General ideas

Plasteel Skull

Commodore
Cargoman said:
Sorry , the hull would also be very useful to Confed military R&D .
Therefore not allowed out of thier control without many courtmartials
and heads rolling . I just dont buy it , not beliveable .
The Messerschmitt ploy would only work if it were 2730 and
the jalthi were no longer a line unit of your enemy !
Again I'm just one loud NAY!! No more or less .
Nice tale by the way , wish I could belive it , I just can't .

How the hull would be useful? To see how many centimeters of plasteel they used this time? Staying with example of messerschmitt - did allies steal those planes to check the technology. Do the terran transports comb space where space battles took place in order to search for scraps od kilrathi hulls?

I must say that facing such opposition from you (for me) I am forced to let go. Still reasonable debate has no chance here, it seems that we are too far from each other in a way we imagine how this game should look like. You believe that you protect the pure and innocent WC universe from being bastardized by some wild ideas, yet are not open-minded enough to see, that you are stripping this game of a good amount of its potential playability - which you have a special word for - fanboyism. Well sorry to reveal the brutal truth - but i play games to have fun immersing myself in WC universe and not to having another lesson of WC trivia.

In a short time i actually enamoured in this project still now i look on it with much more sober eyes. Which does not mean that i'm turning my back on it, just will be more careful posting new ideas and will read all the WC literature before such an act.
 

t.c.cgi

Vice Admiral
Please don't throw a fit about Pioneer just because people are calling it what it is.

Using the Allies is a bad example, because the player is in no way with Confed. The player is all alone, one guy out to make a buck and a name. If some random American civilian off and stole a German plane, he would be shot at by *both* sides... IF he made it off the runway. The German Flak would hammer at him, and their interceptors would be after him. And when he crossed the line, the Allies would not care what he says. A German plane is the ENEMY, and because Mr. Civilian does not have scheduled clearance through intelligence, he will be treated as such. And it's a long shot in the dark that he would even make it onto the field to steal it.

That's the point of my suggestion. If it's put in, and made possible, it should be a bloody suicide ritual for the hardcore. However, you seem to only care that it's in and easy to get to. That doesn't make any sense at all. The only times Confed has gotten their mits on working equipment was with perfectly coordinated black ops missions and when a cat surrendered his ship.
 

Plasteel Skull

Commodore
Ok and what if american civilian would ferry a messerschmitt to neutral Sweden and there, using help of a trusted mechanic Bjorn :) would rebuild a plane. Or they (allies) would take it from him, keep for a time and then - discovering it's virtually a piece of junk would have two options - throw it to junk, or throw it to junk...officially and unofficially call that looser and sell the plane back to him? I'm beggining to enjoy this hypothetic discussion :) several posts later we will have a material for another IIww spy movie, starring Clint Eastwood ;)
 

Plasteel Skull

Commodore
t.c.cgi said:
That's the point of my suggestion. If it's put in, and made possible, it should be a bloody suicide ritual for the hardcore. However, you seem to only care that it's in and easy to get to.

But do you give any real and sensible chance to get a Jalthi or are you offering spectacular fireworks for suiciders who want to se game over after experiencing "an action of the game"? Then you say something about inability to land anywhere except some few exotic bases - like that cracknuts retro guys - no thanks, no Jalthi is good enough to be closed with them in one base! I don't know how precisely you read my post about quest for Jalthi, but the sole chance to get the quest is dim, and then there are all those complications - and you call that easy to get? For people, who consider that idea easy i left a backdoor - they can always come up with something much more dangerous and crzy - yet ther should be one condition - finally you should be able to use jalthi like any other ship - well maybe except that kilratish texts - i must admit this idea sound fine from the first time i've heard/thought about it.
 

Magnum

Rear Admiral
Do keep in mind that during WWII, plenty of enemy planes were captured by both sides. Just today I saw a photo of a B-17 with Japanese markings. Mustangs with German markings are pretty strange too.

