I would like to be the first person to express my grave reservations about

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Mike-L

Spaceman
No offense, but Wing Commander has *never* been a space simulator beyond the ad copy on the box. It's *always* been an immersive arcade game.
In that case there exist maybe two or tree games that are actually *space simulators* like the Frontier maybe. I used term "space sim" because it is commonly used when referring to games like WC, Freespace, Starlancer, X-wing etc.
 

gwydion

Spaceman
Quick question LOAF (or anyone else who would care to answer) - would you prefer a follow on game to Wing Commander: Prophecy/Secret Ops in the same style as WC3/4/Prophecy, or what they're planning on releasing?

I have no experience with XBox live, so from what i'm hearing it will be quite a big achievement and will be a must have game for people with XBLA, which can only mean increased exposure for Wing Commander, which is great... but I sincerely hope this isn't how the WC legacy will be continued in the years to come.

At least we still have the fan mods to look forward to in the near future.

I'm so confused about how I feel about this game! New Wing Commander: GREAT. Arcadey galaga style multiplayer with no plot: :(
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
(At least in my mind, EA was more 'distant' and less intrusive when it came to game development, whereas in this case my guess would be that it is them dictating the basic specs of the game to the new developer they have chosen.)
Well, there's the problem with all of this -- in *your* mind. No developer who lived through Origin in the early 90s would call EA distant or unintrusive (even *before* the buyout)... and no current EA producer is rubbing his hands together and plotting how to best screw over *your* favorite franchise (be it C&C, Wing Commander, NFS or... whatever you have some small problem with). A public that knows absolutely nothing about the history or how games are made has invented their own set of increasingly paranoid and elaborate corporate conspiracy theories... and it's just so silly. It's unbelievable that someone could possibly react to a new Wing Commander game with 'how can I convince myself they're trying to screw me this time?'

I don't know a single fan of the original C&C series that likes Generals. Generals does have a following, but as far as I know it is a completely different crowd from the followers of the original series.
I agree with your criticism of Generals absolutely (although the motives you've ascribed to it are nonsense)... but I think this is a bit extreme -- one of our own staff members, ace, is a hard-core C&C 'fanboy' from when the series was new... and he lvoes Generals. Individual communities do this to themselves -- decide everyone is out to get them, and that everything good must be secretly bad... and it's just awful.

When the first rumors about Prophecy started coming out, I was convinced that it would be the end of the franchise. A new enemy, a new engine, weird new ships... hell, we thought the main character was going to be a woman with the callsign "Cashy"!
Hehe, yeah -- and how can they do it without Chris Roberts?! :)
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Battlefield 1942, BFV, Battlefield 2, Battlefield 2142....wheres the new innovation?
That's kind of funny, because I actually had some involvement in a "Wing Commander Battlefield" project some years back. The guy in charge left EA and it never went too far... but that's literally what it was.

Quick question LOAF (or anyone else who would care to answer) - would you prefer a follow on game to Wing Commander: Prophecy/Secret Ops in the same style as WC3/4/Prophecy, or what they're planning on releasing?
I believe this product is *absolutely* necessary. If EA went ahead and spent twenty million dollars on a large scale WC project and then the press responded with 'haha, remember Mark Hamill?', it would be over.

Arena is a good return for Wing Commander for several reasons. The biggest in my mind is because unlike a next gen console WC, this game absolutely pushes the boundries. XBLA is one setting in modern gaming that has some very restrictive requiremenets -- the file size (50 megs!), the bandwidth allowed, etc, etc. Arena blows away everything else that's ever been released on the service, by a wide margin. It's going to sell to both people who are fans of XBox gaming and to WingNuts... and it will be a hit. They picked a good strategy for bringing back the franchise.

I'm so confused about how I feel about this game! New Wing Commander: GREAT. Arcadey galaga style multiplayer with no plot:
To be clear, the ships in Arena act like they do in Wing Commander -- shields, armor, multiple gun selection, etc. It's not a big 'one shot one kill' arcade battlefield.

I'm not saying Arena is what I've been hoping for, and to be honest, I don't have an Xbox or broadband, so I'll probably never play it.
That's sad. Are you still in Maryland? We could throw an Arena party when it comes out.
 

