How can the Kilrathi be clueless about the temblor bomb IF you don't pursue Hobbes?

boringnickname

Rear Admiral
Hi, this is my first post on this forum.. well, now to the point:


This is the biggest plothole of it all I guess: If you follow Eisen's advice in WC3, and don't pursue Hobbes, after it's reveleaed that he is the traitor.. how is it possible, that the Kilrathi still don't know about the temblor bomb at the end?

As far as I remember (could be wrong, it's been a while since I played this game), you need to rescue that scientist who invented the bomb AFTER Hobbes killed Cobra. After that misson you get a cutscene where you see the Kilrathi talking with their emperor; they don't have the slightest idea for what that rescue mission was good for.

This makes no sense, since Hobbes would tell them about the bomb.

Am I right or am I missing something?
 

Red Baron

Rear Admiral
No matter if you chose to pursue him, we don't get to see Hobbes at any point in the game later. Maybe he flew into an asteroid. Or he committed ritual suicide because you denied him his honorable death in battle. Or both.
 

boringnickname

Rear Admiral
No matter if you chose to pursue him, we don't get to see Hobbes at any point in the game later. Maybe he flew into an asteroid. Or he committed ritual suicide because you denied him his honorable death in battle. Or both.

He will appear above Kilrah in the last mission, if you don't pursue him.
 

Red Baron

Rear Admiral
hmm yes i think i remember something like that. Did he replace Thrakkath in that mission? Played that branch of the game only once, and that was about 15 years ago. Ok then i have no idea, maybe the Kilrathi didn't expect the Confederation to reach Kilrah that fast. Though they should've learned from the Tarawa.
 

boringnickname

Rear Admiral
hmm yes i think i remember something like that. Did he replace Thrakkath in that mission? Played that branch of the game only once, and that was about 15 years ago. Ok then i have no idea, maybe the Kilrathi didn't expect the Confederation to reach Kilrah that fast. Though they should've learned from the Tarawa.

He will appear together with Thrakkath.

As I said: The problem is, after you let Hobbes go, the Kilrathi still seem to have no clue about the bomb, and why that scientist was rescued (as evident in the cutscenes).

Plothole or is there an explaination?
 

AD

Finder of things, Doer of stuff
He will appear together with Thrakkath.

As I said: The problem is, after you let Hobbes go, the Kilrathi still seem to have no clue about the bomb, and why that scientist was rescued (as evident in the cutscenes).

Plothole or is there an explaination?

I think you may be over-thinking this. Just because we don't see Hobbes talking about it doesn't mean he doesn't. Plus, cobra - though she died - kept him from making off with the most important technical details about the bomb. It's also likely the Kilrathi felt that such a covert strike at the heart of their empire was improbably and likely to fail. They captured angel's team that was laying the groundwork for the temblor bomb project after all.
 

frostytheplebe

Seventh Part of the Seal
They captured angel's team that was laying the groundwork for the temblor bomb project after all.

Yeah I wondered about that. At first I thought the T-Bomb was Covert ops' and Paladin's project, while the Behemoth was Tolwyn's. Yet supposedly Angel is on a mission for Tolwyn. Did Tolwyn have a hand in the T-Bomb? If so, why didn't he stay on the Victory?
 

Dyret

Super Carrot!
It doesn't really matter whether he told them or not, they had like half the Kilrathi fleet in orbit to begin with.

It's not like they would build a giant hamster ball around Kilrah to keep him out or anything.
 

EmeraldaWebb

Swabbie
Banned
In the novel Thrakhath is not clueless (apparently Hobbes told him). Seems like a game problem. Let's remember that the Imperial Kilrathi Home fleet stayed in orbit of Kilrah during Blair's final attack on them. Maybe in the game Thrakhath was tipped off? I never liked that mission. The notion of bombing a whole planet seemed like that humanity couldn't outperform the Kilrathi using other means. Why wasn't Hobbes' tip to Thrakhath about the Behemoth intercepted by comspeople on the Victory?
 

boringnickname

Rear Admiral
It doesn't really matter whether he told them or not, they had like half the Kilrathi fleet in orbit to begin with.

It's not like they would build a giant hamster ball around Kilrah to keep him out or anything.


I was unsure, but after reading the guide:

https://www.wcnews.com/guides/wc3alcor.shtml

I was right - the rescue mission starts after Hobbes' defection became official.

Hobbes killed Cobra, because she caught him while he was transfering the data about the temblor bomb to the Kilrathi. Given that - he must have told them about the bomb if you don't follow him. Otherwise his endeavor makes not much sense. But the game acts as if the they don't know about it at all.


What makes this all the more plot holey: the victory is in the alcor system while hobbes defected - the prison planet where the doomsday scientist is beeing held is in the alcor system too. Why didn't Hobbes fly to the prison planet to tell them about the temblor bomb, so that the Kilrathi could fly the scientist out or kill him immediately?
 
