Hellcat V, naming scheme question.

Nob Akimoto

Rear Admiral
Is the "Hellcat V" called the "V" as counted from the F6F or from generations of previous Confed Starfighters?(I'd always assumed it was the former. Much like the Thunderbolt VII, which could be counted from the P-47 origin, to the A-10 Thunderbolt II)

If that were the case, why doesn't the Bearcat have a similar "number" in the name indicating lineage(after the F8F)

And it does seem though that these two were meant to be compared to their WW2 counterparts.

Hellcat V- Decent multi-role, superior to their counterpart(Dralthi which is probably supposed to be the A6M of the Kilrathi fighter forces.) Though interesting that the Hellcat has the "F" designator as the Sabre did.(Coincidence I'd assume at least till...)

Bearcat- Late war/post war development made simply to be small, compact and light with good firepower rate of climb and without sacrificing durability. F-series designation matches the F-104 Starfighter.(Kind of ironic that these same fighters the F-104A was slated to be canned because it lacked endurance, and offense capability...)

In comparasion some other fighters could be:
F4U- Arrow. Faster much superior(in terms of agility and apparently survivability) compared to the Hellcat, but less popular to various reasons.

P-47-As it's name(Thunderbolt) suggests, the T-bolt VII. Though I highly doubt the T-bolt was designed as an interceptor to begin with, it's heavy weight , toughness, 6 heavy guns, and relative longevity, in addition to the fact that while designed as a fighter it was also just as if not more effective in strike ops, make it very similar to the Confed fighter with the same name.

B-17- Broadsword. Kind of obvious from it's naming(A-17) that it's meant to follow in the footsteps of the mighty flying fortress(nevermind that B-17's can't do naval strikes.)

Sadly for the RL fighters the similarities for example f-designators end mostly there.

There are some exceptions like the F/A-105 Tigershark which is somewhat reminiscent of the F-105 Thunderchief(Or affectionally known as the "Thud.") but otherwise, I see very few similarities.
 
Since, as you point out, the Bearcat does not have a II after it, we should probably assume that the numbers relate to Confed fighters only, and do not go as far back as US WWII fighters. Of course, one could point out that the WWII Corsair fighter did not have a II even though it was in fact the second Corsair figher being used by the USN (or was it third?). So, in theory, the lack of a number for the Bearcat doesn't invalidate the WWII heritage idea.
Still, given that virtually all WC fighters recycle names from current (or outdated) planes, and most do not have a number, it's best to assume that the numbers do not go that far back.

As for the Arrow, however, I personally would assume that the Arrow, when it first appeared in Armada, was actually a homage to the Avro Arrow of Canada, which was at the time of its design to be the fastest fighter in the world - but sadly got scrapped before it could even show what it could do. Wow, that was all one sentence :).

Oh, and I'm surprised that you overlooked the Devastator :). Though, I suppose, the WCP Devastator is much more effective than its WWII counterpart.
 
What about the Border Worlds's ships? The US navy also had "Avengers" and "Vindicators", and IIRC they were both strike craft... though the Vindicators were already outdated as of 1941.

--Eder
 
I don't know about the numbers on the avenger and vindicator, but if those numbers don't match, you can always argue that they weren't confed fighters, so they naturally wouldn't have the right numbers.
 
Well I never considered the TBD Devestator to have any similarity to it's WC counterpart(simply because we don't see the Dev's in WCP get torn to shreds against the Nephs.)

Though I admit I was kind of hasty in dropping the Avenger and Vindicator(they completely slipped my mind.)

The Avenger matches the TBF rather well, being a superior torpedo boat, and the Vindicator matches the SB2U well in the fact that it was a crappy plane. ;)

As for the Corsair and lack of a "II" on the F4U, is simply because IIRC the F4U Was the first "Corsair" naval fighter.

The Later A-7 was given a II after the Corsair as the Corsair II.
 
Originally posted by Nob Akimoto
Well I never considered the TBD Devestator to have any similarity to it's WC counterpart(simply because we don't see the Dev's in WCP get torn to shreds against the Nephs.)
You of course refer to the Battle of Midway. However, you overlook that with the exception of that one battle, the Dev was actually a very capable and successful aircraft, albeit obsolete by WWII. It was a "first" in many ways both for the US Navy and naval aviation in general, and even with horribly-ineffecient torpedoes performed well until Midway (including sinking the carrier SHOHO at Coral Sea.

Chris Douglas, the Art Director for WCIII and WCIV, stated clearly in an article (PC Gamer, IIRC) back when WCIII came out, that nearly all the Confed craft were based in some way or ways on "modern" military aircraft. The intention was to demonstrate a logical progression through the centuries.

For example, the Arrow was modeled in shape (triangular, and note the chin scoop) and mission (interceptor and fighter) after the F-8 Crusader. The Longbow resembles the B-29 Superfortress in appearance and role. And the Excalibur is the WCIII equivalent of the now-defunct YF-23 Black Widow (the loser in the Air Force ATF competition, despite being the overall better fighter).
 
Originally posted by Penguin
OriginalPhoenix: Would you care to elaborate on why you think the YF-23 is better than the YF-22/F-22?

Why, it's just simple math! 23 is *one* better than 22! <G>
 
Originally posted by Penguin
OriginalPhoenix: Would you care to elaborate on why you think the YF-23 is better than the YF-22/F-22?
Sure, I'd be happy to.

Let's first look at the characteristics that are traditionally regarded as important for a fighter. The YF-23 was faster, had a better rate of climb, a higher service ceiling, and a larger weapons loadout. The YF-22 was/is more agile, it's only advantage.

