General ideas

Bandit LOAF said:
Pioneer could (or could not, who am I?) try another approach if it were interested and play with 'low visibility' cloaks -- paying to have your fighter painted black, having sensor packages and ECM weapons you can buy to disrupt enemy sensors... but even there I think you'll run into the same problems as the official games did: the player ultimately has very little interest in what AI drones can and cannot see.

We're not interested in any sort of cloaking technology. It's counter-intuitive to have something of that nature on civilian ships of this era. Would it probably be a cool visual effect? Sure. We're just not in the habit of selling out our gameplay soul for a pretty gizmo. In the end, it really doesn't matter how pretty this game is. If it's not fun, then it will be forgotten faster than Tombraider 6. And that's quick.
 
Howard Day said:
4: No auto targetting. This is considered cheating. ITTS will be a rarity.

I think that it should be like in Privateer where only the best of each brand of radar scanners (Iris Mk. 3, Hunter AW Infinity, B&S Omni) had ITTS.
 
Funny, I've given up an idea of cloaking device some 15 posts ago :) And I guess I was the only one, who formulated heresy of wanting it in Pioneer :) All can sleep well again ;)
 
So here's Jalthi heavy. I haven't slept all night drawing it, but it was fun :).
http://www.image2share.com/image/i0602/pioneer_jalthi_cockpit_6rfm.jpg.html
Strongly recommend downloading it from image2share – no details are visible while watching on a webpage.

Just to be sure, everything is clear – numbers:
1.Autopilot and Jump availability indicator
2.Fuel indicator
3.Enemy missile lock and „danger, eject!“ indicators
4.
5.Gun power indicators – 3 on each side, each indicator for particular gun.
6.Radar display (could be smaller, I know – but that's a glass's size fault :p), set and actual velocity.
7.Shielding and hull integruty indicatos – could be in final render considered as a stripe (longer or shorter depending on shield strength) or same as hull indicatos – green for unscrathed and red for weak. Also shield level display (round element on right side of the module)
8.Last but not least – MFD

Now answering first Howard question: „Where the heck is second pilots seat?“. It's placed behind first pilot – some 0.5 m above his level (just like in Apache chopper) – the Phalanx will have the same solution as you suggested. He's got the same set of displays and keyboards – only for a first pilot this are obviously visible from behind (make it mounted on metal girders, packs of wires plugged in, wire tubes connected and so on...).

It's Jalthi heavy fighter in hand of a terran – such a blasphemy, however I alredy came with several logical and acceptable ways such ship could be in hands of very rich and influential privateer. My additional idea is, that Jalthi – if implemented - (not by default) should have the option of mounting a rear turret – terran model – of course. Also to be fliable – whatever was a case that it is now in hands of terran pilot – it should be stripped from its original Kilrathi hardware and refurbished with terran equipment – this way we are avoiding kilrathi folklore hurled on a pilot from all displays.
 
I have already some small objections to my own Jalthi cockpit design – the engine gondolas on the sides from cockpit are much larger than those on my picture – I can redraw it so it would resemble the ship model. Still, this will cause, that the sight to sides will be almost completely covered and Jalthi pilots should be „blind“ to side attacks like those Dralthi pilots in WC1.

Will post changed picture with ready Phalanx cockpit concept picture, which is next actually.
 
Funny, I've given up an idea of cloaking device some 15 posts ago And I guess I was the only one, who formulated heresy of wanting it in Pioneer All can sleep well again

I was explaining the continuity, as I just noticed Dyret had invoked my name about it earlier in the thread.

If it's not fun, then it will be forgotten faster than Tombraider 6. And that's quick.

Is that Angel of Darkness? Because I was playing that yesterday.
 
Howard Day said:
Wow. Okay - this is pretty impressive. First of all, take a look at the Pioneer Jalthi model here:
http://www.hedfiles.net/wcpioneer/JALTHI1.jpg
http://www.hedfiles.net/wcpioneer/JALTHI2.jpg

Hehe, something I just noticed - are those Japanese markings on the Jalthi? :)

Also, Plasteel Skull, your drawings are incredible.

EDIT: since this *is* the general ideas thread, I thought I'd toss in a few that I thought of a while back. Mostly personalization stuff

* Nameable ships
* Kill markings
* Personal avatar/nose art, a la Homeworld 2.
 
Bob McDob said:
Also, Plasteel Skull, your drawings are incredible.

Thanks ;) Yet it's nothing in comparison with those ubelievable renderings of Tarsus, Humpback and Camel cockpits made by Howard. This strongly motivates me to eventually learn do 3d graphics myself :)
 
Bob McDob said:
Also, Plasteel Skull, your drawings are incredible.

