Is it possible that the confederation could have won the kilrathi war after the Battle of Earth without the Temblor Bomb or Behemoth

Jdawg

Commodore
WC2 definitely did not have more ships. @-danr- mentioned that there's a limit of ten ships per navpoint in WC3. Well, I don't recall if WC2 had any sort of limit of ships per navpoint, but it had a limit of 16 ships per mission. Of those, only 10-12 were generally usable - you had to take into consideration the player, his wingman, the Concordia, her escort destroyer, and sometimes a wing of fighters on patrol around the Concordia. So, you couldn't possibly dream about big battles. The most you would have is a couple of capships and about four enemy fighters.
I dont know either but I remember one of the earlier missions in wc2 where you had to drop of mail to a planet and you meet downtown and at the nav between the concordia and the planet there are a lot of ships
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
That one is a case of seeming like more ships than it is (because you're alone for the first time.) The mission is Niven B and there are only five Sartha.
 

Dundradal

Frog Blast the Vent Core!
There were a lot more ships in wc2, and in wc2 it was one of the few times we got to see Capital ship on capital ship action. In wing Commander 3 I felt like they used the Victory as an excuse because of the limitations of the technology at the time. so you were involved in skirmishes not the actual War in wc3. that's one reason I like Saga so much better it feels like a true War

I wouldn't say there were a lot more ships in WC2. People seem to forget about the capship-on-capship action in WC3. For starters, the Victory gets a whole escort fleet. You see them in space, and you also get some gorgeous views from the bar and bridge. That's just fantastic.

There's a similar number of missions in WC2 and WC3 where multiple cap ships appear. Take the Ariel System - there's 12 cap ships in just three missions, and it leads right into Caliban where you have both the Sheffield and Coventry forward deployed to other nav points where they engage Kilrathi destroyers.

I think Chris is right that the WC3 capship battles sometimes get forgotten. My favorite mission in the entire series is WC3's Hyperion 2. Every nav point has a capship battle starting with destroyers battling it out, then a destroyer against a Kilrathi carrier, and ending in the Ajax blasting away at a Fralthi II. It's just great fun to watch those ships blasting away at each other with all their turrets.

The fact that the Victory has escorts you see throughout the game is a great touch and furthers the immersion that you are on the frontlines of the war. Especially the couple of escort missions where one or two of them show up and then the big reward with Hyperion 2 and you're escorting the "big boys" and get to see one of the best fireworks shows in the series.
 

Sylvester

Vice Admiral
WC2 definitely did not have more ships. @-danr- mentioned that there's a limit of ten ships per navpoint in WC3. Well, I don't recall if WC2 had any sort of limit of ships per navpoint, but it had a limit of 16 ships per mission. Of those, only 10-12 were generally usable - you had to take into consideration the player, his wingman, the Concordia, her escort destroyer, and sometimes a wing of fighters on patrol around the Concordia. So, you couldn't possibly dream about big battles. The most you would have is a couple of capships and about four enemy fighters.

Quarto, did that limit not exist in WC1? I seem to remember missions with more than 16 total ships - for example BiFrost with the Supply Depot had 18 total enemies, and then if you include you, your wingman, the escort Hornet by the Claw and the Claw itself, that would be 22 total ships appearing in that mission.
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Quarto, did that limit not exist in WC1? I seem to remember missions with more than 16 total ships - for example BiFrost with the Supply Depot had 18 total enemies, and then if you include you, your wingman, the escort Hornet by the Claw and the Claw itself, that would be 22 total ships appearing in that mission.
You remember correctly. WC1 had a higher limit - IIRC, 32 ships, though maybe it was 24. There was a couple of missions in SM1 or SM2, where just the kill count of the enemy fighters could be higher than 20, so I think the limit had to be 32.

The question of why WC2 could handle fewer ships than WC1 is an interesting one, for sure. I assume this was a memory management issue (remember: WC2 came out a year after WC1, so it didn't have significantly more powerful hardware at its disposal, while its various new features meant memory was a lot tighter), but this doesn't necessarily make sense, because the big memory issue was having more ship types (each type requiring a full set of sprites to be loaded into memory). Simply having more ship shouldn't have been such a big deal, given that most of these ships will not be seen together. So, there may have been some other issue.
 

