Guns? What are your feelings?

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anyone can go GET a gun, it is not that hard, just enter a "bad" pub and ask around, in some places you would only need 15 minutes to obtain a sidearm for
the right price.

and if everyone owns a gun, accept a mental patient, it would be the easiest thing
in the world for a mental patient to surprise and overpower a gun owner, and posess one himself.

I myself have a collection of swords, when i buy a new one, it has to be conceiled
in a box and wrapping, knives, and even baseball bats are also forbidden. I think
this is the correct way to do it, these are not medieval times, and society looks out
for eachother, at least, they are supposed to.

As for the right to defend yourself, sure some moron could obtain a gun and enter your house and threaten you, let him leave, insurance will cover the losses for as
far as possible, and you live another day. qualified people will capture him.
if everyone had a gun, he could just take one and assemble an arsenal in minutes.

If everyone had guns, i'd have a sawn of shotgun and an uzi whenever i walked the streets, just to defend myself.

lives are easy to take, but harder to give.
 
Percy said:
Suppose that someone is able to wave a magic wand and suddenly, all guns disappeared but your own (incl criminals). Would you still keep your gun or would you get rid of it?
If a robber approached your home, would a baseball bat not serve the same purpose now that he doesn't have a gun?
What I'm trying to get at, is the want to own a gun due to the fact that you might be robbed by someone using one too?

Personally, I would keep my guns, magic wand or not. As well as being armed for my protection and that of my family, I also enjoy hunting and recreational target shooting.

As far as controlling crime by controlling guns, the magic wand would be the only way to go because banning guns would only affect honest people who care about following the law in the first place. Criminals can and would find a way around it and have guns anyway.

Given the hypothetical situation where guns simply do not exist, a baseball bat would still not serve the same purpose for self protection simply because people's physical strength is not the same. Even with the bat, an 80 year old grandmother could not hope to stop a 300 pound linebacker. As the saying goes, "God created men - but Sam Colt made them equal."


t.c.cgi said:
A point missed is the blind assumption that guns are only used in the taking of life situations. Yes, that's what they're meant for, or at least so I'm told. Cars are also meant for driving to work, but people race them, and not just on TV. If my house is ever broken into sure my weapon will be brought into the equation... I won't go hunting for the guy like Elmer Fudd but if he picks door number 3 he's gonna get a surprise.

No, the reason I own a weapon is for the reacreational aspect. From my POV, banning a gun would be the same as banning football. In countries where gun ownership is not allowed I think this is overlooked too much. Just because something was designed with breaking a commandment in mind doesn't mean you absolutely have to use it for that. Going shooting is the only outdoor recreational activity I enjoy.

Perhaps what should be looked at is stress levels, responsibility, or other improved virtues of those who shoot either for competition, hunting, or just plain target practice.

Even in self defense situations it shouldn't be assumed that if there is a gun involved, a life will somehow be taken. In many, many cases the presence of a gun alone has been enough to stop a crime without a shot being fired.


Confed said:
I think that the law should treat this the same as with a car.
To be allowed to handle a gun, you should have to take a written exam first, followed by a practical exam.
Written : every owner must know the basis safety rules
practical : training & exam with paint-ball gun, so that people learn how to shoot someone without killing them. (if you know how to stop a criminal without killing him, you will not be so hesitant to fire at him when necessary & killing someone can leave a lot of people traumatised for life, even if they were defending themselves)

If I lived in the U.S., I would want to own a gun (especially in the big cities), but in Belgium violent crimes are not that common (yet?).

Only in the U.S., the second amendment to our Constitution guarantees the right to keep and bear arms. Included in the same bill of rights that aknowledges freedom of speech, religion, and the press.

Shooting someone with the inention of wounding them or delivering a non-lethal blow can be the best and most ethical option in certain situations, however it is not a practice that is taught during professional and police training. It is taught that in a situation serious enough to warrant shooting, one should aim for the center mass of the body and continue shooting until the threat is neutralized. The reason being that when you are pumped full of adrenaline while shooting at a moving target, it is very easy to miss no matter how good you are at hitting stationary pieces of paper at the range and hits are much more likely if you are going for the largest part of the attacker. But like I said, each situation has to be judged individually.