Steltek

Rear Admiral
I never said that my dislike for the new game was anything more than my personal opinion, based on my personal likes/dislikes and experiences.

As for EA: Of cours they are not out there saying 'how can I ruin all of these franchises that I still hold from the old days', but I also thing that they're prime objective for holding their franchises is money. Yes, they have an interest in making the game sell, and they also have an interest in making it not suck to the general public. They however have no interest in shutting up fans of the old series like me. If everybody but me buys the game and thinks it is great, EA will be happy, but I will still dislike it. (Yeah, I'm being egoistic I know but again, I'm merely voicing my personal opinion, likes and dislikes here, and not stating that everybody else's will be the same.)

As I also wrote above: You seem to have inside informaiton on EA's goals with this game that is not available to us. Without these bits of information, all I see is a title with a Wing Commander name that doesn't feature what I liked about the WC games. If they indeed make THAT game, after having garnered enough money through Arena, then yes, Arena will have been a great step. Until then, I'm still the sceptical, corporate conpiracy theorist who keeps an eye out for reviews of the final product.
 

Aplha 1-1

Spaceman
To be clear, the ships in Arena act like they do in Wing Commander -- shields, armor, multiple gun selection, etc. It's not a big 'one shot one kill' arcade battlefield.
Bogies 6 o'clock! pull up pull up!
Oh wait.....I dont think i can anymore, just another silly concern from a flyboy
 

Pedro

Admiral
Well this isn't a true sequel, hence its inevitable that some people would see the glass as half empty. Personally my view changes dependent upon whether I look at it as a stand alone title or a stepping stone.
It looks cool, I've no doubt I'd be downloading it with or without the Wing Commander name attatched, but heck, I too will have reservations until there is a full fledged title with a storyline. I think its only natural to be nervous, this is going to be such a crucial juncture for the franchises future.
 

gwydion

Spaceman
I believe this product is *absolutely* necessary. If EA went ahead and spent twenty million dollars on a large scale WC project and then the press responded with 'haha, remember Mark Hamill?', it would be over.
What reason would the press have for doing that? Hamill's career wasn't going anywhere when he started doing Wing Commander so it's not like it damaged his reputation or anything. If anything having a known movie star in a computer game can only bolster the reputation of the game.

Arena is a good return for Wing Commander for several reasons. The biggest in my mind is because unlike a next gen console WC, this game absolutely pushes the boundries. XBLA is one setting in modern gaming that has some very restrictive requiremenets -- the file size (50 megs!), the bandwidth allowed, etc, etc. Arena blows away everything else that's ever been released on the service, by a wide margin. It's going to sell to both people who are fans of XBox gaming and to WingNuts... and it will be a hit. They picked a good strategy for bringing back the franchise.
I didn't know what kind of restrictions were on XBLA, but it sounds like it's a fine accomplishment. I just wish this was announced as a spin off to a bigger game in development.

To be clear, the ships in Arena act like they do in Wing Commander -- shields, armor, multiple gun selection, etc. It's not a big 'one shot one kill' arcade battlefield.
That's good news. Although admittedly I dont like the pickup system which adds another ship onto your wing which mimics you exactly. I'd rather an AI that protected you or you could command to do things.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
As for EA: Of cours they are not out there saying 'how can I ruin all of these franchises that I still hold from the old days', but I also thing that they're prime objective for holding their franchises is money. Yes, they have an interest in making the game sell, and they also have an interest in making it not suck to the general public. They however have no interest in shutting up fans of the old series like me.
It's amazing to me that people think this is some kind of revelation. A prime example for *every product ever* is making money. From the great American novel to any Wing Commander game ever, money was the ultimate goal.

In this case, though, EA has gone through some hoops to cater to Wing Commander fans. JUst look at any of the rhetoric -- they say so in the press release, the media event hands ons talk about that fact...

As I also wrote above: You seem to have inside informaiton on EA's goals with this game that is not available to us.
Hehe, again, here's the penchant for conspiracy theory. :) If I have inside information, and I've expressed it in public... it's not really inside anymore, is it?

