree with this up until TNG. After the Federation's encounter with the Borg, we see powerful ships in smaller packages. Some examples of this are the Akira, Steamrunner, Sovereign and, as you mentioned, the Defiant.
These are not smaller ships per-say, but rather more focused ship designs. If you strip the various peaceful roles off of the Galaxy class starship, you suddenly find MASSIVE amounts of space to stick extra stuff. That's part of the reason why war-universe versions of the Enterprise are often fitted with extra weapons or troop carrying space.

It is suggested that the Sovereign could defeat a Galaxy in one-on-one,
Assuming equal tactical ability, then it's almost a certainty. The Galaxy class is a peace-focused vessel with adequate weaponry for defense (remember, there are children on board!), whereas the Sovereign is a more war focused ship with spaces devoted to the latest in military hardware (e.g. Quantum Torpedos).

even if the Sovereign is smaller.
The Sovereign is NOT smaller. Whoever told you that, lied. She might be lighter than the Galaxy class (again, less comfort space) and she may be a different shape. But she is NOT "smaller".
 

Nomad Terror

Rear Admiral
What we see in Sovereign vs Galaxy is that the Sovereign is only slightly longer but almost half the height (24 decks vs 42 decks). The Soverign certainly is smaller.
 
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