That said, as a private citizen, there's no way Confed is going to give/sell you a captured/salvaged Jalthi. And, from what Howard has said, seeing Jalthi is dangerous enough as it is. Unless Pioneer has mechanics in place to fully disable a ship without destroying it altogether, you can't salvage space dust.
 

Howard Day

Random art guy.
Plasteel Skull said:
How the hull would be useful? To see how many centimeters of plasteel they used this time? Staying with example of messerschmitt - did allies steal those planes to check the technology. Do the terran transports comb space where space battles took place in order to search for scraps od kilrathi hulls?

This isn't an issue - you're not flying in an area controlled by the Confederation - it's controlled by the Landriech. This has never been a problem. The issue is you getting your hands on it in the first place - no mentally stable military force would leave behind any assets that could later be used against them. That's a human philosophy - I can't help but think that the Kilrathi would be far more ruthless in this regard.

Plasteel Skull said:
I must say that facing such opposition from you (for me) I am forced to let go. Still reasonable debate has no chance here, it seems that we are too far from each other in a way we imagine how this game should look like. You believe that you protect the pure and innocent WC universe from being bastardized by some wild ideas, yet are not open-minded enough to see, that you are stripping this game of a good amount of its potential playability - which you have a special word for - fanboyism. Well sorry to reveal the brutal truth - but i play games to have fun immersing myself in WC universe and not to having another lesson of WC trivia.

Please, take a step back and calm down. We're not trying to crush your hopes and your dreams here. I've explained very clearly why I'm unable to justify this addition to the game - and even that it's almost painful for me to turn you down on this. The work you've done is fantastic - easily the best cockpit concept work I've come across. But your overwhelming desire to see this one ship flyable in the game (Only the Jalthi - never heard you mention any of the other fighters) seems to border on obsession. We had a reasonable debate on this - and the fact remains that the only conclusion that we can come to is that while historically governments have captured each others machinery and planes, private citizens most certainly have not. Even that which was captured was rarely anything but reservist, and poor quality. The chances of a civilian getting his hands on a top-of-the-line, heavy Kilrathi fighter in any useable condition is bordering on impossible. I'm not trying to protect the flawless (Hah!) WC universe from anything. I'm trying to protect my game from anything that would make the player loose immersion in the game's universe... Coming upon an abandoned Jalthi ready for you to take falls squarely under this category. It's painful do do this - but it has to be done.
After all - who doesn't like flying kilrathi ships? Hell, that's the only reason I bought Academy. And the only reason I played Armada as long as I did. But the key here is that each of those games had REASONS why you could do it. Academy was a simulation of a brand-new, frontline kilrathi fighter brought over by a kilrathi defector. Armada let you do it because you were able to PLAY the Kilrathi. These make sense, and a absolutely possible. You or me coming across a disabled Mig-29 that you can just take is not a likelyhood that is possible.

Plasteel Skull said:
In a short time i actually enamoured in this project still now i look on it with much more sober eyes. Which does not mean that i'm turning my back on it, just will be more careful posting new ideas and will read all the WC literature before such an act.
No - please continue to post whatever comes to mind - don't be afraid to have ideas shot down. It's far better to get an idea rejected, than to have never proposed it in the first place. I personally would love to see you continue in this game, but you've got to grow a thicker skin. If you can't deal with just one of your ideas getting shot down, then you may not be able to handle the long-run of game development.
 

Magnum

Rear Admiral
Howard Day said:
This isn't an issue - you're not flying in an area controlled by the Confederation - it's controlled by the Landriech.
Another excellent point that I forgot about in my previous post. Do you think the Landriech militia will let you have a Jalthi if they could use it themselves?
 

Cargoman

Spaceman
Plasteel , I am in no way a continuity cop .

