Genocide!

St_Eddie

Captain
Does anybody else feel really unconformable with the ending to WC3? It's kinda sick. I would imagine that there would be kilrathi whom were against the war. The way that the "protagonist" destroys their entire planet; sorry, it just doesn't sit right with me!

It's kinda messed up, no? Literal genocide. Yet, we're supposed to feel good about that? Doesn't help that I love kitty cats!
 
It's kinda messed up, yes. Obviously it parallels the end of WW2, and the moral debate plays out more or less the same way.

I don't think their intent at the time was particularly to inspire thought or discussion, rather just to have a big awesome explosion to fly away from. But I figure the fact that it does cause plenty of people to stop and think is a good thing. So even if they didn't intend to have a morally-dubious ending, those endings can be good food for thought, and plenty of "heroic" stories have them (again, intentionally or not).

There are numerous questionable things in how WC3 handled the Kilrathi in general (with Hobbes being the crux of it), which I know especially frustrates some members of the community to no end. :D
 
Does anybody else feel really unconformable with the ending to WC3? It's kinda sick. I would imagine that there would be kilrathi whom were against the war. The way that the "protagonist" destroys their entire planet; sorry, it just doesn't sit right with me!

It's kinda messed up, no? Literal genocide. Yet, we're supposed to feel good about that? Doesn't help that I love kitty cats!
The Kilrathi were forty-eight hours away from launching their final assault on Earth, and the remaining inner colonies that hadn't been irradiated by Strontium 90 Warheads.

The Kilrathi chose to play the genocide card first with the Strontium 90 warheads at Sirus Prime, Warsaw, Gilead, and Hannover. They then doubled down with the Bioweapons in Loconda.

It was no longer a case of just winning or losing the war. It had become a fight for survival, give no quarter as none will be given to you.

Confed had no options to win conventionally; at that point, they had to use the T-Bomb. Any chances of winning conventionally died with the false peace and the six months that followed.

By using the T-Bomb, the majority of the Kilrathi Fleet that was being outfitted in shipyards around Kilrah was destroyed by the blast. It also cut the head off the Kilrathi command structure as both the Emperor and Prince Thrakath were killed.

Even if the Kilrathi chose to continue fighting, they would have been cut down to a more manageable number. Chances are they would have started fighting amongst themselves to determine who would lead the remains of the empire.

As far as how to feel about destroying Kilrah... From my perspective, I'd say it was a case of feeling relieved that it was over. Would you do it again if you had to...? That's the ultimate question.
 
There's a lot of political and moral philosophizing that goes into this.
Was it genocide? Not really at least no more so than the A Bomb attacks during WW2. The Japanese people, as a race, were not wiped out in those attacks but it was a massive hit to their population. The Kilrathi, likewise, were spread out far enough within the galaxy that they would not die out as a race. The main difference is that the Kilrathi venerated their home world far more than the Japanese venerated their islands so that is the main ideological punch that comes with that attack. Even after Hiroshima and Nagasaki were destroyed there were many Japanese, both civilian and military, that wanted to carry on the fight regardless. That's where the disconnect lies between these two events.
But, ultimately, I think the whole reasoning for this can be summed up perfectly in a quote from Ryan George, "Oh, you're doing a Star Wars."
And that's about it.
 
Strictly speaking it was not genocide as many Kilrathi survive in a number of other planets. Still yes, I was hoping for a different ending like blowing up prince Thrakath's dreadnought with the emperor on board, thus wiping out the imperial family and causing a major internal upheaval. Additionally, I did not feel quite comfortable with how easily Maverick forgets Angel as well as with how easily Tolwyn lies to keep everyone fighting. But I suppose this is what happens in war.
 
Also if we confine ourselves to the in-universe world, this perfectly sums it up.
Confed had no options to win conventionally; at that point, they had to use the T-Bomb. Any chances of winning conventionally died with the false peace and the six months that followed.
 
I actually think the ending of Wing Commander III is significantly less morally questionable than the use of the atomic bombs in World War II.

In WC3, the Confederation is on the brink of total defeat. We know what happens to species conquered by the Kilrathi. Surrender isn’t an option; it would mean the end of humanity. The final mission destroys Kilrah, killing the Emperor, the military command, and presumably billions of civilians. It’s horrific—but the trade is clear: the lives of those civilians for the survival of every human and the freedom of countless more across hundreds of worlds. It’s a last-ditch act of total war, driven by existential necessity.