Delance said:
Such is the case that rich people sponsoring gun control policy run around with armed security. The moment gun-control applies to everyone, incuding people with a lot of money defending gun-control, I might take it seriously as a concept.

Thank You! Tell that to Rosie O'Donnell.
 
Delance said:
But if the country is not half-decent, and if the police and justice don't work, which is the case of Brazil, it's unfair to ask to everyone to rely on them for their safety.

There was a US Supreme Court ruling, years ago (I forget the case specifics, though) that said, basically, that the police are under no legal obligation to stop a crime from being committed when it's happening, they only have to capture the perpetrator(s) after the fact.

Also, in more than a few areas of either really high or really low population density (big cities and "out in the country", respectively), even if the police are on the ball, it can take them up to half an hour or more to actually get to you if you call in a robbery, due to traffic or distance. By the time the police get there, it could be all over except for the body bag.

As for "shoot to wound", not only isn't that taught professionally, it's also a generally stupid idea. Say you do shoot J. Random Mugger for a wounding shot, for the sake of argument in the shoulder involved in holding a weapon on the potential victim. You've not stopped the perp, and now he's pissed from being shot. If you (generic "you") aren't willing to accept the possibility that you may have to take a life when you draw a weapon, don't draw the weapon. Anything less than "get the job done" is a potential invitation to make a bad situation even worse.

(And for gh0d's sake, don't even think about pulling some Follywood bullshit and attempt to shoot the weapon out of the perp's hand. That's a load of crap, to put it mildly.)
 
t.c.cgi said:
No, the reason I own a weapon is for the reacreational aspect. From my POV, banning a gun would be the same as banning football. In countries where gun ownership is not allowed I think this is overlooked too much. Just because something was designed with breaking a commandment in mind doesn't mean you absolutely have to use it for that. Going shooting is the only outdoor recreational activity I enjoy.

Why do you assume that this cannot work?
In my country you are allowed to
* Have a loaded gun with you if you are workin in an especionally dangerous job (police, security, driving a money transporter, ...)
* Have an unloaded gun at home (munition must be put at a different place as the gun) which must be locked away. This WILL be checked from time to time by the police (without prior notice). You may use such a gun for hunting or for sports purposes, but you may not carry it in any other circumstances. Which means you have to directly drive from home to the recreation and back, no intermediate stops. Also the weapon may only be armed at the destination.

In both cases you have to do a psychological test and you have to do a practical test (which is admittingly rediculous).
 
BigsWickDagger said:
Professional criminal or non-professional? Hmmm..... I think that is kind of like saying someone is a professional mechanic or a professional teacher. Some are simply better than others to be sure, but what makes one a professional?

I know - it wasn't the best wording on my part. But I think you got what I wanted to say with it.

BigsWickDagger said:
In early 1998 I was picked to serve as a juror in a murder trial in Orlando. The defendant was 18 at the time he committed his crime. He and two other guys stole three 9mm pistols and went out for a joy ride on Thanksgiving evening 1996 (an American holiday in November).

One question: WHERE did they steal the guns?

In any case the story is kinda tragic and I'll also admit that sure everyone can get illegal guns as well. I'd bet I could get a working Kalashnikov (which is forbidden to own privately EVEN if non functional) in a week if I wanted to. An I am not at all into shady circles. However it is still a rather big hurdle and even if it isn't a 100% thing 50% less 'causual murders' is still damn good, isn't it?