I'm to ignorant of the WCU to be, the only game I've played is Privateer ,
and read one book (Freedom Flight , maybe I can't remember title , which
ever one is first with the jerk Aussie pilot ) . I never used the term Fanboyism ,
I'd never heard it until this thread . I really don't want to be a wet blanket .
I just can't buy the line you're selling . You appear to be far more talented
in both tale weaving and more artistic than I . However this old soldier and
history major can tell you there aint no way a 109e in any condition would
be in civilian hands in 1944 . 1952 ? Maybe , 1970 sure luxury taxed in the
extreme but o.k.

The hull would in the proper hands tell not only the amount
of firepower needed to penetrate critical areas , but also flight capabilities
as well as the technological level of these little known enemy.

If a player flyable Kilrathi ship is your goal , I'll go one better than t.c.ggi .
Develop a mission were the player steals one to turn over to Confed. forces .
High risk , high pay , you get to fly , probable fight in the ship , you just can't
keep it .
That though highly improbable that Confed would use a civilian rather than S.O.
is far more possible.
 

Howard Day

Random art guy.
Hey, there's a thought. That's a perfectly reasonable way to fly a Jalthi. Put a story behind it - a purpose. It's still a bit of a lot of work for just one mission - but maybe we could make it a longer mission-arc.
 

Plasteel Skull

Commodore
Howard Day said:
Please, take a step back and calm down. We're not trying to crush your hopes and your dreams here. I've explained very clearly why I'm unable to justify this addition to the game - and even that it's almost painful for me to turn you down on this.

:) Yeah, I know. Just needed to vent my frustration, its over now. Damn, what else can I do? When Pioneer is so cool even without a Jalthi. And yep, I was obsessed, but one-two exorcisms well done and I'm ok, now let's talk about that Dralthi you promissed to implement... just kidding:)

Well, because it seems (without a sarcasm now) that I don't know that era of WC so well, could you tell me - was in these times among civilian allowed ships some heavy fighter available - with at least 4 front cannons and 1 rear turret? My preffered style of gameplay is a pirate occasional smuggler - to tis job in original priv the centurion was perfect - I'm looking for such a craft among those available in Pioneer and there is no heavy fighter (i guess that Phalanx could be described as medium). So I dont know how well are 5 already confirmed ships put together and whether there is a place for just one more.


Howard Day said:
No - please continue to post whatever comes to mind - don't be afraid to have ideas shot down. It's far better to get an idea rejected, than to have never proposed it in the first place. I personally would love to see you continue in this game, but you've got to grow a thicker skin. If you can't deal with just one of your ideas getting shot down, then you may not be able to handle the long-run of game development.
As I've written in a mail to you, which probably got lost on the web all those debates did not change my resolution to help you with cockpits as long as you will want me to help. Probably if not for Pioneer i would draw them for myself...
 

Eder

Mr. Standoff
Cargoman said:
Plasteel , I am in no way a continuity cop.
Not that there's anything wrong with that, though. As Howard already pointed out, some things which may seem like harmless "having fun immersing yourself in the WC universe" to some fans are big let-downs for others.

I'll take "stripping a game of a good amount of its potential playability" than stripping it of a large portion of it's target audience any time. A good game isn't the same as a game that has as many features as possible.

A fun game that feels like true WC in every aspect is many times more likely to please WC fans than an extremely fun WC-based game that make no sense, but is full of "cool stuff" (and when a project begins to go down that road, it doesn't seem to stop until it has managed to turn itself into something that shows no respect for half of all the canon WC material fans have learned to love, and therefore doesn't interest half the fans anymore).

Edit: don't take this as negativism on my part either, as the fans' input is a valuable resource to every game being developed... I'm merely trying to point out that from the developer's side of things, these kind of ideas are risky at best... and that the developer always needs to put more thinking into it than just "is it possible?" and "will someone like it?"
 

