Gothri Question

What ever happened to the Gothri? It was a premiere fighter in WC2 and had a nice role in privateer. But after that it completely disappeared, where did it go? was it at the Battle of Earth?
 

Moonsword

Spaceman
Presumably, it was at the Battle of Earth as one of the main front-line fighters. Note that during WC3, they had been retired to second-tier use... like commerce raiding in lesser-priority sectors like Gemini, which would be exactly where we see them. WC3 and Privateer happen basically simultaneously, remember - Priv is a year after the Battle of Earth, in 2669, and in Righteous Fire, you're really seeing Kilrathi who are breakaways from the main Empire, based on what we learn in False Colors.

After the war is over, I'd imagine the Gothri just became rarer and rarer, since it wasn't in production for very long and there were similar fighters available that were cheaper. Not better, no, but cheaper and easier to make.
 

Dyret

Super Carrot!
Note that during WC3, they had been retired to second-tier use... like commerce raiding in lesser-priority sectors like Gemini, which would be exactly where we see them.

We frequently attack enemy convoys in front line fighters in WC3... Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. :)
 

Moonsword

Spaceman
WC3 focuses on the front lines, which Gemini isn't (something that Privateer, among other sources, is quite clear on). The Kilrathi and Confed were both pouring their best (i.e., newest) fighters into the main fronts in Enigma and Vega while Gemini, the Landreich, and others got to rely on older gear.

Also, by "WC3", I meant the time period (2669), not the game.
 

NinjaLA

Alex Von T.
actually, WC3 isn't even on the front lines.. most of it takes place well behind enemy lines.. its silly to assume that the super heavy gothri would be in every theater of operation at once.
 

Dyret

Super Carrot!
WC3 focuses on the front lines, which Gemini isn't (something that Privateer, among other sources, is quite clear on).

I don't think I've ever said anything else.

The Kilrathi and Confed were both pouring their best (i.e., newest) fighters into the main fronts in Enigma and Vega while Gemini, the Landreich, and others got to rely on older gear.

Then why do we see the Paradigm, supposedly Confed's most advanced destroyer, and the Dralthi VII, the first fighter to mount a functioning fusion cannon in Gemini? Besides, IIRC alot, if not most of the Confed ships we see in WC3 are ancient.
 

Moonsword

Spaceman
The Dralthi VII model in question debuts after WC3 is already over, Dyret. They're also notably testing the weapon on a proven platform and in an area where it won't cripple their efforts if it blows up in their face. The Paradigm, demonstrably, isn't as tough as the Southampton. It may be more advanced but 'advanced' and 'most capable' are two different concepts. It's also not a fighter. I wasn't talking about capships.

The ancient fighters line is questionable. The Arrow's introduction has moved back over time, although the specific model in WC3 is more advanced than the older ones, I'm thinking. Armada and WC3 both implied it was new. The Hellcat may have, again, had an older model, but we don't have any idea what the background there is. Unquestionably, the Hellcat is again more advanced the Rapier II - the specific model is definitely more advanced, even if the spaceframe is older. The Thunderbolt VII is older, yes, but... it's more heavily armed and tougher, once more, than things like the Raptor and Sabre it replaces. (Although the Sabre is more fairly compared to the Hellcat, I'm thinking.) It could just be a question of the upgrade cycles. We also know from commentary in various places that the older fighters were retired in favor of these newer models after the Battle of Earth, so they're still more advanced.
 

NinjaLA

Alex Von T.
erhrm.. Privateer takes place before the end of the war.. and ALL the dralthi's you seein that game are dralthi VII. the WC3 dralthi is the dralthi IV, which implies you are NOT seeing top of the line fighters on either side in WC3
 

Dyret

Super Carrot!
The Dralthi VII model in question debuts after WC3 is already over, Dyret.

Yeah, the refitted version comes into play later, that was a badly written post by me. Thing is, as Ninja already pointed out, the Dralthi VII is both newer and more advanced than the Dralthi IV, the most common front line fighter... Its not raiding "backwater" systems because its incredibly old or crappy or some sort of inferior craft, but because it has the jumpdrive to do it. Even if the Gemini ones may not be to impressive compared to WC3 front line fighter doesn't mean they're not given the same shield gen/armor/weapon upgrades as the older craft if or when deployed there.

The Paradigm, demonstrably, isn't as tough as the Southampton. It may be more advanced but 'advanced' and 'most capable' are two different concepts.

Being in a relatively quiet system it might not be equipted(sp?) with the latest technologies. A frontline Paradigm, like any of confeds much older craft probably has a lot more staying power.