Bogies 6 o'clock! pull up pull up!
Oh wait.....I dont think i can anymore, just another silly concern from a flyboy
Up and down movement is done via the maneuvering system. It sounds complicated, but it's very natural on the gamepad.
 

remo

Spaceman
This game is a step in the wrong direction for the Wing Commander Universe. EA has finally played their WC card, and they played it from the bottom of the deck.
I wholeheartedly agree, and I'm actually kind of shocked that this appears to be the minority view.

Like everyone else I was ecstatic to hear the announcement of a new Wing Commander game... until I saw the video. This game appears to offer very little of the WC experience that sucked so many of us in for hours and hours on end. WC isn't about meaningless deathmatches fought across a 2D plane, it's a space opera. It's about completing missions and taking territory. It's never knowing if you wingman is going to make it back with you. It's about cockpits. It's about space funerals. It's about streaking through enemy lines to destroy a world.

And yes while it was never a true flight sim, at least the basics were there -- some hellacious dogfights were possible. Now your biggest decision is going to be whether you're going to turn left or turn right.

This is not Wing Commander, it's Doom in space. Actually it's not even Doom -- it's basically Space War, from way back in 1962, with prettier graphics.

And don't kid yourselves -- this isn't about testing the waters for a fully fledged WC game, it's about selling a few more copies of a mediocre title by slapping a existing brand on it.
 

Steltek

Rear Admiral
Of course the old Wing Commander games were produced to make money. Of course the WC4 engine was not changed that much from the WC3 engine to save money and render it more profitable. That concept can however be driven ad absurdum (How many more Fifa games that look exactly the same do we need?) and makes EA get labelled as 'produces more of the same'.

As for the inside information, you've not expressed it in the public, you just sound like you have it in stating that Arena is the correct first step in the strategy, making me assume you know the rest of the strategy from a reliable/inside source. (may or may not be true)

Conspiracy or not, what I read in the press release (XBL Arcade with the restrictions already mentioned, multiplayer focussed, ...) makes me feel that I will not like the game. The fact that it comes from EA (whom I have come to dislike, and I have no reason to hide that) and a developer I don't know and find no references to good games from, only adds to that. Being somebody who likes to put his money where his mouth is, I would love to shell out money for a new Wing Commander game to get EA to consider reviving the series as it was. Paying for a game that I won't play and isn't the game I want them to make afterwards however is not an option.
 

Evan

Rear Admiral
It is more Wing Commander than Generals was a C&C, I think. Despite that, I think Arena just follows the A-Code titles very well. Look at Armada and Academy. Oh and look what will happen to C&C after Generals this year.

EA tries to get the WC-Fans, look at the logo, the ships, the style in common. I think it is a chance for WC either to go up or down. But all in all now we know, that EA knows Wing Commander and that´s a good thing to know.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Did something great really happen? Is the parade actually deserved? Yes, the Wing Commander name has been resurrected, whether that is a good or bad thing is, at least in my opinion, debatable.
A quote suddenly comes to mind: "The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."

Wing Commander has been a long, long lasting gaming series that has had a wide range of different storytelling mediums. Simply because you're "debating" - which you're not, you're just pissing down everyone's leg to hear yourself speak - doesn't mean you have a valid point.

Here is another quote that applies: "Everyone has the right to an informed opinion." (Harlan Ellison)

You obviously are not informed in the slightest. Knee-jerk (emphasis on the second word) reactions to a brand new annoucement don't really fly, considering Arena isn't even 24 hours old, and yet here we have you throwing out the idea that simply because it's not in the same gaming format as (most) of the other WC games, it's a step-back or some other asinine rhetoric bullshit.

By your line of thought, the movie, cartoon series, CCG, novels, Armada Campaign Mode, toys and all other tie-ins are invalid as well - not because you can make a point of it, but because you don't like it, despite the fact that they're embraced by the community and part of the whole WC experience.

There are words that were once said of Skeet Ulrich that apply to you at the moment: "There is nothing good about you or anything you do."
 

Edfilho

Cry some more!
The sad thing is that I thought that, after my post and Loaf's, people would start using their braincases (Eisen, captain, 2669).

Instead, the number of stupid posts filled with stupidity only increased.
 

