In WC3 Tolwyn is Perfect

About the cook, it's not the fact that he had one, but the way he said it, "Now, let's see if we can't get some decent food." McDowell's tone was perfect to make it sound insulting.

That "transfer of loyalties" line is kind of the clincher for me, though.

What I like most about the Tolwyn character is the paradox. He really has a sort of noble heart and grand sweeping ideals about the greater good, but he is also narcissitic [sic] and tends to think about people more as objects than as real human beings. I think this is what ultimately lets him take the steps with the Black Lance that he does.
 
Eh, the whole "madness" thing is pretty weak simply because they didn't have to do much repainting. Anyone who'd played previous entries in the series knew Tolwyn was a hardass from day one. It wasn't hard to swallow simply because he was written to be disliked. The whole "madness" thing is also the cheapest sucker punch in the series and a bit better written in the books where he's at least sympathetic.
 
If it is madness, there is a method to it.

Think about it: as an Admiral in a large scale interstellar war, he had to order probably hundereds to thousands of people to their deaths on a regular basis, if not even daily. Beginning to see people as objects would be a normal psychological defense mechanism; if he thought about each of those casualties in depth as a person, he would be very vulnerable to burnout. Having done therapy with a series of military families, I have actually seen this sort of mechanism in place for soldiers returning from the front lines. So, that being my experience, naturally that's one of the ways I would begin to see the character of Tolwyn. That doesn't mean it's the one right way to see it, it's just my take on it due to my experience and to the way I look at the world.

While it is more than a little silly for me to apply a psychological analysis to the Tolwyn character, in my mind I see Tolwyn's hard outside shell as being at least due in part to that sort of depersonalizing, even to the point of becoming narcissistic or megolamanical, defense mechanism. Then, when the war was over, he failed to make the transistion into thinking about people as people again, and his genocidal actions could actually be seen as the maladaptive product of a normal psychological defense mechanism being pushed to a pathological level. His focus, even his compulsive obsession, was the progress of the human race. And, when when you take the humanity and morality out of the equation, forced evolution doesn't seem like a bad way to do it. He wouldn't necessarily have to be crazy (meaning delusional or otherwise schizophrenic or manic) to think this way. He would just need to have a lot of experience thinking that way as a defense mechanism, and get stuck in the process.

But, however you like think about it (it is fiction, and the nice thing is that we can all have our own take on it... the important thing is that we enjoy it), I think there's one thing we can agree on: Mr. McDowell did a fantastic job as Tolwyn. With even the slightest voice inflections, he could take even a harmless comment and turn it into a self-righteous, stinging accusation all while pretending to be polite.

For me, I both resented Admiral Tolwyn, but also felt a deep empathy for him. While I did feel a little glad to see him get his come-uppance when his project failed and Paladin succeeded, I didn't want to believe that he was responsible for the Black Lance atrocities, and I was sad to see him sitting in that cell and ultimately hanging himself. Props to Mr. McDowell for making a very human character: not a raving madman, but a very believable human.
 
Now if this wasn't the most in-depth character analysis in a video game that I've seen for a long time. There's really somebody who knows the DSM IV. Thanks Sphynx!

What Malcolm McDowell did was one of the rare things happening in games: Bring a character to life, and make him believable. Before, in WC1/2, Tolwyn was a scoffing, aloof and impersonal talking head without any personality. Even in the novels, each one describes Tolwyn differently and doesn't come to terms with his complex set of motivations, traits, values and beliefs. He is the noble warrior in one book, the shrewd schemer in the next, the old-style knight in yet another. Mr. McDowell did give him a face, a voice, a unique personality that is not only believable, but utterly convincing in his actions. As far as FMV in games goes, it's one of its finest moments - it shows the potential of the medium at its fullest, by presenting a character that even makes the hero (and therefore the player) uneasy whenever he meets him.