It's also not a fighter. I wasn't talking about capships.

Why would there be a difference? If Confed would only deploy old crappy fighter in a sector they sure as hell wouldn't waste their top of the line destroyers on it.

We also know from commentary in various places that the older fighters were retired in favor of these newer models after the Battle of Earth

Source, please.

Oh, and sorry about any typos, I'm writing this on my brothers weird keyboard.

And Ninja, I love your avatar!
 

RogueBanshee

Rear Admiral
Being in a relatively quiet system it might not be equipted(sp?) with the latest technologies. A frontline Paradigm, like any of confeds much older craft probably has a lot more staying power.

The probelm with that theory is that that Paradigm is equipped with the Tachyon gun which is one of the newest weapons in Confed's arsenal. IMO It would make more sense if the Paradigm was a corvette-class instead of a destroyer-class, based on what we know of it's armarment and stats and the fact that it's Kilrathi eqilivant is either a corvette-class or a destroyer-class which shares it's name with a corvette-class.
 

Moonsword

Spaceman
...arrgh, stupid system wiping out my typing! No problem about typos, not that I saw any anyway.

The Dralthi VII. I have two questions, only one of which is directly on point. First, how do we know that's a new model and not, say, the Dralthi III? Was that in the Arena manual? Second, if it's a new model, why use the older weapons and shields? If you're going to the trouble to build a brand new spaceframe and design, why use equipment that is going to get the bird zapped in one hit by any modern fighter (like an Arrow)? For that matter, why not deploy the new weapons, at least, to make it a more effective fighter and seize a temporary advantage by either blocking Confed's flow of resources (a strategy the Cats were starting to use, IIRC) or forcing them to divert front-line gear to Gemini to stop you? I know the Kilrathi don't think in the same strategic terms humans do, but there's alien thinking and there's just plain stupid. This is verging on the latter, at least to me.

The Paradigm has the same problem, although Confed, for a capship, can more easily claim the resource shortage excuse, given their strategic situation post-BoE. I wasn't dealing with capships because then you get into the carriers debate, which is a different matter entirely, and also because capships take much longer to manufacture than a fighter. I'd expect their replacement and upgrade cycles to lag behind somewhat, although the ones in Vega don't seem to. (This lag would also explain the sudden jump in fighter lethality in WC3 vs. capships - the weapons on fighters improved while the defenses on capships stagnated!) Fighters, on the other hand, don't take as long to manufacture and are easier to move around (not deploy, but move around in crates). Their upgrade cycle should be tighter... and it is - think about how fast the Scimitar was phased out after the Rapier II came into service. We also never see any Hornets or Raptors in the WC2 novels or games, despite the fact that the Raptor, at least, remains a potent warplane, so they were clearly replaced on the front lines by that point to a fair extent.

The source on the fighters being phased out I can't recall precisely, but I seem to recall both Victory Streak and False Colors mentioning something along those lines. If not, I apologize for the bad reference. (Later perusal of Victory Streak finds it doesn't - a false memory on my part.)

Moving back to the old spaceframes question, note the distinction I made between the basic design and the specific model. We have reason to suspect that something similar to the Arrow, Hellcat, Thunderbolt, and Longbow were around in the 2650's. The Arrow, Hellcat, and Thunderbolt may be older designations in the same sequence (III, IV, and VI, respectively), but the spaceframes were at least vaguely there.

In any case, between Armada and WC3, the Arrow IV had clearly changed from a blisteringly fast scout to a somewhat slower, much nastier light dogfighter. This wasn't some piddling little thing like the Ferret and Super Ferret or a matter of new technologies, it speaks to a serious makeover of the whole design that retained the same overall look, similar to what happened in the middle of the Rapier II's service in the Kilrathi War. The Arrow IVs flown off the Victory couldn't even mount a dumbfire, which was the only missile on those flown from the Lexington, and had four times the missile mounts and twice the guns, as well as shields that would make a Broadsword envious!

I expect that, similarly, the specific models in production were upgraded, nasty customers, not just rehashes of the older birds, like you seemed to think I was suggesting. In fact, Victory Streak has a neat tidbit on the upgrade front: "The ship's responsive speed controls and quick turn radius make the latest Hellcat the best all-around ship in the fleet." This suggests that however old the basic design, the specific models are anything but old.