Of course all of my gun references are to be seen in contect of a fairly safe country with a working police.
As I already said, it is pretty much unthinkable that someone would break into my house when I am at home here. Thats a once in a year event in the whole country maybe - something like that. On the streets a robber with a gun is more common. But there your gun would have substantially less use as well.
 
cff said:
Why do you assume that this cannot work?
In my country you are allowed to
* Have a loaded gun with you if you are workin in an especionally dangerous job (police, security, driving a money transporter, ...)
* Have an unloaded gun at home (munition must be put at a different place as the gun) which must be locked away. This WILL be checked from time to time by the police (without prior notice). You may use such a gun for hunting or for sports purposes, but you may not carry it in any other circumstances. Which means you have to directly drive from home to the recreation and back, no intermediate stops. Also the weapon may only be armed at the destination.

Thank god we have the second amendment here as well as the fourth to keep the government out of our houses. I would not want to live like that.

cff said:
However it is still a rather big hurdle and even if it isn't a 100% thing 50% less 'causual murders' is still damn good, isn't it?

And what makes you think there would be 50% fewer murders? Washington DC and my home state of California have the most strict gun control laws in the nation as well as the highest violent crime rates while the states that let citizens carry without undue hassle have some of the lowest. This is not coincidence.

cff said:
On the streets a robber with a gun is more common. But there your gun would have substantially less use as well.

Exactly wrong. I couldn't think of a situation where a firearm and the skill to use it efficiently would be more handy.
 
cff said:
Why do you assume that this cannot work?

Eh? What are you talking about? I was simply stating my own motives for owning a weapon. When I bought my rifle my concern was not self defense. I do not live in a crime-ridden part of town, nor have I been a victim of a crime. When I went shopping for an M1 Garand I was shopping for something I'd get enjoyment out of. Of course one could argue that I have not been a victim of a crime since then because we are very visible when we put our guns in our car for a day of shooting.

I was of legal age to buy (18 years), I had no criminal background. I walked out that hour with my rifle. I have shot a grand total of zero living beings with it, have invested a decent amount of money in it's maintenance. Yes, maintenence, I shoot no less than 80 rounds per outing.

I would try to find statistics of shots fired by civilian weapons versus gunshot wounds, but it seems Google has failed me. It's a brazen assumption to think that America is the wild-f***ing-west where everyones got a six shooter and we're having showdowns everyday at noon. The fact is guns are as much a hobbiest item as vintage cars. Yeah they have the stigma of being used in crimes and wars, so what. Some people like cannibus, I like firearms. My arguement is that people only look at the "bad" side. That crap led to the Prohibition of the 30's. Lot of good that did, huh!
 
Lots of stimulating conversation so far, just like to weigh in again. First, Eder, wasn't trying to mock or discourage your points I just thought Quarto's post was quite witty and amusing yet contained a valid argument. I hope you weren't overly offended. (I think in an argument over a controversial manner it's easier to get upset sometimes).

Death, your post about the court ruling that police officer's aren't legally obligated to stop a crime occurring but to arrest the perpetrators probably follows the same course as the supreme court ruling that the duty of the police is not to protect individuals but to protect society as a whole. Which means you can't sue the police for failing to prevent a crime that occured to you. So that my feeling is that even in America where I feel our police departments on the whole are pretty good...they're not going to stop every crime and that knowledge alone makes me want to have something to even the playing field. Guns...thus far have been that equalizer. There are other options (Mace, stun guns, tasers etc.) but for the most part these alternatives require allowing the assailant to be in extremely close proximity to you...it's possible you may not get them in time or that you misuse the item and get yourself as well as them. Besides, guns have an additional factor in that as several have mentioned they provide an enjoyable time out on a target range or perhaps for hunting.

As for the right to defend yourself, sure some moron could obtain a gun and enter your house and threaten you, let him leave, insurance will cover the losses for as far as possible, and you live another day...

So...how much does the insurance companies pay for letting him rape your wife? I'm not sure I'd want to live with myself after something like that...knowing I didn't do anything to stop him...or at the least couldn't stop him.

