Joint Service?

Dragon1

Dragon1

Rear Admiral
Hello all!

I was just thinking, prior to WC2/3, the TC Navy and TC Space Force seem to be somewhat of a joint service. With the exception of the rank table difference and a variation in uniform (typically dark blue with gold pipping instead of light blue with silver pipping), these services would seem to be one.

Tolwyn got his start as a fighter pilot and even seemed to relate better to pilots than to capship officers.

Early in 2654, during the setting of the movie, there would appear to be no difference at all (Blair in the movie was refered to as both a 2nd/1st Lieutenant and a Lieutenant-JG). Interestingly enough, Blair had graduated from the Terran Confederation Space Naval Academy.

Could the Space Force had been a new service formed in 2654 just prior to the Vega Campaign? If so, why would Confed go about creating a new arm of the service for something the Navy appeared to be just as able to deal with.

Any thoughts?
 
IMO the Space Force is the same as modern day Marines. The Marines are a division of the US Navy, but they have separate officer corps., ranks, etc. from the Navy. The Space Force refers specifically to servicemen involved in the fighter wing onboard Navy vessels. As Blair mentioned in WC3, a Colonel in the Space Force was equal in rank to a Captain in the Navy. The novel explained that while Blair was on Eisen's ship, Eisen really couldn't tell Blair how to run the wing. This probably came about after it was well established that starfighters were the key to winning the war. Fighter pilots became the center of the war effort, so Confed made a new branch of service that tied in directly with the Navy since the pilots still need Navy vessels to launch from.
 
AFAIK, there is a TC Navy, which runs the big ships, and a TC Space Force, (corresponding to the Air forces of today), which flies the fighters and bombers.
 
Would I be wrong in thinking that the Space Force came about as an independent branch of the Confed military in the year 2654 after the setting of the movie, but prior to the Vega Campaign?

During the Panther ending in WC4, does Blair become an instructor at the TC Naval Space Academy from where he graduated, or from a new TC Space Force Academy?
 
This actually makes me question what the High Command was thinking, as in -MOST- modern military naval branches, in order to command a carrier one must prove proficency at flying first, by climbing the ranks through a Naval Aviator. It's actually a Law in the United States that non-aviators cannot command a Carrier.

The question then that arises is, how much transition is there between the Space Forces and the more traditional Naval Forces? I would imagine a Carrier Pilot suddenly taking command over a Naval Forces ship wouldn't sit well with the crew, unless as in the Tarawas case it was an emergency.

Likewise, I can't see the Commanding Officer corp of the entire Navy coming out of the Space Forces, that would make it almost useless to serve in the Naval Forces side of things, no chance for advancement.

I dunno. It's an interesting predicament and I can't help but wonder what the High Command was thinking dividing the Forces like that.

The only real advantage I see in that is that it allows Carrier Air Wings to be rotated off of a carrier to some sort of military facility as an intact unit, and to operate in defense of that facility and nearby military locations (IE: They can provide planetary defense) or be rotated back to a Carrier. It gives a bit better mobilization of the Forces.
 
Since Blair and co. started out as Second Lieutenants instead of as Ensigns, I would expect that the TCSF was spun off from the TCN before their time.
 
This actually makes me question what the High Command was thinking, as in -MOST- modern military naval branches, in order to command a carrier one must prove proficency at flying first, by climbing the ranks through a Naval Aviator. It's actually a Law in the United States that non-aviators cannot command a Carrier
Click to expand...

In this situation though, all ships are space ships, whether they are fighters, shuttles, cruisers, or carriers.

The need to have a 'pilot' commanding a carrier instead of a DD or CC skipper would be less relevent in an environment were all things considered are similar (mass being the principal discerning factor).

So in this case, why separate the services at all!

What would divide a naval pilot from a space force pilot? Would it just be the mass index of what they are flying? Or is there some special role for which the SF service offers that we didn't see in the games (perhaps specialized surface strike missions and air forces missions, or even long-ranged strategic bombing type scenarios like the Temblor bomb mission)?

Remember, the Rosie character from the movie was refered to as a Marine specifically by Maniac. So we know that Confed carrier air wings contained multiple-service personnel. This may include both Navy and Army pilots as well as SF and Marine pilots.
 