YCDTD

Commodore
What I missed most in WC3 from WC2 were escorting bombers or having escorts when I was in a bomber. It did not seem realistic and took me out of the game. A minor complaint though.
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
That also sounds like a case of something cool in WC2 having a bigger impact in memory than what was actually in the game. We really only have escorts in WC2 once or twice. Most of the time in WC2, you're just flying Broadswords/Crossbows without escorts just like in WC3.
 

Star Rider

Rear Admiral
Gwynedd Mission C where you escort Kilroy, and Ghorah Khar Mission C where you escort Alexia, and Yeager against the Kilrathi Strike group preparing to attack Olympus Station, if Memory serves in WC2.

SO1 while they weren't official escorts, Bear along with his wing man join you, and Hobbes for the attack on the Fralthras. Most of the time though they would get themselves shot down or shoot me in the back trying to hit the same ship as me. Only way I could ever win that mission was to pull a Maniac, and have the Fralthras shoot each other by flying between them.
 

AD

Finder of things, Doer of stuff
I don't agree that WC2 feels like more of a war that WC3 despite WC2 being my overall favorite in the series. However I do feel like the bombers in WC3 don't really feel like bombers... They play more like super heavy fighters that happen to carry a ton of missiles. It does make the gameplay feel a bit less varied in some senses, though perhaps that sense is reduced at harder difficulties? Overall I feel like WC3 does sell the desperate nature of confed's situation well enough.
 

EmuMusicFan

Ensign, 2nd Class
There's another question this invites, though: could the Society of Mandarins have been correct? Could the most effective (or perhaps least costly) way to defeat the Kilrathi have been to surrender and then change the Empire from within?
My personal feeling is ... surrender, and try to change the Empire from within ...that is really not a good idea.

If it is as stated in the novel, Baron Jukaga's overthrow of the Emperor failed ... In this situation, as we know, the Emperor's goal was to destroy the Earth. So the answer is already obvious here. What is more, several years later, Nephilim will appear, and end it all.

If Jukaga's overthrow succeded, and then his family got the throne of the Empire... maybe there are more issues worth discussing here. First of all, let's assume that Jukaga's attitude towards humans will not change though he is now the Emperor. Definitely, managing and protecting billions of Terrans is not as simple as it was in the FAWCETT's world, where there were only a few people. More importantly, Jukaga didn't have enough prestige to suppress other clans' insistence on their tradition. So the following situation is uncontrollable.
 

EmuMusicFan

Ensign, 2nd Class
Submitting to the Kilrathi would just enforce that notion into the Kilrathi even more so. It seems to be to be making the same dangerous assumption that the government made during the false peace - assuming the kilrathi have similar primal instincts to humans.
I agree.
I heard that even with large cats raised from people, it is important to show strength and courage (you are not afraid of them), otherwise you will encounter problems, even if they trust and are close to you.
 

mustanger

Rear Admiral
My personal feeling is ... surrender, and try to change the Empire from within ...that is really not a good idea.

If it is as stated in the novel, Baron Jukaga's overthrow of the Emperor failed ... In this situation, as we know, the Emperor's goal was to destroy the Earth. So the answer is already obvious here. What is more, several years later, Nephilim will appear, and end it all.

If Jukaga's overthrow succeded, and then his family got the throne of the Empire... maybe there are more issues worth discussing here. First of all, let's assume that Jukaga's attitude towards humans will not change though he is now the Emperor. Definitely, managing and protecting billions of Terrans is not as simple as it was in the FAWCETT's world, where there were only a few people. More importantly, Jukaga didn't have enough prestige to suppress other clans' insistence on their tradition. So the following situation is uncontrollable.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, so I may be misinterpreting it - if so, I will apologize in advance.

I think it's important to make the distinction that the Kilrathi goals prior to the Battle of Earth are not really stated outright, but we can assume based on information of prior conquests and other tidbits we know of their society that they are typically more prone to subjugation than outright annihilation. They are basically aggressive expansionists, so they would take over worlds and then enslave the native populations. The decision to outright destroy the Human core worlds was out of the norm, but driven by multiple reasons.

As far as the Mandarins are concerned... I find it dubious that they could effect enough change from within in a meaningful period of time before the Kilrathi Empire was either defeated in another conflict, or destroyed by it's own infighting.

The fact is that without the false armistice, humanity had turned the tide and was in position to win the war outright. Narratively speaking, it makes for a more interesting story for Humanity to be on the ropes against an overwhelming foe, rather than slowly crushing a depleted enemy, and the armistice was the storytelling device that sets up the last ditch effort to pull victory from the jaws of defeat.
 