Ultimately it boils down to the amount of security you want to have. A gun is the ultimate equalizer. As somone else mentioned...it makes a 75 year old grandmother able to defend herself against the 250lb linebacker. Contrary to popular belief you're not likely to be outgunned (the belief that the other guy is packing a bigger better gun than you). All guns are deadly and unless the other person is wearing body armor you're going to be roughly even. Criminals (all criminals...regardless of whether they are "professional" or not) only attempt their crimes where they believe they have an advantage. You do not see a 120lb 5'5" fellow try to rob a 330lb 7' tall goliath without some sort of backing (I doubt he'd try it with just a baseball bat for sure...maybe with a knife but I bet he'd be pretty nervouse just the same). Criminals always have and always will pick on the weak...even the desperate guys that are just doing it so they can eat some bread that night will pick their target carefully. If you are the victim of being robbed or some other type of crime it's because the assailant thinks he has the advantage (this can be that he's much bigger than you or has a knife or has a bat or even a gun). As soon as you show him that he no longer has his advantage...or even better yet...that he's at a disadvantage. He's more likely to bolt that anything...especially if you give him that option. Just say, "If you head off in that direction and don't look back I'll forget this ever happened." 9 times out of 10 you won't even finish the statement before he's on his way.
 
So...how much does the insurance companies pay for letting him rape your wife? I'm not sure I'd want to live with myself after something like that...knowing I didn't do anything to stop him...or at the least couldn't stop him.

True, you would have probably shot him, and thus killing him(stress or anger might take over and you would lack the common sence to shoot him in his legs)
If you use more force then needed against a burgler, you are actually facing charges.

there has been more than one occasion here in holland where a burgler got
overpowered and sued for broken hands/legs/feet as a result of the struggle,
and cases of improsenment for shooting/stabbing a burgler.

burglers come for your stuff, not too kill you. the case of an intended rape is
a good example though, no awnser for that.

let's take an inbetween solution, you are allowed to have a gun in the privacy
of your own home, given you have taken an exam in handling it and are proven
to be mentally stable, the gun is allowed to be loaded(with a safety lock in case
of kids playing with it).

but walking the street with a sidearm?
 
McGruff said:
Exactly wrong. I couldn't think of a situation where a firearm and the skill to use it efficiently would be more handy.
And I can't think of a situation where the lack of skill to use a firearm efficiently would be more deadly - potentially much more deadly (to everyone) than if you had no gun.

Maj.Striker said:
First, Eder, wasn't trying to mock or discourage your points I just thought Quarto's post was quite witty and amusing yet contained a valid argument.
Yeah, Q's always witty and amusing, but I'm still waiting for him to explain to me how my telling people I don't own a gun is the same as asking to be robbed. I'm already mocking up a picture of my house sitting next to a military base in anticipation.

Maj.Striker said:
There are other options (Mace, stun guns, tasers etc.) but for the most part these alternatives require allowing the assailant to be in extremely close proximity to you...it's possible you may not get them in time or that you misuse the item and get yourself as well as them.
As opposed to how it's *clearly* impossible to "not get them in time or misuse the item and get yourself as well as them" with a gun?

Maj.Striker said:
Besides, guns have an additional factor in that as several have mentioned they provide an enjoyable time out on a target range or perhaps for hunting.
Yes, I believe t.c.cgi makes the most valid points in this thread. But as Karl said, I don't see why you should be allowed to have a loaded gun or ammunition at home if you own a gun solely for recreational purposes.

Maj.Striker said:
So...how much does the insurance companies pay for letting him rape your wife? I'm not sure I'd want to live with myself after something like that...knowing I didn't do anything to stop him...or at the least couldn't stop him.
How much does the insurance company pay your wife when you get killed because you tried to defend your wallet? She might curse you forever for thinking of your 20 bucks over thinking of getting home safely.

For each of the crime in your example there's probably a thousand of the crimes in mine.

Maj.Striker said:
As somone else mentioned...it makes a 75 year old grandmother able to defend herself against the 250lb linebacker.
Except not. With a baseball bat, those two subjects differ only in physical strength and reflexes - anyone knows how to swing a bat, and anyone who's panicking can swing a bat just as effectively as if they were auditioning for a baseball team. A baseball bat fight is won by whoever swings the bat hard enough faster.