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Mancubus

Rear Admiral
Why wasn't Hobbes' tip to Thrakhath about the Behemoth intercepted by comspeople on the Victory?

It was. You have Rollins babling about strange, coded transmissions going out of the ship. At first both him and Blair think it's Tolwyn's comms, but then, they find out thet they are still going on while Tolwyn was gone, and they both suspect traitor onboard. They just couldn't decrypt them in time to find that Hobbes was the traitor
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
As far as I remember (could be wrong, it's been a while since I played this game), you need to rescue that scientist who invented the bomb AFTER Hobbes killed Cobra. After that misson you get a cutscene where you see the Kilrathi talking with their emperor; they don't have the slightest idea for what that rescue mission was good for.

I don't think that's the point of the cutscene you're thinking of; it's supposed to indicate that Thrakhath knows he has failed and that he is keeping that information from the Emperor (which is how most of the winning track Thrakhath/Emperor conversations work, from Wing Commander 2 forward).

You can watch it here, it's the first one: https://www.wcnews.com/holovids/wing3_freya.shtml -- the directions in the script extract are also interesting. The Emperor has heard about the attack on Alcor, suspects something is wrong and Thrakhath doesn't want him to know the truth--and Melek speaking up is indicating that he's losing his grasp on power.

Ultimately, though, they obviously do know what's happening -- because Thrakhath (and Hobbes, if he's alive) are there to intercept you as you try to enter orbit. Presumably they weren't just hanging around Kilrathi in their fighters for the heck of it...

No matter if you chose to pursue him, we don't get to see Hobbes at any point in the game later. Maybe he flew into an asteroid. Or he committed ritual suicide because you denied him his honorable death in battle. Or both.

If you don't pursue Hobbes, he shows up at the end of the game as Thrakhath's wingcat (still flying his Thunderbolt).

Yeah I wondered about that. At first I thought the T-Bomb was Covert ops' and Paladin's project, while the Behemoth was Tolwyn's. Yet supposedly Angel is on a mission for Tolwyn. Did Tolwyn have a hand in the T-Bomb? If so, why didn't he stay on the Victory?

You are correct, they were competing projects. The missing link between the two, though, is that both required the target world to be tectonically unstable… which is why Tolwyn sent Angel to Kilrah (providing data which also benefited the Temblor Bomb, whose use was approved after Behemoth failed).

What makes this all the more plot holey: the victory is in the alcor system while hobbes defected - the prison planet where the doomsday scientist is beeing held is in the alcor system too. Why didn't Hobbes fly to the prison planet to tell them about the temblor bomb, so that the Kilrathi could fly the scientist out or kill him immediately?

I think there's a difference between a plot whole and coming up with some alternate scenario that also makes sense. There are some problems with this one, though. For one, the Victory would know if Hobbes were headed for Alcor instead of the jump point… and another is that there's no easy way for him to get there in the first place. A prison garrison knows Hobbes as a the greatest traitor in Kilrathi history (flying a human fighter from the carrier that's in the process of attacking them) -- not as a double agent with valuable information. If there were some easy mechanism for every Kilrathi in the galaxy to confirm his secret loyalty, he wouldn't have been a successful age… he has to report back to the one kil who knows his real mission.
 
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Mancubus

Rear Admiral
You are correct, they were competing projects. The missing link between the two, though, is that both required the target world to be tectonically unstable… which is why Tolwyn sent Angel to Kilrah (providing data which also benefited the Temblor Bomb, whose use was approved after Behemoth failed).

I thought that Behemoth needing A world to be tectonically unstable is the info from the novel, directly contradicted by Tolwyn's ingame qutes, and indirectly by the fact that Confed created at least one Behemoth during Nephilim conflict (it would be pointless to recreate weapon originally intende to destroy one specific planet - Kilrath. after all we don't hear of any T-Bomb strikes during Nephilim war)
 

boringnickname

Rear Admiral
I don't think that's the point of the cutscene you're thinking of; it's supposed to indicate that Thrakhath knows he has failed and that he is keeping that information from the Emperor (which is how most of the winning track Thrakhath/Emperor conversations work, from Wing Commander 2 forward).

You can watch it here, it's the first one: https://www.wcnews.com/holovids/wing3_freya.shtml -- the directions in the script extract are also interesting. The Emperor has heard about the attack on Alcor, suspects something is wrong and Thrakhath doesn't want him to know the truth--and Melek speaking up is indicating that he's losing his grasp on power.

Ultimately, though, they obviously do know what's happening -- because Thrakhath (and Hobbes, if he's alive) are there to intercept you as you try to enter orbit. Presumably they weren't just hanging around Kilrathi in their fighters for the heck of it...

This cutscene appears exactly the same regardless whether Hobbes successfully escapes or not. And, yes indeed, Thrakkath waits for you above Kilrah, regardless whether you shot down Hobbes or not...

Does that mean that Thrakkath does know about the temblor bomb, even if Blair pursues Hobbes in Alcor?