And I think that's the main strength behind Tolwyn's character: He's someone the player is afraid of. Whenever he turns up, it spells trouble in capital letters, and you can't do anything against it. No enemy, no monster can do what he does - he's as real as any bad-tempered teacher or boss that you may meet in your day-to-day life, just blown up to the game's proportions. He isn't evil, just so totally different from your own way of thinking that it makes your life hard if you have to even talk to him, or collaborate in his plans.

In the end, he turns out a villain - which I found a bit weak. Again, great acting (the trial and prison scenes are really memorable), but ultimately the "wrong" explanation: He lived for his ideals, so he turned out mad. Madness is a way out that's far too easy for a character with that complexity - it's a dead giveaway to tell the players: "It's allright, he was mental all the time, and you were right all the time."
Tolwyn might be the most complex and the most fascinating character in the game, so a little more care for his end would have been appropriate. But thinking about another military leader's end after having caused horrendous atrocities for the cause of improving the human race - anything else might be too much.
 
What Malcolm McDowell did was one of the rare things happening in games: Bring a character to life, and make him believable. Before, in WC1/2, Tolwyn was a scoffing, aloof and impersonal talking head without any personality. Even in the novels, each one describes Tolwyn differently and doesn't come to terms with his complex set of motivations, traits, values and beliefs. He is the noble warrior in one book, the shrewd schemer in the next, the old-style knight in yet another. Mr. McDowell did give him a face, a voice, a unique personality that is not only believable, but utterly convincing in his actions. As far as FMV in games goes, it's one of its finest moments - it shows the potential of the medium at its fullest, by presenting a character that even makes the hero (and therefore the player) uneasy whenever he meets him.
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I disagree -- Malcolm McDowell is a stock villain actor. Need an antagonist on a budget? He's your man! Admiral Tolwyn in WC3 is no different from Doctor Soran or that fellow who hated Tank Girl. Malcolm McDowell is a cool actor, but he plays the same guy over and over -- he just happens to do such a good job of playing that one character that it impresses everyone.

Tolwyn is *not* well written in the FMV games -- he's *only* an overbearing jerk (/evil terror) in every scene of the game. There is *no* scene with McDowell as Tolwyn where we're lead to feel anything positive about the man.

He's mean to our character, to all the other characters we've come to assosciate with and his plans are crazy-slash-egotistical. You *never* go "Well, Tolwyn hates Blair, but he really wants to win the war." Blair is 100% right, Tolwyn is 100% wrong and there's no middle ground. "Egotistical prick out to piss off everyone on the ship and win the war on his own" isn't a good characterization.

Compare this to Wing Commander II. Tolwyn shows up threatening us for something we didn't do, and we butt heads with him throughout the game... but at the same time, we see him and Paladin (our most sympathetic character) acting like old friends. When Blair complains about Tolwyn to Angel and Sparks, they both defend him! They know Blair got a raw deal, but Tolwyn is their commander and he's been through hell with him! *That's* well done.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
I disagree -- Malcolm McDowell is a stock villain actor. Need an antagonist on a budget? He's your man!
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I'll run the risk of saying this supports my claim. I enjoyed the fact that McDowell played a heroic asshole of a commander in WC3 - but to see him turn into Space Nazi Hitler (with podium hitting action!) was just too obvious. It was like they were thinking "We have McDowell! Lets make him a baddy!".

A to B to C.
 
My take on Tolwyn: since I (gasp) haven't played WC3 yet, I can't comment on him. I just haven't been able to track down a copy, and I have a thing against EBay that I may have to put aside for a while. :p

In WC4, there is one scene where I think Tolwyn presents a positive side, and that's when you first encounter him again and he returns you to active duty. That's when I really thought Tolwyn was turning over a new leaf, and being a nice guy, in a way - because really, everybody knows what's good for Blair, and going out and playing Owen Lars isn't it. :p

The whole Space Nazi Hitler thing was bad though... I didn't like how they handled him, but the acting was phenomenal. I don't know McDowell well enough to bash him for playing the same character over and over, but he captured Tolwyn's villainy in WC4 very well.

I do say though, that WC2 Tolwyn was far better scripted. WONDERFUL character.
 