With a gun, those two subjects differ not in physical strength... but in reflexes and experience with a gun. Assuming the 75 year old granmother is a fast draw and has good aim, she might knock her dentures off, break her nose, and end up merely shooting the bad guy's toes off because she didn't remember what they taught her about posture and .357's recoil twenty years ago.

Maj.Striker said:
Contrary to popular belief you're not likely to be outgunned (the belief that the other guy is packing a bigger better gun than you). All guns are deadly and unless the other person is wearing body armor you're going to be roughly even.
My belief is not that you're going to get outgunned. If the criminal has a bazooka and you have a .38, who wins? Whoever draws and aims at the target and shoots first. Do I think you're more handy with your .38 than the criminal would be with his bazooka? Not necessarily.

Maj.Striker said:
If you are the victim of being robbed or some other type of crime it's because the assailant thinks he has the advantage (this can be that he's much bigger than you or has a knife or has a bat or even a gun).
So far so good. Let's call this scenario 1.

Maj.Striker said:
As soon as you show him that he no longer has his advantage...or even better yet...that he's at a disadvantage. He's more likely to bolt that anything...
Now let's call this scenario 2. My problem is how everyone assumes that carrying a gun automatically takes you from scenario 1 to scenario 2. It doesn't have to. And I think it's not worth risking, because in the event that it *doesn't* go nicely from scenario 1 to scenario 2, bad things might happen, worse than robbery.
 
cff said:
One question: WHERE did they steal the guns?
That was something that didn't come out during the trial testimony. We found out after it was over.

There were 2 alternate jurors who sat with us in case someone got sick or was dismissed early. They heard all of the testimony we did and were finally released from the jury once the 12 of us began deliberating. The alternates decided to stick around to hear the verdict if we reached one that day. While we were deliberating the prosecuting and defending attorneys approached the 2 alternates. They tried to feel them out and get a "pulse" on what the jury was thinking and to gauge the chances of which the four possible verdicts we would render:

- Culpable Negligence
- Manslaughter
- Second Degree Murder
- First Degree Murder

They filled the alternates in on a bunch of details that, for various reasons, were not brought up during the trial.

After we rendered our verdict and were excused from duty, the entire jury and the 2 alternates went across the street from the court house to a pub to get a beer, something to eat, and to just talk. The alternates told us, among other things, that one of the attorneys had said that the guns, a Taraus, a Glock, and a Smith & Wesson, were stolen from a pawn shop, somewhere in the Orlando area, during a robbery while it was closed. I don't remember with 100% clarity how they were stolen, when they stolen, etc. At the time it seemed like a minor detail. It didn't pertain directly to the trial, had we known about it during testimony or not, because it wouldn't have influenced our verdict. The defendant obviously became involved at some point. I do remember being told that he, or one, or he and both of his buddies were involved in the break-in and they stole the pistols. I'm sorry my memory isn't a little better.

That experience was the 4th and most recent time I've had jury duty. If called upon again I'd go, but I'm not sure how enthusiastic I'd be. My father and mother are both 61 years old and have never had jury duty.
 
A gun is a tool. It is morally neutral. In the hands of a good person, it is a good thing. In the hands of a bad person, it is a bad thing. If someone decides to pursue a criminal life, and gets snuffed out by someone defending his good life against the bad guy, too bad. If they had not pursued a criminal life, they could go on living out a long, healthy, hopefully productive life.

By the way, if a cop offs a bad guy, is that good or bad? If police review finds it justified, that is.

CYA!
 
Eder said:
Yes, I believe t.c.cgi makes the most valid points in this thread. But as Karl said, I don't see why you should be allowed to have a loaded gun or ammunition at home if you own a gun solely for recreational purposes.

I don't keep my gun loaded, but personal ownership of ammunition and storage inside your own home simplifies things. The range I visit is outdoors, and there is no station there. I can't go to the range and buy ammo as I need it. Furthermore it is cheaper to buy it in bulk either at a gun show or from an online warehouse than at such a station (if it existed), or even at Wal-Mart. Yes, Wal-Mart prices can be beat without having to break the geneva conventions!