EmuMusicFan

Ensign, 2nd Class
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, so I may be misinterpreting it - if so, I will apologize in advance.

I think it's important to make the distinction that the Kilrathi goals prior to the Battle of Earth are not really stated outright, but we can assume based on information of prior conquests and other tidbits we know of their society that they are typically more prone to subjugation than outright annihilation. They are basically aggressive expansionists, so they would take over worlds and then enslave the native populations. The decision to outright destroy the Human core worlds was out of the norm, but driven by multiple reasons.

As far as the Mandarins are concerned... I find it dubious that they could effect enough change from within in a meaningful period of time before the Kilrathi Empire was either defeated in another conflict, or destroyed by it's own infighting.

The fact is that without the false armistice, humanity had turned the tide and was in position to win the war outright. Narratively speaking, it makes for a more interesting story for Humanity to be on the ropes against an overwhelming foe, rather than slowly crushing a depleted enemy, and the armistice was the storytelling device that sets up the last ditch effort to pull victory from the jaws of defeat.

Thanks for your reply, and... sorry, I still need to work hard to improve my English. :)

Please let me put together my views into a list:

1. Because the length of the war between Terrans and Kilrathi was much longer than Kilrathis' expectations, the degree of hostility between the two sides may have reached a level beyond conventional. Therefore, if the Terrans surrender, the treatment may be even more terrible.

2. Because of the first point, it is uncertain whether the Terrans can maintain their own characteristics of civilization. In fact, I am pessimistic about this.

3. Kilrathi‘s own infighting may erupt between the Ki'ra clan and the Kiranka clan. According to the story, one of the major contradictions between them is the attitude towards the Terrans. If the Kiranka clan wins, in order to show its correctness, it is likely that the Terrans people will be sacrificed.

4. Even if the Ki’ra clan won, we are not sure if Jukaga could maintain respect for Terrans. At best, we can only hope that Jukaga would treat the Terrans like his father Vakka and tutor Harga did to those prisoners in the FAWCETT's world. Not to mention the complexity of managing billions of people. In this case, what would happen, for example, if other clans strongly requested some Terrans as sacrifice? I don't think Jukaga and the Ki'ra clan have enough prestige to suppress other Kilrathis' insistence on their tradition.

5. The best way to get a Kilrathi's approval, is to show your courage and strength. The surrendered Terrans will be despised by these aggressive Kirathi, and likely to become a kind of consumable in the war against Nephilim. How could a Kirathi follow the advice of a surrendered Terran to fight?

6. A friend of mine has said that the Kilrathi civilization needs a systematic and comprehensive failure. I agree with this view point. Even from their standpoint, perhaps such a failure makes progress in their society, though the cost is really high.
 
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L.I.F.

Vice Admiral
A friend of mine has said that the Kilrathi civilization needs a systematic and comprehensive failure. I agree with this view point. Even from their standpoint, perhaps such a failure makes progress in their society, though the cost is really high.
Usually, yes, societies that have an obsession for military adventures, warfare and the warrior idea (whether or not they follow through when it comes to their individual soldier beyond ritual shows of respect that are only a surface thing) tend to need such failures to stop the nonsense where they spend most of their energy into their military. Otherwise, they tend to consider partial failures as reasons to just push harder their military in order to succeed where their previous forces were insufficient or make up justifications for levels of spending that are best qualified as self-destructing. Though at least, the Imperium of Man had the pretty good justification that everyone else wants them dead and has the means to do it, so I guess they get a pass - still suck to be an individual Guardsman/woman.
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
I agree.
I heard that even with large cats raised from people, it is important to show strength and courage (you are not afraid of them), otherwise you will encounter problems, even if they trust and are close to you.
I... don't think we're supposed to draw the comparison with cats quite this literally :). I can just imagine the Kilrathi formulating their strategies based on their knowledge of gorillas ("if we can identify and beat the dominant male, the rest will fall in line!" :D ).
 

mustanger

Rear Admiral
Thanks for your reply, and... sorry, I still need to work hard to improve my English. :)

Actually, your English is pretty good! No worries there.

Please let me put together my views into a list:

1. Because the length of the war between Terrans and Kilrathi was much longer than Kilrathis' expectations, the degree of hostility between the two sides may have reached a level beyond conventional. Therefore, if the Terrans surrender, the treatment may be even more terrible.

I agree with this point, we have certainly seen the hate on both sides ratchet up more as the war drags on. More atrocities, bio-weapons, etc.
2. Because of the first point, it is uncertain whether the Terrans can maintain their own characteristics of civilization. In fact, I am pessimistic about this.