Sphynx said:
About the cook, it's not the fact that he had one, but the way he said it, "Now, let's see if we can't get some decent food." McDowell's tone was perfect to make it sound insulting.

That "transfer of loyalties" line is kind of the clincher for me, though.
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It could depend somewhat on what you say to him.. I can't recall the dialogue behind the "transfer of loyalties" comment- Perhaps you can refresh us? I don't know his responses to every dialogue choice. I only know that I played through WC3 recently and I thought he behaved phenominally. I would even dare say that in some instances he was the OPPOSITE of being a jerk! In some instances he was extraordinarily polite. Case in point: When Blair accuses him of usurping an admiral could be permitted to verbally rip him a new one- what is a wing commander thinking by talking to an admiral like that!? Instead of ripping into Blair, Tolwyn just calmly clarifies for Blair that "admiral's by definition do not usurp".

As for the food comment: He may not be insulting the Victory's cook because he had never tasted the cook's food as he had just then arrived on the Victory. With that in mind it could mean a number of things, none of which are particularly offensive: Maybe he's unsure if he can get some decent food, because soldiers rations that taste good are difficult to find (an attempt to relate to the crew as they're all dealing with good food being hard to come by in war times). Maybe he simply says this to politely acknowledge that his cook will have first picks from the rations (so the Victory's cook won't be upset with his cook when he takes the best food). He should get the best food because he's an admiral- and as someone mentioned earlier, he's old and is more prone to ill health. etc. etc....
 
LeHah said:
I enjoyed the fact that McDowell played a heroic asshole of a commander in WC3
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Actually, I made this thread to state my impression that he wasn't even an asshole in WC3. Maybe from the 2 or 3 times I've played through WC3 I didn't choose a response which would evoke an asshole comment. I don't see him as an asshole even though I sensed strongly that the writers were trying to make him an asshole. I'm not sure about the whole dialogue involving the "transfer of loyalties" comment, but as you can see from these posts, all other WC3 comments mentioned so far can be perceived as acceptable and at times even polite.
 
Loaf, I beg to differ - while your points are true in fact, they are a matter of perspective. I tried to shift into a comparison across games and genres, you focus on the role of Tolwyn inside the game. But even if we change paradigmata, I'd like to add some points:

Bandit LOAF said:
Malcolm McDowell is a cool actor, but he plays the same guy over and over -- he just happens to do such a good job of playing that one character that it impresses everyone.
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Maybe a bad one to start - but you can tag the same thing on almost any actor in the games who had some successful movies before. Hammill, Prinze, Jason Bernard, even John Rhys-Davies all play the characters the audience expects of them. Probably the only one who is totally out of character is Ginger Allen *cough*...

Tolwyn is *not* well written in the FMV games -- he's *only* an overbearing jerk (/evil terror) in every scene of the game. There is *no* scene with McDowell as Tolwyn where we're lead to feel anything positive about the man.
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His actions are consistent and his logic is understandable - which makes him pretty well written in my opinion, at least for the standards for FMV games. That doesn't imply that the audience needs to feel positive for him - sympathetic is something different.

You *never* go "Well, Tolwyn hates Blair, but he really wants to win the war." Blair is 100% right, Tolwyn is 100% wrong and there's no middle ground.
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If you only take the in-game Tolwyn and exclude the books, that is a valid *objective* opinion. But especially in the trial dialogues in WC3, I was impressed by the self-stabilizing system of his morals and motives - and it reminded me more than once of some management guys I had the pleasure to meet during my working life. Point: He may be wrong (morally, ethically, politically, logically), but he's in the position to have his word count, and success would have given him legitimation. Subjectivity rules in hindsight.

Sheesh, here I am defending the villain. Loaf, in-game I loathe Tolwyn too - but as a spectator, I am amazed how well his character functions sometimes.
 
I have to agree that Tolwyn reminded me of Dr. Soran. Seems like a nice enough guy at first but ends up having a secret agenda that will kill billions and he'll kill you if you get in the way of that agenda.
 