Now, consider the untraditional, specifically the stealth characterisitics. Here again, the YF-23 was more stealthy that its counterpart. Its engine arrangement also cooled exhaust better, lessening the possibility of a random heat-seeker lock.

So why then did the Air Force select the YF-22? Well, the official line is that their desires changed. When the ATF competition started, they were looking for a competent all-around fighter, one that could manage all fighter-related roles (CAP, escort, interceptor, etc.), and do them all better than any other fighter in existence for years to come. However, ultimately, the USAF decided that what they really wanted was a dogfighter, and here the agility of the YF-22 reigned supreme. However, given that the entire overriding aspect of the ATF program was to develop a clear first-see/first-kill aircraft, it seems assinine to me that the single most UNIMPORTANT characteristic would drive the decision. I mean, if your objective is to see the enemy and destroy him before he can even detect you, much less engage you, how does agility override stealth, speed, and firepower?

But that's just my viewpoint. :)
 
Thanks You!

Someone who's got their facts straight! I was punching myself in the head when the Air Force picked the Raptor! The YF-23 was so far superior in every way to the F-22. In fact, if you were to ask me, the YF-23 was/is the epitome of multi-role fighter.

Well, I'll bet our mighty Air Force is regretting their decision! Seeing how the current state of warfare puts us against enemies who have no capable aircraft to dogfight with! Even before the War on Terrorism, I said "We have this almighty dogfighter... with no one to dogfight with."

Most of our "enemies," (most of whom have jumped on our bandwagon) haven't the means to provide adequate air power for a sustained air war.

World War II is over, folks!

Byt the way, Phoenix- not only do I like your opinion on this matter but your rank/symbol rulez!!

:cool:
 
OK I'm going to have a go at playing devil's advocate.
Perhaps the reason the USAF chose the F-22, based on its agility, was based on the incorporation of thrust vectoring into the newest Russian fighters. Thusly the Russians and their customers (China and India particularly) could outdogfight their American counterpart. The threat posed by latest generation Russian fighters (Su-30/35/37, S-37, MiG-29SMT, MiG-1.44, et al) is compounded by avionics and missiles that compare favorably with their American counterparts.

The first look, first shot, first kill capability, is theory. Missiles, no matter how sophisticated, can still be foiled by ECM and other factors. So it could boil down to a dogfight. In Vietnam the Americans thought missiles made guns obsolescent. This turned out to be a miscalculation, rules of engagement notwithstanding. It led to the founding of Top Gun, which emphasizes Air Combat Manouvers - a programme which continues to this day.

In sum the F-22 may be the less impressive of the 2 ATF competitors, but its agility, coupled with the conception that it is stealthy and fast enough, may make it the best choice.

[Debate voice off] I do agree with you guys though. Supercruise and stealth ought to allow either fighter to evade dogfights should the situation warrant it. And it doesn't seem like the US needs the ATF to any significant extent.
 
In Response

Like I had said our "major competitors," do not have the means to sustain an air war. Russia doesn't have the money to provide that much air power or to accomodate global coverage in order to gain ground through the air.

Now, China may be a threat because they do have sufficient funds, however, their training programs are not up to par with United States' SUPT (or any of the other NATO joint training programs).

If vectored thrust is truly such a grave issue, then it is extremely feasible to mod existing F-15 models and F-16 models with new multi-axial engines.

Also, like I said, Russia and China have jumped onto our team and have become our "mutual partners." Unless this alliance proves shaky, then the F-22 is still outclassed by a jet that never left the test phases...!
 
True Dat

Smells, don't it?

Say, why did I get promoted so fast? I was 2Lt for only 2 days! No way possible I could've posted that much within a two-day span....

:confused:
 
Originally posted by Nob Akimoto
The Avenger matches the TBF rather well, being a superior torpedo boat, and the Vindicator matches the SB2U well in the fact that it was a crappy plane. ;)

Just stay right where you are, Nob. The Vindicator Cult has decided that we really want to...talk....to you. :)

Best, Raptor
 
But...but...the Devastator was really crappy...at least compared to the Avenger...which got shot down making torpedo runs...but which allowed the Dauntless to dive bomb the carriers!
 
Re: True Dat

Originally posted by Col.Dom
Smells, don't it?

Say, why did I get promoted so fast? I was 2Lt for only 2 days! No way possible I could've posted that much within a two-day span....

:confused:

Yes you have posted 25 posts, and know you are a First Lieutenant. Didn't you know that's all it takes at your level. :)




The worse fighter has been, is, and always will be the Epee. Period.
 
Originally posted by Romale
f22 was chosen for for price period
'Fraid not. Cost was not really an issue, as both aircraft were in the same price range. Where one spent money on certain features, theother saved, and visa versa.

For example, the YF-22 uses thrust vectored engine exhausts, but has no significant menas to dispel the heat generated by the engines from that exhaust. The YF-23, by contrast, saved money by not using thrust-vectoring, but utilizes ceramic exhaust separators and troughs to lessen the heat signature.

All-in-all, cost was nary an issue.
 
I got this from http://www.area51zone.com/aircraft/f22.shtml

How the YF-22 beat the YF-23

The YF-23 from Northrop vs. the YF-22 from Lockheed Martin. The YF-23 should have won, and it is a better plane, in stealth and in speed. The only thing it was worse at was low-speed handling. That wasn't why it lost, though. It lost because, while Northrop's B-2 bomber was late and suffering cost overruns, Lockheed had developed the F-117 Stealth Fighter on time and under budget, which made the jugdes favor Lockheed. Northrop felt the loss greatly, because it didn't have enough experience with fighters.
 
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