Gwynedd a backwater system...

Sylvester

Sylvester

Vice Admiral
According to Wing Commander II, Gwynedd is relatively backwater. But checking the map, it is two, a mere two jump points from K'Tithrak Mang. Now I wouldn't consider that backwater.
 
All jump lines aren't created equal. The map shows absolute links, but there are only certain routes that real fleets can take when engaging in offensive maneuvers.
 
It's a backwater system because there's nothing there -- a nominally abandoned science station does not a strategic center make.
 
All jump lines aren't created equal. The map shows absolute links, but thare are only certain routes that real fleets can take when engaging in offensive maneuvers.
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But if you think about it, a fleet can jump anywhere in the Sector. So, from a strictly military sense, there wouldn't be any strategic systems (at least in the manner of being on important jump routes, of course there would be systems that are strategic because of resources, manpower, and the like)
 
I'm not really sure what you're saying. Of course being on strategic jump routes makes a system important. It's not exactly a good move, strategically, to send your fleet off on dozens of jumps to sneak around, because then you don't have the units while you're waiting weeks for them to manuever.

Any system on, say, the shortest route from Kilrahi space to Earth is automatically strategically important, because stopping the Kilrathi from taking a least time course to Earth means that you have more time to organize defense. Just because you can get to places different ways doesn't mean that some routes aren't better than others.

If I'm understanding you right, you're basically making an argument comparable to saying that holding or destroying a key bridge isn't strategically useful, because attackers can just take the longer trip to a crossing down or upstream and eventually get where they're going anywhere.
 
I believe he's claiming that the unusual effect of the Enigma Sector black hole makes holding individual systems in Enigma reletively unimportant, strategically.
 
If my WC knowledge serves me, you can't jump from any point in the system, you have to jump from a specific point, and there may be many points in the system. Take the Arial system in WC3 - excellent example. There are several points in the system, and Eisen takes the Victory to another jump point after the Kilrathi mask their primary point. Gwynedd may have several jump points spread out throughout the system, so spread out that it may take weeks to travel between them maximum sublight speed (even slower with scoops open). If one or two alternate routes around Gwynedd take far shorter to reach a location than through Gwynedd, it would make the system less strategically important.
 
I think there was a standard policy to put mines at jump points which the Kilrathi were expected to use.
 
There is also the matter that jump points vary in how wide they can open. In WC4, the Vesuvius can not take the shortest route to Sol because it is too large to pass through the jump points. Thus, it stands to reason that a significant portion of all jump points are not capable of passing vessels of fleet carrier or larger size. If the jump points between Gwnedd and K'Tithrak Mang are unable to be used by a ship like the Concordia, then it is not a viable invasion route.
 
But remember, in the 'losing' win ending of Wing Commander II, when you fail at Enigma, the fleet is sent to Gwynedd to hold off the Kilrathi attack. This clearly shows that a battle group is more than capable of using Gwynedd to travel.
 
Sylvester said:
But remember, in the 'losing' win ending of Wing Commander II, when you fail at Enigma, the fleet is sent to Gwynedd to hold off the Kilrathi attack. This clearly shows that a battle group is more than capable of using Gwynedd to travel.
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The losing path is your retreating actions. Obviously the large Concordia can use the jump to Gwenydd. The Concordia retreats there because it has to, and its pursuers follow. Still a backwater.
 
Ijuin said:
There is also the matter that jump points vary in how wide they can open. In WC4, the Vesuvius can not take the shortest route to Sol because it is too large to pass through the jump points. Thus, it stands to reason that a significant portion of all jump points are not capable of passing vessels of fleet carrier or larger size. If the jump points between Gwnedd and K'Tithrak Mang are unable to be used by a ship like the Concordia, then it is not a viable invasion route.
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As far as I know this only applies to the Vesuvius and possibly the Hakaga classes. As described in Fleet Action, the Kilrathi finally solved issues relating to the size of a ship and its jump drive, which was why they were even able to build the Hakaga's. Prior to this breakthrough, both sides were limited to a certain size for any capitol ship they wanted to be jump capable, due to limitattions in the drive itself, not the jump point. Confed most likely incorporated the new Kilrathi jump drive technology into the Vesuvius carriers. Unfortunately this brought new problems to the surface, the size of the jump point itself. The Vesuvius class is decidedly bigger than the Hakaga class, so perhaps the Hakaga class did not have this problem. Basically my point is that before the Hakaga class was built, neither side ever had a problem with ships being too big for a jump point because they simply didnt have the technology for a jump drive capable enough for a ship of that size to jump. So ships like the Concordia class or Snakier class can go through ANY jump point.
 
... what of the behemoth? Albeit hollow, it has a great deal of girth, if only due to the accelerator rings (Wild guess as to why the thing was so bloody long)... That thing is the largest ship I remember in any WC game. Wouldn't it have had troubles jumping?
Paddybhoy said:
I hope nobody mentions the 'D' word in this thread :D
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Descent.
 
Manic said:
... what of the behemoth? Albeit hollow, it has a great deal of girth, if only due to the accelerator rings (Wild guess as to why the thing was so bloody long)... That thing is the largest ship I remember in any WC game. Wouldn't it have had troubles jumping?
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You got me on that one. I have know idea how the Behemoth or H'varkann can get through jump points but the Vesuvius cant. Perhaps both ships had the same problem as the Vesuvius only they never needed to operate near any small jump points. Maybe the main route to Sol has unusually small jump points. Its all speculation on my part though.
 
Well, can anyone document the Behemoth coming through jump points that the Vesuvius could not? WC3 only mentions that Behemoth jumped to Torgo (from where, I wasn't able to find it), then to Loki, where it was destroyed. Neither of those systems were visited in WC4. The Behemoth could have traveled to Torgo a number of different ways from Sol, presumably through jump points it is able to travel between.
 
The Behemoth is destoryed during the Loki 3 mission, on it's way to Kilrah. They never actually get to the Kilrah system. This is also the same mission that you see Angel gored by Thrakhath.
 
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