If Confed was deploying its top-of-the-line destroyers to a sector, why are those "most advanced" destroyers demonstrably inferior in firepower and defensive strength to a front-line light fighter? If we take the numbers at face value, one of Victory's Arrows would see a Paradigm as little more than a target drone... and, alarmingly, so would a Darket. Also, my point on the Paradigm was that its electronics might be superior, while its weapons and shields were less capable than those of the Southampton.

It might also be a case of, like the Yorktown light carriers, the TCN bumping the ship up a weight class for information control purposes. I don't think the Paradigm is all that large, compared to the fighters in Privateer, but then, that engine isn't precisely the most reliable for size comparisons, either. Still, it would explain a few things, but I'm going to go ahead and note that this is nothing but conjecture on my part.

There's another point to consider on the capships, and the reason I left them out. Capships are larger and, importantly, more expensive investments in terms of time, money, and resources, things that Confed had in short supply. Since fighters are cheaper and also the main striking weight of the fleet, I'd expect them to focus on fighter upgrades. We also know that the Navy was bringing older capships forward - specifically, the Yorktowns. I wanted to sidestep the capship debate because different parameters apply to it in terms of cost, strategic implications, manufacturing constraints, etc.

Finally, an interesting notion occurred to me while writing this post. What if the order of magnitude jump in firepower and defensive strength isn't? What if TCN/TCSF just changed their evaluation yardstick? It would neatly explain the inconsistency between Privateer - a realm of civilians, who wouldn't necessarily be up to date on military bureaucracy - and also Armada, which would have taken place right before they did it. This is nothing but conjecture, of course, but it would explain a lot of things.
 

Moonsword

Spaceman
The probelm with that theory is that that Paradigm is equipped with the Tachyon gun which is one of the newest weapons in Confed's arsenal. IMO It would make more sense if the Paradigm was a corvette-class instead of a destroyer-class, based on what we know of it's armarment and stats and the fact that it's Kilrathi eqilivant is either a corvette-class or a destroyer-class which shares it's name with a corvette-class.

The tachyon guns available in Gemini and those on the Excalibur are different weapons. Specifically, the civilian-grade ones don't do as much damage, even relative to their targets. They also look very different, and we know that a fairly large change in appearance applied to the changes between WC3/4 era tachyon cannons and those in Prophecy.

EDIT: While perusing the WC Bible looking for background information on the developers' thoughts about something else, I happened across something. The Arrow, at least, is an older fighter... but again, the model in question is a new product. The Bible isn't canon, but it does speak to what the developers thought when they wrote it. Interesting tidbit, don't you think?

Unfortunately, we didn't get any extra information on what they were thinking regarding the magnitude jump between WC2 and WC3.
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
What ever happened to the Gothri? It was a premiere fighter in WC2 and had a nice role in privateer. But after that it completely disappeared, where did it go?

It was very close to showing up in Arena. But there's really not a lot of other places it could have been. It was in Privateer, which is the end of the war. We don't have a lot of opportunity to see Kilrathi heavy fighters after that point.

In regards to the rest of the thread, people shouldn't get hung up on what fighters are seen where. It's kind of a mistaken to get into elaborate theories for why X fighter is in Y sector and why A fighter isn't in B sector. Virtually all fighters and ships are candidates to be seen in almost all timeframes and theaters throughout the Wing Commander series. We only see a tiny slice of the total arsenal being used at any given place at any certain time.
 

Madman

Vice Admiral
A thought occurs on this, since In-System Security is definably a different organisation from the navy itself (see the beginning of wc2 when tolwyn tells us that hes had a request from insys for an experience pilot) it is possible that they are funded seperately, if the insys navy is funded by local governments (outside of whatever funds they pay in tax to the confederation, which in turn pay for the confederation navy) then they could well afford better/more recently produced vehicles than the navy itself (which has to buy in bulk and cover the entirity of known space. For that reason, local government on the confed side could have bought the gladius' and paradigms we see in priv, and equally the renegade kilrathis seen flying gothris etc could have acquired them via their clans straight from the manufacturers.