Compare that to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The justification given was to “save lives” by avoiding a land invasion of Japan—but this meant killing tens of thousands of civilians to spare combatants. That’s a very different moral equation. Moreover, it’s now widely understood that Japan was already close to surrender, especially if the US had guaranteed the Emperor’s position. The atomic bombings weren’t a desperate final move—they were a demonstration of power, aimed at securing geopolitical advantage in the postwar world, particularly in relation to the Soviet Union.

On a scale that large weapons of mass destruction aren’t inherently unjustifiable, they have to be weighed against the alternatives. With the destruction of Kilrah, the alternative was extinction. In WW2, it was arguably a negotiated surrender. One act ended a war humanity couldn’t win. The other ended a war Japan had already lost.
 
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I believe Wing Commander III is a lot smarter than most people think. There's a tendency to push it as "it's just a video game, of course you nuke the bad guys!" and I don't think that's really the case at all. At the risk of sounding like a huge dork, Wing Commander III is a much more complex piece of art than people recognize.

To this point: the game's story absolutely intends for you to know that what you're doing is wrong and it also wants to manipulate you into feeling that's the only choice. We are told again and again that it's an immoral thing: Blair is disgusted with Tolwyn attacking Kilrah without warning, Vagabond tells us about how Dr. Severin murdered /millions of people/ making the bomb. We're told that Confed is lying to us about civilians being present on Hyperion. You aren't uniformed and you aren't being set up to beat a boss battle and feel good about it.

At the same time, it dares you to do it. There are so many beats put there for this reason: the Kilrathi are using similarly immoral bioweapons! Earth will lose the war! They've killed your girlfriend! Your friend Paladin says it's okay! It's not a coincidence that all of these elements of the story are set up in the intro and then come into play in act 3. The whole game is trying to get you to say uncle; this is wrong but you still have to do it.

There's an absolutely wrongheaded idea that Wing Commander I and II are brilliant and Wing Commander III is cheap because they went Hollywood and attracted a bigger audience in the process. That's objectively not true! They spent money on real actors and writers to tell a more complex, structured story and they did… exactly that.

(Wing Commander III's references to the atomic bomb project aren't just the Death Star; it comes from the fact that Borst and De Palma were native New Mexicans who had a particular relationship with the bomb… and that shows pretty clearly in the text. Vagabond's story about Severin killing the Paxans to develop the weapon is specifically adapting the experience of the Downwinders… which is an element left out by less complex works like, say, Nolan's Oppenheimer.)


Was it genocide? Not really at least no more so than the A Bomb attacks during WW2. The Japanese people, as a race, were not wiped out in those attacks but it was a massive hit to their population. The Kilrathi, likewise, were spread out far enough within the galaxy that they would not die out as a race. The main difference is that the Kilrathi venerated their home world far more than the Japanese venerated their islands so that is the main ideological punch that comes with that attack. Even after Hiroshima and Nagasaki were destroyed there were many Japanese, both civilian and military, that wanted to carry on the fight regardless. That's where the disconnect lies between these two events.

I don't think this is the right interpretation of genocide. It's not slaughtering every single person in a particular group, it's intentionally working to destroy a culture (successfully or not) and killing a lot of people in the process. Kilrah is a more clear cut example of genocide because there's a clear intent to wipe out the basis for Kilrathi culture. That's part of a very different end goal but that's the case with any genocide. Paladin knows that he's wiping out their entire political apparatus, the core of their religion and billions of civilians and he's doing all that on purpose to end the war. (The atomic bombings are a little looser here; it's pretty clear the planners were treating it like a bigger bombing raid. The target committee believed they chose Hiroshima and the other sites for their specific contributions to the war and they specifically removed Kyoto as a target because of the potential for doing more damage to Japan's culture.)

I actually think the ending of Wing Commander III is significantly less morally questionable than the use of the atomic bombs in World War II.

In WC3, the Confederation is on the brink of total defeat. We know what happens to species conquered by the Kilrathi. Surrender isn’t an option; it would mean the end of humanity. The final mission destroys Kilrah, killing the Emperor, the military command, and presumably billions of civilians. It’s horrific—but the trade is clear: the lives of those civilians for the survival of every human and the freedom of countless more across hundreds of worlds. It’s a last-ditch act of total war, driven by existential necessity.