It's cost effective and convenient for me to have my own ammunition. Plus I can pre-load my en-block clips. Ammunition comes in boxes, and the places that do sell it in clips aren't retailers, but warehouses.

Plus it's ulracool to go to the range with my WW2 GI uniform with ammunition ready to go in my bandoleers and belt pockets. Yes, I'm a dork, but I'm a dork with a gun, so watch out! :p
 
Eder said:
Yeah, Q's always witty and amusing, but I'm still waiting for him to explain to me how my telling people I don't own a gun is the same as asking to be robbed. I'm already mocking up a picture of my house sitting next to a military base in anticipation.

Well, I'm not a criminal so I must admit I probably have a handicap when I try to put myself into a burgular's shoes but for example, I'm walking down your street and I'm thinking to myself that I need to break into someone's house tonight because I'm running low on dough I'm going to have a look around. Now as a criminal, my number one concern or fear (statistics have borne this out in an overwhelming number according to the US Justice Department) is that the house I break into might belong to someone who owns a gun. I look over and I see your sign that says essentially that you have no guns. DING! Your house just got promoted to number 1 on my list. I'd probably do some more checking and so forth but unless there are some extenuating circumstances then you're my target tonight.

As opposed to how it's *clearly* impossible to "not get them in time or misuse the item and get yourself as well as them" with a gun?

As far as I'm aware there is no competency test or permit required to purchase a taser, stun gun, mace can etc as there is for a handguns. Ignorance breeds incompetence.

Yes, I believe t.c.cgi makes the most valid points in this thread. But as Karl said, I don't see why you should be allowed to have a loaded gun or ammunition at home if you own a gun solely for recreational purposes.

I said that was an additional bonus to owning a gun...not the sole purpose.

How much does the insurance company pay your wife when you get killed because you tried to defend your wallet? She might curse you forever for thinking of your 20 bucks over thinking of getting home safely.

For each of the crime in your example there's probably a thousand of the crimes in mine.

A bit different context, I was referring to a rape circumstance while you are referring to a robbery. If I was armed and someone tried to rob me of my wallet with a gun (so that they have a gun and I have a concealed gun) and someone else was present other than myself. I would probably hand him my wallet without thinking much more about it. If they tried to harm the other person (hit them, punch them, stab them, etc). I'm yanking out my pistol and capping them even if it means risking my life. Just because someone has a gun doesn't necessarily mean they have to use it or that they will use it. It's about having that option there if you DO need it .

Except not. With a baseball bat, those two subjects differ only in physical strength and reflexes - anyone knows how to swing a bat, and anyone who's panicking can swing a bat just as effectively as if they were auditioning for a baseball team. A baseball bat fight is won by whoever swings the bat hard enough faster.

With a gun, those two subjects differ not in physical strength... but in reflexes and experience with a gun. Assuming the 75 year old granmother is a fast draw and has good aim, she might knock her dentures off, break her nose, and end up merely shooting the bad guy's toes off because she didn't remember what they taught her about posture and .357's recoil twenty years ago.

There's a mistake as well...a mistake that is common to a lot of people. One of the very first things any person who wants to own a gun should do (after learning proper gun safety!) is to pick a gun that fits them. For example, I'm about 6 feet tall and weigh 190lbs and am about average in my physical stature I can fire a .357 comfortable...I can probably fire anything up to a .44 magnum comfortably. However, I have only one handgun and that is a 9mm. I picked the caliber and gun size that fits me perfectly. A 75 grandmother would be best picking a .22 caliber LR or Magnum...the recoil is minimal at best and even if she's holding it cowboy style then she'll probably be alright. Always always always pick the gun that's right for you. Sometimes out on the shooting range I see guys bragging to each other about these big ole guns that they're toting and then they can't hit the broadside of the barn while I'm grouping shots close to center with my little 9mm or sometimes even a .22.