Dragon1 said:
So in this case, why separate the services at all!

What would divide a naval pilot from a space force pilot? Would it just be the mass index of what they are flying? Or is there some special role for which the SF service offers that we didn't see in the games (perhaps specialized surface strike missions and air forces missions, or even long-ranged strategic bombing type scenarios like the Temblor bomb mission)?

Remember, the Rosie character from the movie was refered to as a Marine specifically by Maniac. So we know that Confed carrier air wings contained multiple-service personnel. This may include both Navy and Army pilots as well as SF and Marine pilots.
Click to expand...

I don't think you can draw much from the Marine comment, but there are separate Confederation Marines and Army branches in addition to the Navy and Space Forces. We see numerous personnel switch between services at many different points in the series, so the separation between services is not as distinct as some people in the thread are thinking.
 
This is an interestinc topic. Lets try and throw some nails at it.

* While Blair attended the "Terran Confederation Space Naval Academy at Hilthros", his school is commonly referred to as the "Space Force Academy" - the Wing Commander Prophecy Official Guide, for instance, uses this term.

* Per the Wing Commander I & II: Ultimate Strategy Guide, only 1/6th of Blair's class ended up becoming fighter pilots. The other 1,000 were "relegated to flying transports, or worse". Blair graduates with the 201st Class, which indicates that the TCSNA at Hilthros has been around since 2453.

* Blair did *not* attend the same school as various flag officers we see: Tolwyn, Banrbdige, Turner, Richards, Bergstrom, Eisen, Sansky, Wilson, etc. all attended the Terran Confederation Service Academy at Houston. That said, we know that this school can also produce Naval Aviators, per Action Stations.

* Characters are often referred to by both Space Naval and Space Forces ranks. The Wing Commander movie uses Space Naval ranks for all the pilots... and the Kilrathi Saga manual often slips into doing this as well. Characters often transfer between services with ease: Blair becomes a Commodore, Paz becomes a 2nd Lt., Bondarevsky becomes a Captain, etc.

* The idea that 'Space Forces' pilots serve on 'Spave Navy' characters originates because later games introduced Navy characters (like Admiral Tolwyn) without an explanation of how their ranks worked... and then even later games created and explicitly stated this arrangement.

* Various movie sources refer to the pilots as 'Marines'.
 
Okay, I actually know very little about this matter (as I freely admit) so I want to throw another bone in the mix and see what LOAF has to say about it...

At the end of Action Stations Tolwyn is given a choice regarding his future career path, assignment to command of a Frigate, and the "Fleet" path versus assignment to a Carrier as a pilot, and the "Space Force" path (Though I don't have any idea if both forces were around at that time.

What does that say about the joint/seperation of services?
 
This could also relate to the Unified Space Command patch that we see in WC4.

Perhaps the WC military doesn't work so much like the US military after all. Think US military more like if it had completed a proposed joining during the late 40s and early 50s (remember, the creation of the dept. of defense was part of that attempted unification of service branches).

Suppose the Confed Military is actually divided into 2 branches. The Ground Forces Commmand and the Unified Space Command. Then this could mean that the TCN and TCSF are actually the same branch, just a different part of it. Really, the only difference between the two is that one has the army rank scale and one has the navy. The uniforms have been practically identical other than lighter or darker shades of color. If the Marine Corps or Marine Forces is part of the Unified Space Command, this would not contradict some of the movie references of pilots being refered to as "marines".

Also, this would allow a character like Hobbes, a Kilrathi cruiser captain, to become a fighter pilot in Confed, then XO of the Victory, and then back to a fighter pilot again without any of the characters thinking this was odd or out of place.
 
Two issues.

Lets take a look at Space Navy ranks in the movie.

My theory is that Naval Aviators are two grades above Space Forces pilots because you don't graduate Flight School until you're a Lieutenant JG.