Compare that to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The justification given was to “save lives” by avoiding a land invasion of Japan—but this meant killing tens of thousands of civilians to spare combatants. That’s a very different moral equation. Moreover, it’s now widely understood that Japan was already close to surrender, especially if the US had guaranteed the Emperor’s position. The atomic bombings weren’t a desperate final move—they were a demonstration of power, aimed at securing geopolitical advantage in the postwar world, particularly in relation to the Soviet Union.

On a scale that large weapons of mass destruction aren’t inherently unjustifiable, they have to be weighed against the alternatives. With the destruction of Kilrah, the alternative was extinction. In WW2, it was arguably a negotiated surrender. One act ended a war humanity couldn’t win. The other ended a war Japan had already lost.

That's the genius of it, though: everything Wing Commander III tells us about why the bombing was necessary is exactly what was told to Americans in 1945 and what was taught to Americans for generations (and probably still is). The Kilrathi are monsters who would do the same thing if they could! It saved hundreds of times as many lives! There would've been a horrible invasion otherwise! Think of the long term geopolitics! And so on. And the game wants you to question if it's true even in the moment (especially when you have the newsbriefs that are written to confirm Rollins and Vagabond's claims that Confed is lying about everything!). It just confuses people because it doesn't give you a final answer... and it doesn't do that because there isn't one.

To that end, what I think matters is the next story and the one after that and honestly I think Wing Commander does an okay job there (and could do even better with more stories). We get Blair tortured by what he had to do in Wing Commander IV... and then in Wing Commander Prophecy we find out that destroying Kilrah is also what signaled the next, worse enemy to appear. That's a pretty neat take on the long term effects of the real bombing helping to define the Cold War instead of scaring the Russians as was intended!
 
That's the genius of it, though: everything Wing Commander III tells us about why the bombing was necessary is exactly what was told to Americans in 1945 and what was taught to Americans for generations (and probably still is). The Kilrathi are monsters who would do the same thing if they could! It saved hundreds of times as many lives! There would've been a horrible invasion otherwise! Think of the long term geopolitics! And so on.
I'm sure it was at least in part a generational thing but I had to defend my position (the amorality of dropping the bombs on Japan) a couple of days ago in an in-person argument - all points after the first came up. To be clear I totally agree that there's huge differences in the actual scenario, but I suppose that geared me up to be dismissive, and I was quite unfair to (and seems just plain wrong about) WC3 in the process. I should really play it again...

At the same time, it dares you to do it. There are so many beats put there for this reason: the Kilrathi are using similarly immoral bioweapons! Earth will lose the war! They've killed your girlfriend! Your friend Paladin says it's okay! It's not a coincidence that all of these elements of the story are set up in the intro and then come into play in act 3. The whole game is trying to get you to say uncle; this is wrong but you still have to do it.
And the stuff with Hobbes takes away the one tangible anchor the player has to associate the Kilrathi with being relatable or redeemable... Here was the best (only) Kilrathi we really thought we knew, and he was a sleeper agent all along! Purely from the perspective of setting up (disorienting?) the player - and presumably Blair himself - for the finale they were aiming for, it makes perfect sense.
 
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And the stuff with Hobbes takes away the one tangible anchor the player has to associate the Kilrathi with being relatable or redeemable... Here was the best (only) Kilrathi we really thought we knew, and he was a sleeper agent all along! From the perspective of setting up (disorienting?) the player for the finale they were aiming for, it makes perfect sense.

Absolutely, the game wants you to be so angry that you're willing to do something you previously knew was wrong. I think we underestimate how important the Hobbes thing was to the story as it was scripted. It was such a lynchpin that just the name of the game makes very little sense without it! (And the loss of the news broadcasts hurts, too; many of them are intended to emphasize all of this.
 
Here was the best (only) Kilrathi we really thought we knew, and he was a sleeper agent all along! Purely from the perspective of setting up (disorienting?) the player - and presumably Blair himself - for the finale they were aiming for, it makes perfect sense.
Here is the problem.

Did any Kilrathi character with personality appear in the WC3 game? From Thrakhath, Emperor to Melek, do you think any of them have a soul in the game script? I think not, all three characters are “errand characters”.