Plasteel Skull

Commodore
Howard Day said:
Hey, there's a thought. That's a perfectly reasonable way to fly a Jalthi. Put a story behind it - a purpose. It's still a bit of a lot of work for just one mission - but maybe we could make it a longer mission-arc.
I go for that compromise. However Howard is right - it must be something more than just 1 mission - because it would be such a waste of work and time... Now i go sleep - not sleeping for 2 days is too much - and I need fresh head for that phalanx. Cargoman, Howard, thx for well meant words.
 

Howard Day

Random art guy.
Eder: I don't like that path. Somehow at the end of it I see myself wanting to be a woman. :(
As for the whole Jalthi thing.......it could be done. If it was the right sort of mission - one that made sense, it could be done. It could be done really, really well. You wouldn't get to keep the Jalthi, though. What's more, though - it's a very low priority right now. We've got sooo much work to do, it's not at all funny. I'm jazzed - but we've got too much to do to worry about minor mission arcs right now. The rest of the universe needs to be populated, and we've gotta get it done.
I'm looking forward to the Phalanx concepts coming!
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
Plasteel Skull said:
1. In all WC games, where there were kilrathi ships there always were words kph, set, and normally written english text - then again, these games didn't intend to reach such level of realism as Pioneer aspires to.

I don't think you're giving the Wing Commander games enough credit here. Don't forget that the KPS indicator was physically bolted onto the dashboard in the first Kilrathi ship we ever flew. Confed engineers labeled all the indicators and controls by hand for the human pilot to understand.

sm2screenshot06.gif


Academy's Kilrathi ship is simulated, so it's no surprise the readouts are in English there. In Armada you play a Kilrathi, so whether it be English or another language, it's perfectly normal for the pilot to be able to read the writing in their native ships. It's actually very impressive how WC games don't just carelessly toss you into Kilrathi ships without accounting for the reasons why you might be flying them.
 
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t.c.cgi

Vice Admiral
Unfortunately an arc to fly the Jalthi but not keep it goes against the Privateer feel. Take a look at the relationship you had with Confed. You worked with the fleet the first time around to get that drone off your tail. Second time to get your trophy back.

There has to be something worth blood, sweat, and money. And obviously it's not going to be the Jalthi.
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
t.c.cgi said:
Unfortunately an arc to fly the Jalthi but not keep it goes against the Privateer feel. Take a look at the relationship you had with Confed. You worked with the fleet the first time around to get that drone off your tail. Second time to get your trophy back.

There has to be something worth blood, sweat, and money. And obviously it's not going to be the Jalthi.

So.. all that seems to be missing is something to get in return to make it worthwhile. Tha seems like one of the easier things to integrate once you actually design the ship and create a mission for it that doesn't hurt the context.
 

Ijuin

Admiral
I like the idea where you get hired to do a sequence of missions in a Jalthi (probably infiltrating Kilrathi space, etc.), but don't get to own the Jalthi at the end. For a reward, how about one player-owned ship of the player's choice gets upgraded so that it can accept one level higher armor/shield/reactor upgrades (which the player must still purchase normally)?
 

Eder

Mr. Standoff
A pair of Particle cannons sounds nice - like a reference to those P2 guns which you could only get by meeting some weird character somewhere.
 

Plasteel Skull

Commodore
Eder said:
A pair of Particle cannons sounds nice - like a reference to those P2 guns which you could only get by meeting some weird character somewhere.
If those guns are otherwise unavailable on a free market it's awesome prize.

Just realised it lately but it seems that the design of all human fighter space ships is very similar. Wings (different shapes), today-times fuselage and cocpit placed on a ships axis at the front of a craft mostly. And I ask the guys here (who often know every single ship from WC universe - even those not shown in any game) - isn't there some terran fighter at least in a small measure extravagant in its design? Maybe a cockpit isn't in actual central part of a ship, but on one side, maybe (especially, when there always must be two pilots in Pioneer player ships) it can have two different cockpits, maybe it can resemble some Kilrathi design in a way or have a new design altogether. This was the main reason for me wanting to fly Jalthi - it's IMO perfect design. The perfect design is innate for almost any kilrathi ship.
 
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