BanditLOAF:
Blair is 100% right, Tolwyn is 100% wrong and there's no middle ground.
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But not in WC3! Blairs attempts to fault Tolwyn in WC3 pretty much always fall flat on their face. Case in point: "Admirals, by definition, do not usurp." Another case where Tolwyn shines despite criticism is when Tolwyn expects that Eisen has a "leaky ship" with a traitor on board. Eisen is extremely resentful of this comment, and once again Tolwyn appears to be a jerk.. but once again.. Tolwyn's right!
 
Yeah, but if Tolwyn hadn't grounded history's greatest fighter pilot on a backwater station for ten years on false charges, Blair would have already won the war for Confed by then.
 
Tolwyn was guilty of genocide in WC3 - the planet that was uninhabited was a kilrathi world, probably a slave planet. Also, once Paladin arrives, you find out that Confed has kept him out of the loop, that he does not know of another solution that eventrually went on to destroy kilrah (please note i still havent completed WC3, so im half-guessing) and prevent the invasion of earth.

Also, morally, hes guilty of it as in WC2, he placed the greatest pilot Confed had on the backwater station (as McGruff said). If you were in his position, what would you have done: accept that the kilrathi had the new weapon, or imprison the pilot who had the potential to give every pilot who flew with him the morale boast and potentially win the war without loosing the concordia?
 
But not in WC3! Blairs attempts to fault Tolwyn in WC3 pretty much always fall flat on their face. Case in point: "Admirals, by definition, do not usurp." Another case where Tolwyn shines despite criticism is when Tolwyn expects that Eisen has a "leaky ship" with a traitor on board. Eisen is extremely resentful of this comment, and once again Tolwyn appears to be a jerk.. but once again.. Tolwyn's right!
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Both cases are stretching - Blair is absolutely right about Tolwyn, he's there to take over the ship for absolutely no reason other than to achieve glory for himself. There's absolutely no reason for Tolwyn to relieve Eisen of command -- Tolwyn is overseeing the entire opration, not the day to day operations of a light carrier.

Tolwyn is certainly equally at fault in the case of Hobbes -- since it was Tolwyn who championed Hobbes' Space Forces career... and it was Tolwyn who, per the novel, chose the Victory as his flagship *specifically* because he valued Hobbes' skills.

Yeah, but if Tolwyn hadn't grounded history's greatest fighter pilot on a backwater station for ten years on false charges, Blair would have already won the war for Confed by then.
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Eh, Blair is largely a victim of circumstance -- he was a great pilot, but with the exception of some of the events in the movie, he had no *unique* skills.

Tolwyn was guilty of genocide in WC3 - the planet that was uninhabited was a kilrathi world, probably a slave planet.
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That's not a very logical conclusion to jump to. All we hear about Loki VI is that there's a Kilrathi military base there.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
Eh, Blair is largely a victim of circumstance -- he was a great pilot, but with the exception of some of the events in the movie, he had no *unique* skills.
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He had the unique ability to accomplish singlehandedly anything that was even remotely possible for one man to do with a single fighter and survive - every time. So much so that by the opening of WC2, he already had the attention of the top Kilrathi royalty. I also seem to remember Tolwyn himself saying something to the effect that Blair flies with superhuman skill. All having nothing to do with the Pilgrim garbage.
 
He had the unique ability to accomplish singlehandedly anything that was even remotely possible for one man to do with a single fighter and survive - every time. So much so that by the opening of WC2, he already had the attention of the top Kilrathi royalty.
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So did Maniac, though. Blair was a great pilot, but not someone whose skill was above and beyond everyone else. He certainly had his share of failures when the stakes were entirely in his hands -- he couldn't save the Tiger's Claw, he was shot down at the Battle of Earth, he couldn't save Locanda...

I also seem to remember Tolwyn himself saying something to the effect that Blair flies with superhuman skill.
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I can't think of a quote like that - maybe you should cite it.

All having nothing to do with the Pilgrim garbage.
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... or does it?
 
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