There is a very serious OOC problem here, that is, the character of Hobbes is originally created by the original creators as a member of the resistance of Ghorah Khar, and he had an excellent (first half) character arc, but WC3 forcibly modified the character design of the previous work, and in fact used the character arc of the previous work to pave the way for its own "turning point", making the character of Hobbes also a errand character - you can't feel that this character has any soul.

Then this brings us back to the topic of this post - the topic of T weapon.

In my opinion, the problem here is that the moral issues we are talking about are based on the values held by ordinary players. Does the game itself show us? I think not.

For example, if you look at the description of Kilrah in WC3, are there any non-combatants - or characters who are not in a state of battle? Have you ever seen a Kilrathi lady with her young cubs playing? Have you ever seen servants busy in the market place? Have you ever seen slaves working in the fields with collars on? I don't think so. If there is such a description that I have overlooked, please let me know.
 
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For example, if you look at the description of Kilrah in WC3, are there any non-combatants - or characters who are not in a state of battle? Have you ever seen a Kilrathi lady with her young cubs playing? Have you ever seen servants busy in the market place? Have you ever seen slaves working in the fields with collars on? I don't think so. If there is such a description that I have overlooked, please let me know.

One of the game's throughlines is that Confed headquarters is lying to you and having you slaughter Kilrathi civilians. And it does intentionally build up to the point where you 'see' this by finding that the uninhabited test planet has buildings, tanks, fighters, etc.

Vagabond: "HQ’s got a bad habit of labeling every target a military installation . . . even when they ain’t."

Hyperion 2 Briefing: "Eisen: We’re jumping into the Hyperion System, where Intell's located an uninhabited and tectonically unstable world - - a perfect test site for the weapon."

Hyperion 1 Debriefing: "Rollins: Damn, Colonel! So much for HQ's intelligence reports on this place being empty."
 
One of the game's throughlines is that Confed headquarters is lying to you and having you slaughter Kilrathi civilians.
So this paves the way for WC4. It would make sense to think that Confed HQ or at least some elements within it are unwilling to move from the war thinking/mentality/culture. This is a real problem as war is a very intense condition and people gradually descend into it, so some do not really understand how much they are immersed. If it is any (small) indication, it took me a few months to get used to civilian life after my service.
 
"Will you look on the bright side, at least now you won't have to deal with that Confed promotion that finally came through."
 
So this paves the way for WC4. It would make sense to think that Confed HQ or at least some elements within it are unwilling to move from the war thinking/mentality/culture. This is a real problem as war is a very intense condition and people gradually descend into it, so some do not really understand how much they are immersed. If it is any (small) indication, it took me a few months to get used to civilian life after my service.
The problem is not this, but that the script does not give the Kilrathi civilians, or we say, Kilrathi individuals with personalities, a sense of existence.

It is not surprising that the Confederation HQ deliberately prevented Blair and other combatants from seeing the daily lives of Kilrathi civilians, from being exposed to their non-hostile side, from being exposed to Kilrathi's emotions, daily life, and family ties, just like in Mobile Suit Gundam: The 08th MS Team, the protagonist was ridiculed in the military court, "Then how can you fire at the enemy any more?"

But what about the story itself?

If you want to reflect on an action, you should at least show the consequences of that action.

Showing the audience the necessity of the war decision in the play and showing the consequences of this decision are two different topics.
 
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t is not surprising that the Confederation HQ deliberately prevented Blair and other combatants from seeing the daily lives of Kilrathi civilians
Exactly. One of the reasons Freedom Flight feels balanced is that we see how Kilrathi live in their homeworlds.
 
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False Colors goes into the repercussions a bit more, where Admiral Richards explains to Bear that the Confederation is treating the Kilrathi delicately, though he also immediately adds that it wasn't genocide, even if it was "pretty close".

I always was disappointed that Keith died and left the rest of that story unexplored, combined with the games pivoting away from the Kilrathi. It's the most interesting period of the entire series along with the immediate postwar era. We're told there's a "five-way civil war" but aren't given any other details about the clans or society. The series always seemed reluctant to dig too deeply into Kilrathi culture, or maybe it was that they didn't want to create that kind of detail? Moreso with the games than the cartoon or novels; I wonder if this was a conscious decision. If there had been a TRPG we probably wouldn't have this issue.
 
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