My belief is not that you're going to get outgunned. If the criminal has a bazooka and you have a .38, who wins? Whoever draws and aims at the target and shoots first. Do I think you're more handy with your .38 than the criminal would be with his bazooka? Not necessarily.

My context has been about guns in general not anti tank weapons. It would be pretty hard for the average criminal to be walking down the street with his bazooka without drawing some attention. I think a better example would be a full automatic versus someone with a revolver or semi. It still really matters about who has the better shot and fires first. I'd take those odds over a me being unarmed against a 7 foot behemoth with a stilletto.


My problem is how everyone assumes that carrying a gun automatically takes you from scenario 1 to scenario 2. It doesn't have to. And I think it's not worth risking, because in the event that it *doesn't* go nicely from scenario 1 to scenario 2, bad things might happen, worse than robbery.

True I can't argue that just carrying a gun automatically takes you to the position I described earlier but I can say that on average it will. There are always exceptions to every rule. I can say that I would feel safer knowing I had a fallback plan in a concealed weapon. Like I mentioned before...just because I could carry one doesn't mean I would use it...but it's there if worse comes to worse. I always want to be ready for the worse case scenario.
 
Hey guys, what's the story with that "kill bill" in Florida? Will it actually pass?
Man, am I happy I'm not living in America!
 
Confed said:
Hey guys, what's the story with that "kill bill" in Florida? Will it actually pass?
Man, am I happy I'm not living in America!

You think that legislation has anything to do with the law in practice? The Judicial branch interprets the law, and their interpretations become "case law." The fact is you can shoot a man dead if he threatens your life. If Bigg Doggy gang banger points a gun at me I can put one in his head and two in his chest. All Jeb and gang are doing is putting to paper what many judges have already said in Florida.

Again, 'liberal' media perpetuating the false idea that it's the wild west. The times goes so far as to call it that.. Thank you, export culture...
 
Eder said:
There are other variables to consider - as you've argued yourself, for god's sake.
Yes, indeed. But each of those variables works on a different level, and none of them change the fact that the remaining variables are still in effect - and that obviously includes the gun variable.

Variable #1 - guns - costs nothing financially. In fact, by allowing people to own guns, you're saving tons of money which would otherwise be lost trying to prevent ordinary people from obtaining guns illegally (because ordinary people, just like criminals, will also be willing to break the law to get illegal firearms under some circumstances, usually when their lives or the lives of their family depend on it). Of course, legalising gun possession is likely to have some political impact, but nowhere near as much as #3 and #4 - no one is going to stop trading with your country just because of that.

Variable #2 - police - hugely expensive. There is no country in the world that has a bad police force on purpose - and yet, most countries in the world have a bad police force. This is also because, as the court ruling pointed out by Death indicates, the job of the police is not intervention, it's prevention and uh... postvention? :p The police simply cannot be everywhere at once, so unless you live in a police station, you have almost no chance of seeing a police officer help you if somebody attacks you.

Variable #3 - death penalty - costs big-time. Sadly, most countries today cannot afford this, even though logically it should be a money-saver (a bullet is cheaper than twenty-five years of food and lodgings for criminals). Why? Because unless you're a significant, global economic power, the re-introduction of the death penalty is likely to bring down an economic embargo upon your country, and even if things don't go quite that far, it's really not helpful when all of Europe refuses to speak to you (Brazil would probably get away with it, because it's a huge market - this is mainly Poland I'm speaking about).

Variable #4 - making prisons hell - again, should be a money-saver. But again, today's political climate would make this a bad step. Ironically, as I understand it, Brazil's already managed to do it already :p - but as Brazil's example shows this step is actually counter-productive if you do not also have a security force sufficient to keep the captured criminals in prison. This was also the case in PNG - it often took weeks for escaped criminals (usually armed with weapons from subdued prison guards) to be recaptured, in many cases with several civilian and police deaths along the way.