If they surrendered? Certainly, I agree. Even in victory this is a struggle as we see in Wing Commander 4.

3. Kilrathi‘s own infighting may erupt between the Ki'ra clan and the Kiranka clan. According to the story, one of the major contradictions between them is the attitude towards the Terrans. If the Kiranka clan wins, in order to show its correctness, it is likely that the Terrans people will be sacrificed.


4. Even if the Ki’ra clan won, we are not sure if Jukaga could maintain respect for Terrans. At best, we can only hope that Jukaga would treat the Terrans like his father Vakka and tutor Harga did to those prisoners in the FAWCETT's world. Not to mention the complexity of managing billions of people. In this case, what would happen, for example, if other clans strongly requested some Terrans as sacrifice? I don't think Jukaga and the Ki'ra clan have enough prestige to suppress other Kilrathis' insistence on their tradition.

Certainly we see Jukaga have an almost stockholm syndrome with regard to humans, but I agree that even in the occurrence that he were to ascend the throne it would be unlikely that he could make much of a change with regard to how Humans are treated. 99% of Kilrathi simply see them as prey animals anyway, and they would be treated like every other slave race in the best case scenario.

5. The best way to get a Kilrathi's approval, is to show your courage and strength. The surrendered Terrans will be despised by these aggressive Kirathi, and likely to become a kind of consumable in the war against Nephilim. How could a Kirathi follow the advice of a surrendered Terran to fight?

It's sort of an odd thing with them, though. Their honor system respects courage, but their xenophobia causes a dichotomy where they will see individual acts of bravery among humans and give them credit, but it never extends beyond that act. They could maybe see an individual Human as brave or courageous, but as a species they never really get there until they are defeated. Even then, we really only see the leadership's perspective rather than that of the typical Kilrathi soldier or civilian. It's been far too long since I've read False Colors to remember if we are given a lot of insight from the Kilrathi perspective in that novel.

6. A friend of mine has said that the Kilrathi civilization needs a systematic and comprehensive failure. I agree with this view point. Even from their standpoint, perhaps such a failure makes progress in their society, though the cost is really high.

You'll have to expand on the last point for me. Are we talking about a reorganization of their government? My opinion on that is that their collapse was inevitable, either from finally being beaten by an external threat or from tearing themselves apart in an internal civil war. What would arise from a civil war is hard to say...
 

EmuMusicFan

Ensign, 2nd Class
Thanks for your encouragement!

OK. I think I need to read False Colors right now.

Exactly. It is mentioned several times that according to the history of Kirathi, the clans will fight each other if the Empire does not expand. They solved the vertical clan membership through strict hierarchy, and the contradiction between the clans was to release pressure through civil war and external expansion. Unfortunately, they got from the Shata the ability to interstellar long-distance travel too early, leading them to have too strong expansion capabilities too early. Judging from several imperial noble conferences in the novel, most of the clan leaders‘ ideas were stale and barbaric.

Considering Melek nar Kiranka's expression in WC4, optimistically speaking, we could cautiously expect that at least a portion of the Kilrathi people will gradually accept at least parts of human civilization if their social form and structure could be changed. Because of their hierarchy and obedience, as long as a large clan noble leaders accept human civilization, the issues of soldiers and civilians of this clan might be relatively easier to handle. Of course, these are all optimistic estimates. Such kind of examples do exist in human history, but might be not too common.

It is interesting to note that the leader family of the Ki'ra clan and Melek are representatives of the enlightened progressives. I think from the foreword of Action Stations, the Ki'ra clan is releasing goodwill to the Terrans, and the meaning is that even before Kilrathi was defeated, the leader of the Ki'ra clan had, say, a good impression on the Terrans, and there was the possibility of getting along with each other in peace.
 
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EmuMusicFan

Ensign, 2nd Class
Actually, I have been making an idea recently. What would happen if some enlightened Kilrathi people come to Earth, live with Terrans in... say, a university, and sit together to discuss history and exchange opinions? I am trying to make a demo of a visual novel, and trying to draw some portraits.

"Is it possible that you Terrans could have won us kilrathi without the Temblor Bomb or Behemoth?" 😗
"Is it really OK to talk to you about this? Don't you hit me?" 🥵
"It's okay, no probem at least in the classroom. " 😄

Here is a screenshot of the portraits.

draft20200128.jpg
 
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