Got to echo Bob's assessment...those are some incredible drawings. Howard, have a question for you though, I thought there wsa only going to be 4 or 5 player ships. Why are you looking at adding cockpits for a Jalthi? Wouldn't that defeat what you were trying to do there with the balance of Privateer?
 
Those ARE some killer drawings. Great stuff!

Although I don't see why any human should be flying in a Kilrathi heavy fighter. It would be confiscated by military once you landed, and you'd be a flying target for friendlies everywhere...

And I don't see why Kilrathi would be reading in English when they have their own written language. ;)

But cool stuff.

Bob: Those are some great ideas. I also think the ability to skin your own fighters would be good if you so chose, although that would have no effect on the performance of your craft. I thought something like this was already being considered though.
 
Well, that's pretty impressive. As I mentioned before, this is a pretty low-grade task for us - the chances that it will actually be used are fairly low. However, this is an excellent sketch, and will definately be used if we do go that route. We'll have to think about it some more before we come to a final decision.
Still want to see your Hydra and Phalanx cockpits, though. :)
I've gotta run, so I'll touch on all the other ideas preesented in the thread a bit later.
 
Cam said:
Those ARE some killer drawings. Great stuff!

I'm really glad, that you like it. On saturday or sunday i will post my drawn proposition of Phalanx cockpit. We'll se then, what you will say. My general idea (not having anything ready yet) is to make it resembling a compact and enclosed cockpit close to Centurion and/or Modern fighters from our times. But I want it to have some soul too :) If you have any cool ideas - go ahead, please, and post them.


Cam said:
Although I don't see why any human should be flying in a Kilrathi heavy fighter. It would be confiscated by military once you landed, and you'd be a flying target for friendlies everywhere...

For now I will not post my arguments "for", because I'm waiting what will Howard have to say.

Cam said:
And I don't see why Kilrathi would be reading in English when they have their own written language. ;)

1. In all WC games, where there were kilrathi ships there always were words kph, set, and normally written english text - then again, these games didn't intend to reach such level of realism as Pioneer aspires to.
2. Those latin (terran) letters and words are placed there just to clear what is what - in original not stripped Jalthi all is in kilratish of koz.
3. but a problem with kilrati ship talking to its pilot in kilratish was discussed earlier - I consider(ed) it to be fun to learn how to say and spell "Your Mom (1)" in kilratish ;)

Bob, Cam: As I remember Howard said somewhere here, that you will be able to name your ship; there probably won't be any character personalization (like on EVE for example) and kill markings on a ship is posted for a first time - good idea and I like it - especially in a game and universe, where "every kill is a great victory" - thus you won't have whole ship in kill scratches.
 
Bob McDob said:
* Nameable ships
* Kill markings
* Personal avatar/nose art, a la Homeworld 2.
Japanese Markings? I...I don't know. I just snagged a font that looked alien. If anyone out there has a good Kilrathi language font, I'll go and replace those...

I don't know about the nameable ships - the mechanics for that are something I'd like to do, but I'm not sure how it would work.

Kill Markings - A distinct possibility. They're be pretty small and hard to see, though.

Nose Art: Already planned. We'll probably have a large library of them to start out with - and we may allow you to inport your own. (Similar to the Halo2 logo selection screen)

Plasteel Skull said:
I'm really glad, that you like it. On saturday or sunday i will post my drawn proposition of Phalanx cockpit. We'll se then, what you will say. My general idea (not having anything ready yet) is to make it resembling a compact and enclosed cockpit close to Centurion and/or Modern fighters from our times. But I want it to have some soul too If you have any cool ideas - go ahead, please, and post them.
I like it a bunch. The only problem is now I'm trying to justify a reason of having this ship available to the player at some point. Ridiculously hard to get, sure......but I'm having a hard time doing it. We'll have to talk amongst ourselves on this one.

As for suggeestions on the other cockpits - I have a couple.

Hydra:
The general layout should be:

Center chair for the player, with two chairs behind to the right/left for the co-pilot and mechanic. The player has two MFDs.

Phalanx:
What you had there sounds good - the Phalanx also has two MFDs. Raw is good.


Plasteel Skull said:
For now I will not post my arguments "for", because I'm waiting what will Howard have to say.
Hold off on that one - we'll figure this out.

Plasteel Skull said:
1. In all WC games, where there were kilrathi ships there always were words kph, set, and normally written english text - then again, these games didn't intend to reach such level of realism as Pioneer aspires to.
2. Those latin (terran) letters and words are placed there just to clear what is what - in original not stripped Jalthi all is in kilratish of koz.
3. but a problem with kilrati ship talking to its pilot in kilratish was discussed earlier - I consider(ed) it to be fun to learn how to say and spell "Your Mom (1)" in kilratish
Well, it'd dfinately all be in kilrathi. I always thought the little peices of masking tape on the controls of the WC1 Dralthi were awesome - having to figure out all this other technology would be fun. IF WE DO IT.
 