I believe the above demonstrates at least to a limited degree why in many cases, legalising gun possession is the only thing a country really can do to protect its citizens in today's world. I believe this also makes it the only thing that citizens can obtain by applying pressure on the government. I mean, you can't really pressure the government into improving the police force... because all governments, by definition, are trying to have the best police force possible, and it's not for lack of trying that they fail to achieve this goal.

But, the above point is mainly an aside, because I believe that there is no reasonable argument out there against legalised gun possession. The right to bear arms stands firmly on its own two feet as the only sensible option, for the following reasons (which mostly have already been mentioned in this thread, but still bear repeating):

1. Outlawing guns does not prevent people from having them. Criminals will still be able to obtain them, because - just like with illegal drugs - basic economic laws insist that as long as there is a demand, there will be a supply. So, outlawing guns...

2. ...Only prevents honest citizens from legally owning guns. So, if somebody wishes to defend himself with firearms, you are preventing him from doing so - while at the same time, you are unable to prevent his attackers from bearing firearms. This is not reasonable - it makes you an indirect accessory to murder. Meanwhile, if firearms are legal...

3. The choice is in the hands of the individual. If you normally only carry twenty bucks in your wallet, you don't need to take a gun with you. That 75-year old grandma, if she doesn't feel she can use the gun for her own safety, is not being forced to own a gun. And, like with cars, most people are sane enough to assess their ability to handle such things. Most people also have family that will advise them in the matter. And...

4. ...Yes, without a doubt, some people will still die while trying to use firearms to defend themselves, and yes, by legalising gun ownership, you will be responsible for their deaths. The argument against this is the same as the argument I use when talking to people who oppose the death penalty on the grounds that it kills innocent people. You are faced with only two choices, one of which means you killing two innocent people, while the other means you doing nothing to prevent the death of ten innocent people. The latter choice may very well seem more moral at first glance - but once you are aware of the fact that your inaction has resulted in more deaths than you directly killing a few people would, you realise that you are in fact responsible for those additional deaths. So, you're choosing between being responsible for a few innocent deaths, or a lot of innocent deaths. Neither choice is pleasant, but you still must choose one of them.

5. By outlawing gun ownership, you are assuming that most people are incapable of making the right decision in regard to gun ownership and/or usage. Such assumptions are always self-fulfilling prophecies - if you treat people like idiots, they will become idiots. Similarly, most people today are incapable of saving money for their retirement, because governments assumed at some point that people are incapable of saving money for their retirement, and introduced compulsory retirement fund schemes... even though people had successfully done so for hundreds of thousands of years. It's plain and simple atrophy - an unused muscle will lose strength and eventually vanish altogether. And it is not wise to deprive people of the ability to defend themselves.


To sum up in one brief sentence - by outlawing gun ownership, you are depriving of guns everyone who would use them responsibly, without depriving of guns those who use them to harm others.

(and as for the no-gun-sign-on-the-door thing - the point is, it's completely unnatural for any living creature to advertise its defencelessness. Being defenceless does not mean that you will be attacked, especially if there are others out there that might defend you - but it certainly is a hugely risky thing to advertise; it is always better to at least give potential attackers some doubts about the degree to which you can defend yourself than to reveal your complete defencelessness)
 
Apologies for the double-post, but I just read that article t.c.cgi linked to, and I simply have to quote it :D.

The Times said:
Latest Home Office advice suggests either making a noise to scare off the burglar or staying quiet in the hope that they will leave you alone.

Yes indeed, this is the best possible advice you could ever be given - try making noise... and if that doesn't work, try not making noise!
 
Heh heh. And the the universal noise that EVERY burglar understands the best is the unmistakable racking of a pump action shotgun.
 
McGruff said:
Exactly wrong. I couldn't think of a situation where a firearm and the skill to use it efficiently would be more handy.

I beg you pardon, but when a robber is standing before me, weapon drawn what use would a loaded weapon I carry have? Do you expect to draw and fire faster then he fires?! Wow Mr. Lucky Lucke - I admire you.
 
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