How is that possible? Cobra says, that she stopped Hobbes before he could send the message.
 
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Mancubus

Rear Admiral
I thought that Behemoth needing A world to be tectonically unstable is the info from the novel, directly contradicted by Tolwyn's ingame qutes, and indirectly by the fact that Confed created at least one Behemoth during Nephilim conflict (it would be pointless to recreate weapon originally intende to destroy one specific planet - Kilrath. after all we don't hear of any T-Bomb strikes during Nephilim war)


To support what I said
Tolwyn: (...)Behemoth is a series of linked, superconducting energy amplification conduits, focusing an output of five hundred million gigawatts into one lancing point. Any target at the end of that point is destroyed.
Eisen: Even a planet…
Tolwyn: Yes, Captain. Even a planet
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Tolwyn adds to that exact scene in the novel that "even the scientists can't say for sure whether the energy beam itself would destroy an entire planet, but they do agree that the resultant seismic stresses should be enough to tear it apart, particularly a world like Kilrah which is already unstable."

His nephew makes the same point when assigning the Victory it's recon mission--he explains that they're worried about testing on a planet that is so stable that it will just take the blast without causing any earthquakes.

Which is to say that it's a giant laser that's good for blowing up big things… but there's some question as to its ability to destroy *any* planet.

This cutscene appears exactly the same regardless whether Hobbes successfully escapes or not. And, yes indeed, Thrakkath waits for you above Kilrah, regardless whether you shot down Hobbes or not...

Does that mean that Thrakkath does know about the temblor bomb, even if Blair pursues Hobbes in Alcor?

How is that possible? Cobra says, that she stopped Hobbes before he could send the message.

Presumably Hobbes is not the sum total of Kilrah's intelligence network… but as you note, you get that scene either way -- and without Hobbes transmitting the message it can be read as Melek figuring out what is happening.
 

boringnickname

Rear Admiral
So there was aother high positioned spy who told them about the temblor bomb? Sounds far fetched. The prince's assistant seems to be genuinely clueless what exactly the scientist's specialities were:


---

MELEK
The apes took but one prisoner. His skills are technical - - scientific in nature.

EMPEROR
And these skills are applied to . . . ?

MELEK
That, we did not fully explore. His range of knowledge was vast - -
---

How was he able to figure it out that the humans were developing a planet buster bomb? He didn't even know what exactly the scientist was working on before his capture.


Now, I must admit, there is a way:

All the planet destroying tests (both, the behemoth and the temblor tests) were practiced in regions where the Kilrathi did operate. The behemoth was even tested on a Kilrathi planet! I always thought that this was pretty ridiculous strategy wise. Of course they would notice that planets in their sectors disappear one by one....

Another oddity: Why does Eisen orders you not to pursue Hobbes? If some one wants to defect with SUCH valuable information, you just have to stop him. This never made sense to me. Does any one disagree with me on that?
 

AD

Finder of things, Doer of stuff
How was he able to figure it out that the humans were developing a planet buster bomb? He didn't even know what exactly the scientist was working on before his capture.

Now, I must admit, there is a way:

All the planet destroying tests (both, the behemoth and the temblor tests) were practiced in regions where the Kilrathi did operate. The behemoth was even tested on a Kilrathi planet! I always thought that this was pretty ridiculous strategy wise. Of course they would notice that planets in their sectors disappear one by one....

Another oddity: Why does Eisen orders you not to pursue Hobbes? If some one wants to defect with SUCH valuable information, you just have to stop him. This never made sense to me. Does any one disagree with me on that?

First, why would they need to know Sevrin's specialty? I think it's pretty fair to suggest that at the very least Thrakhath and Melek *expect* a last ditch desperate strike at kilrah, or at least the Emperor. Hobbes had been in contact with Thrakhath even if he didn't get to make off with the specifics about the temblor bomb. And he obviously knew the intent of the Behemoth.

Hobbes doesn't have the intel though. Cobra kept him from leaving with it, even if you don't pursue Hobbes. Chasing after hobbes on some personal vendetta would have been foolish and reckless.
 

Mancubus

Rear Admiral
Hobbes doesn't have the intel though. Cobra kept him from leaving with it, even if you don't pursue Hobbes. Chasing after hobbes on some personal vendetta would have been foolish and reckless.

Yep, but I think the point is That he has seen it. He has it all In his head, so If he survives, he can tell Thrakath lot's of things from memory
 

AD

Finder of things, Doer of stuff
Yep, but I think the point is That he has seen it. He has it all In his head, so If he survives, he can tell Thrakath lot's of things from memory

Even so, I think Thrakhath was pretty confident in their plan to push on earh. That's what the massive fleet around Kilrah was for. They might have been overconfident and or underestimated when the Humans would be able to get to Kilrah with the device. Even so, Thrakhath specifically stated during one of the fleet amassing scenes that he hopes to get to fight blair one last time.
 
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