The ranks in the movie compared to the characters ranks several months later in the game:

Maniac & Blair: 1st Lt. (O3) v. 2nd Lt. (O1)
Bossman: Lt. Cmdr. (O4) v. Maj. (O4)
Angel: Lt. Cmdr. (O4) v. Capt. (O3)
Hunter & Knight: 1st Lt. (O3) v. Capt. (O3)
Paladin: Commodore (O7) v. Maj. (O4)

The only 'necessary' ones are Maniac and Blair who have to be at the bottom of the ladder when WC1 starts -- everyone else can be promoted after the movie. This system would suggest that at the time of the movie Bossman and Angel were 1st Lts. and Hunter and Knight were 2nd Lts.

Paladin doesn't fit because he's a grade too high. My best theory is that he's only a Commodore because of the oft-referenced naval tradition of bumping additional Captains to the brevet rank of Commodore so as to bar there from being two captains on the same ship. A pilot with the rank of Captain (O6) would convert down to Major (O4). Other theories include a demotion for his involvement in the Olympus situation or that his rank was on ly ever part of his deep cover.

Now, the problem is that Blair has a Space Navy rank in the Kilrathi Saga manual. In the article about his treason he's listed as Lt. Cmdr. Blair. The first question is, of course, why? (other characters have Space Forces ranks in the same article)... and the second question is what is his 'actual' rank supposed to be. At the time of the article (late 2656) he'd be a Captain (O3)... though the article doesn't actually talk about him being demoted yet. Any takers?

Second thing - Jason Bondarevsky. Has he always been a Naval Aviator? He's a Lt. Cmdr. at the start of End Run... and in Special Ops 1 he wears Captains bars (O3) but is referred to as 1st Lt. Bondarevsky. Is he really a Naval 1st Lt. (O3) at this point? Bear suggests heavily that Naval Aviators exist in the late 2660s, so that the Space Forces isn't a replacement for anything.

(Note that the "Unified Space Command" is supposed to be a replacement for the war-era "Combined Forces" (shield in star logo) -- whatever either of these things are.)
 
Good points Bandit!

Does anyone know why in WC3 the ranks were switched from the bar/clover leaf/eagle/star system to the funky little box system? Was it a budget thing? The only discerning elements of these ranks was that the TCSF boxes were gold and the TCN boxes were silver. This in a real time military situation would seem to add to confusion as opposed to previous Confed rank/uniform types.
 
It was a combination of a few things, including making the ranks easier to see in super-compresed video and the hope that future FMV technology would let them have "variable" ranks depending on how well you play the game (which would be a lot easier to do with little colored squares).
 
And then when you try to see it from my point of view (Aussie) it gets twice as confusing.
"Ensigns", majors/captains in the air force, 1st Lieutenants in the Navy?!
 
The Confed ranking system is based on the American ranking system as follows:

Naval Officers:
Ship Ranks:
O-1: Ensign
O-2: Junior Lieutenant (a.k.a. Lieutenant Junior Grade)
O-3: Lieutenant
O-4: Lieutenant Commander
O-5: Commander
O-6: Captain
Flag Ranks:
O-7: Commodore
O-8: Rear Admiral
O-9: Vice Admiral
O-10: Admiral

(IIRC, in the modern USA Navy, "Commodore" is an honorary rank, and the ranks are O-7: Rear Admiral, O-8: Vice Admiral, O-9: Admiral, O-10: Fleet Admiral.)

Army/Marine/Space Force Officers:
Unit Ranks:
O-1: 2nd Lieutenant
O-2: 1st Lieutenant
O-3: Captain
O-4: Major
O-5: Lieutenant Colonel
O-6: Colonel
General Ranks:
O-7: Brigadier General
O-8: Major General
O-9: Lieutenant General
O-10: General
 
Actually Confed ranking is a little different...

Naval o2= 2nd Lieutenant
Naval o3= 1st Lieutenant

The Army rank scale actually switches Major-General and Lieutenant-General around.

Side note, I noticed the WCNEWS site lists the ranks with attatched insignia. The naval rank of commander is the same badge as the SF Colonel except that it is silver instead of gold. Although, the only commander we have seen in game is the CAG from the Midway, and her badge appears to be a silver equal sign (equal width rectangles, one above the other, instead of the larger rectangle below smaller rectangle that we see for the SF colonel).
 
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