Equally though, we do only see very specific segments of the war and the ships involved, in wc1 on a front-line carrier fighting forward to take vega, we see some cutting edge ships replacing the older vessels. equally, in wc2, where we are taking part in defending against a serious enemy incursion we see some newer vehicles (ferret for instance, which we have to assume is the first revision, and yet we know the arrow was around before, and the sabre) and also some older vehicles (the rapier and the broadsword). finally in wc3, the navy is losing the war, most of the active ships presumably fought in the battle of terra/were decommisioned during the run up to the battle, in which case many of the cutting edge warships/fighters flown by the navy were probably disposed of. however local systems would not necessarily have to obey the decomissioning orders, given that their forces primary function was to defend against smugglers and pirates. hence they could have bought the newer models from factories suddenly left with a lot of stock and no-one to sell them to. again we know that the majority of the wc3 fleet is old (mothballed?) vessels (eg the victory) whose careers have been very "long and distinguished" to quote blair!

referring back to the gothri though, im less worried about its dissapearance than the fact that the gladius (in priv and armada, and also if memory serves in wca) and especially the sabre and the crossbow (and the morning star!) served ridiculously short careers (though the morning-star might have had a reason for its quick removal from service ;)

lets all bow our heads and mourn the sabre ...
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
A thought occurs on this, since In-System Security is definably a different organisation from the navy itself (see the beginning of wc2 when tolwyn tells us that hes had a request from insys for an experience pilot)

There are individual militia units that belong to individual systems that presumably have their own budgets and infrastructures, but In-System Security isn't one of them. If anything, it's the Coast Guard is US terms, but still a formal Confed-wide entity.

For that reason, local government on the confed side could have bought the gladius' and paradigms we see in priv, and equally the renegade kilrathis seen flying gothris etc could have acquired them via their clans straight from the manufacturers.

In-Sys probably doesn't have much to do with the Gemini Sector, and the local militias probably aren't out there buying up Confed's most advanced destroyers.

in wc2, where we are taking part in defending against a serious enemy incursion we see some newer vehicles (ferret for instance, which we have to assume is the first revision,

You're making a lot of assumptions here. We know from Joan's that the Ferret we see in WC2 is at least the third revision. Never never never assume a fighter or ship is new in the Wing Commander universe because because it's the first time the fighter is introduced to play.

again we know that the majority of the wc3 fleet is old (mothballed?) vessels (eg the victory) whose careers have been very "long and distinguished" to quote blair!

We know this is the case of one ship, the Victory. There are fancy new ships throughout the Confederation at the same time though. There's lots more stuff in service than just what we see on the Victory.

referring back to the gothri though, im less worried about its dissapearance than the fact that the gladius (in priv and armada, and also if memory serves in wca) and especially the sabre and the crossbow (and the morning star!) served ridiculously short careers

If you're assuming that the Morningstar was "discontinued" because you don't see it in Wing Commander 3, that's wrong. Academy tells us that after WC2, the Morningstar goes on to become the current state-of-the-art frontline Confed fighter-bomber. We just don't see them on the Victory. This is why it's so tough to try and make up elaborate explanations about this sort of thing. There's lots of little facts that people are missing, and the consistent flaw in people's theories is that they see the few ships that we fly in a particular game and assume that everything is new and nothing else exists anymore.
 

Madman

Vice Admiral
I appreciate that Insys isnt a local thing, but since its a different section under the confee government, we can assume it has its own budget, hence could maybe have bought the vessels we see in priv. Also, how do we know that insys has no real presence in gemini?

apologies on the ferret :D though i think my over-riding point remains valid?

I appreciate that the victory is just one slice of the war, that was kind of my point, partly that theres lots of old ships been drawn out of retirement to make up the losses, and also lots of new ships being built,
and also because the victory isnt a front-line ship (we know that victory isnt fighting on the same lines that say the concordia had)

finally, i hadnt assumed that the morning star etc were discontinued, my mourning was because we never see them again!
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
I appreciate that Insys isnt a local thing, but since its a different section under the confee government, we can assume it has its own budget, hence could maybe have bought the vessels we see in priv. Also, how do we know that insys has no real presence in gemini

The reason Blair was reassigned to In-Sys was because it was more of a filler organization that watches the quiet sectors. It's not really their job to use Confed's most advanced equipment on the front lines.
 

Vinman

Vice Admiral
I appreciate that Insys isnt a local thing, but since its a different section under the confee government, we can assume it has its own budget, hence could maybe have bought the vessels we see in priv. Also, how do we know that insys has no real presence in gemini?

apologies on the ferret :D though i think my over-riding point remains valid?

I appreciate that the victory is just one slice of the war, that was kind of my point, partly that theres lots of old ships been drawn out of retirement to make up the losses, and also lots of new ships being built,
and also because the victory isnt a front-line ship (we know that victory isnt fighting on the same lines that say the concordia had)

finally, i hadnt assumed that the morning star etc were discontinued, my mourning was because we never see them again!

I had always assumed that those were ISS fighters that helped out during Secret Ops.
 
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