Steltek

Rear Admiral
So just because the game is not released yet, I have to chime into the general hype that it will be great and am not entitled to voice my concerns (Which apparently some people, even though they're a minority, share.)? If we read the same press release, how is it that you're more informed than me and entitled to state that this game will be great? If that's your only argument, then I guess this shouldn't be a forum/discussion board. I'm not trying to piss down everybody's leg, I'm merely asking that people also take a critical look at the new game. Seeing that such is apparently not wanted by most of the visited here, I guess I'll shut up now, lest somebody again decides that a personal attack on myself is better than arguing.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
So just because the game is not released yet, I have to chime into the general hype that it will be great and am not entitled to voice my concerns
Your concerns are built on nothing, though. Not only are they silly and trite - but theres no foundation of logic for your qualms to be built on. "OH NOS ITS NTO THE SAMES!" is awfully silly - all the great gaming series are built on the innovation that Arena is showing. Otherwise, every Grand Theft Auto and Half-Life would still be like Pole Position and Wolfenstein 3D. (Though, theres nothing wrong with any of those games either)

If we read the same press release, how is it that you're more informed than me and entitled to state that this game will be great?
I don't need to be better informed than you. The deductive logic is very simple - Wing Commander is a great gaming series built on (shock!) great games. Why would Arena be any different? If anything, it has to be better than average, as it now has to fight against 8 years of competition, a new gaming format and a generation of kids who've never chased a Krant with nothing but some lasers and a dumbfire.
 

remo

Spaceman
Your concerns are built on nothing, though. Not only are they silly and trite - but theres no foundation of logic for your qualms to be built on. "OH NOS ITS NTO THE SAMES!" is awfully silly - all the great gaming series are built on the innovation that Arena is showing. Otherwise, every Grand Theft Auto and Half-Life would still be like Pole Position and Wolfenstein 3D. (Though, theres nothing wrong with any of those games either)
Founded on "nothing"? They've removed an entire plane from the game. That doesn't sound like progress. Wing Commander is going backwards, not forwards. It's being dumbed down, not built up.

GTA is a great example -- it went from a simple top-down driving game to the big expansive world where you could do just about anything. In Arena's case, it's quite the opposite.
 

WildCat

Cadet
Steltek, we all want a new story driven WC game but we've been waiting nearly 10 years for a new game and now finally one has been announced!

I have my own mixed feelings about how different this game will be to those that came before but from what I can see it's likely to be financially successful which increases the likelyhood that we'll see a new single player WC in the future. Things haven't looked this bright in a long time!

Personally I will be doing my patriotic duty as a long time WC fan. I will buy an Xbox 360, subscribe to Live, buy the game and I'll bloody well enjoy it!
 

Edfilho

Cry some more!
Don't be whiny. Don't play victim. READ THE ARGUMENTS before ranting about your right to be stupid.

This has nothing to do with you and me having fun with WCArena, this is about Arena being the MOST INTELLIGENT way EA could revive the WC Franchise.

That's got nothing to do with fanboyish whining. This is an objective analysis:

A) consoles are the big thing now.
B) the Xbox 360 is the leader in the current gen.
C) Making a new full sized WC game would cost a LOT of money.
D) There are no big games like WC on the market, hence, the genre is an unknown variable.
E) you can make smaller, cheaper Multiplayer games in the XBOX360.
F) it is easy to gauge their success.

So EA is doing TWO different things with Arena:

1) charting the waters and gauging how much interest the WC brand can generate, and how much money they could possibly make with it.
2) raising the WC flag and presenting the brand and franchise to the new generation of players.

It is plain for everyone with half a brain to see that these are two EXCELLENT news for the WC community.

If WC Arena is a big hit (which i think it can be), it will pave the way for a new, BIG wc game.

Thing is, it's a lot easier for a cheap Mp game that's gonna be the KING of Live Arcade in terms of graphics and mp modes to be wildly successful.

Really, I'm not actually excited about the game itself simply because I cannot afford a Xbox 360 in brazil. But I'm thrilled with what this game means. As we all should be, not because we're fanboys, but for several VERY solid reasons.

So, unless you can demonstrate that my reasoning is incorrect, don't bother whining because you wanted a game like WCP NOW! You guys are sounding like spoiled children with no perspective.
 

Don

Rear Admiral
Every game that enters a new era of gaming deserves a chance, and so does this one. So don't detest to what it looks and feels like as well as to what it may bring, its too early to pass any judgements or be so over-critical about it.
 
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