Nose art , cool !
Nameable ships would be very nice !
Player flyable jalthi , naw .
I just don't see a conviencing argument for it staying in a players hands.
Kilrathi , pirates , crimelords , government would all be going all out to get
it or destroy it . But you two seem really jazzed on the idea .
Oh ,before I forget Plasteel , beautiful work !!!!! I just don't like the concept .
''You can please some of the people ........."
 
Cargoman said:
Player flyable jalthi , naw .
I just don't see a conviencing argument for it staying in a players hands.
Kilrathi , pirates , crimelords , government would all be going all out to get
it or destroy it . But you two seem really jazzed on the idea.

This post is dedicated to all NO people among us :) Please, clear your mind from all prejudices towards kilrathi ships in terran civilian hands, not being it written in any official WC handbook and so on... and just read lower lines.

Ok, in this post I’d like to explain my point of view. It will be a long post, so if you don’t have patience or mood, ignore it J

Some people here think, that when I’d like to see Jalthi one of player ships that means maybe that I would like to see it being on a rack next to Camel or Phalanx. Wrong. I understand, that having such a ship is in normal circumstances illegal and would cause a lot of trouble to its owner. Yet I guess that I came to an idea of a fine “quest” for this ship – which in my opinion suits well to become a “reward ship”. First it should be implemented in storyline, that nothing from later events happens before the storyline of game itself is not advanced enough – this is for two reasons – 1. to not give a player a possibility to overpower him, 2. simply because otherwise a player will not have enough power at his disposal (equipment and money for paying to some quest NPCs) . This idea is just my idea how I would do it, if I were a game developer and would like to introduce Jalthi into WCP. Ok, imagine you are flying same of those uncharted kilrathi systems, just passing through. Every time when entering such a system a game will “roll dice” on a chance of 3-5% that you would be a witness of a following incident: two Jalthis are dogfighting with a squadron of four rapiers. Let’s not get too deep into polemics that those 4 would kick Kilrathi asses and so on, the important thing is, that it would be shown to a player by cinematics, and it’d be clear to see, that when a player will arrive to a place of fight, it will already be over. The result of a battle is , that all the crafts are destroyed but one heavily damaged Jalthi with leaking gas from its cockpit and discharges of electricity from crisped elecronics. It’s obvious that pilot – although in a space suit will die, even more surely so because he cannot call for help for the damage his ship sustained. And now a first decision is given to a player – salvage a Jalthi or leave it to its fate? Those among you – who absolutely hate seing Jalthi flyable by a player in WCP have a straight and easy task, just say no… But others (I don’t know, whether I am the only one, I hope I’m not) can accept mission – from that point the time would be ticking away and they will have to hurry for a nearest station with a transport big enough docked to hire a guy (hiring a pilot and setting a course into Kilrathi territory shoud cost 4 times more than moving through charted, “civilized” systems. So lets say, that we lead this transport to the place on time – which should be hell of a challenge because of thickened kilrathi patrols searching for missing buddies. Ok, you come to place on time – some engine cutscene with Jalthi “wreck” loaded to transport takes place. Not on time? Well sorry, but kilrathi found their comrade first. Ok – now the same hell is to get from the system, than get into it – a lot of skill as a pilot needed, a excellent ship with brilliant equipment and maybe (it, this will be possible a bunch of hired extra wingmen). It must be said, that if a transport is destroyed the Jalthi should obviously by gone and there should be no more chance for this quest again. So it would be a nerve thrilling mission.

Good, flying to a nearest base – pirate, neutral or some government administered. Thinking you are safe and your prize in your pocket – tough luck – you are wrong! As soon as landing is finished ship is either taken by a band of armed thugs (pirate base), or militia or even military themselves – sorry but news are spreading faster than light. Ship is taken from you as a piece of possibly valuable piece of enemy technology. When everything seems lost (after some time) our character should be contacted by a mysterious “friend” who has “some connections” at military base and would be able to give your ship back for a certain financial injection. He would tell our character, that he is almost sure, that our hero risked a lot to get that ship and so it might be a case, that he is willing to pay a little bit more to get it back and registered on his name as an kilrathi ship replica (something like today somebody flying a messerschmitt). What our “friend” wouldn’t tell us is that all computer and electronics onboard are crisped and useless – so for navy it is just a piece of junk and not one of the coolest fighters flying around in these times J. And now comes another decision – buy it or not – another chance for those who cannot imagine flying a kilrathi ship and having a clear conscience :D. You buy a ship – and strangely enough, it wasn’t a con .

All happy, having a Jalthi your mechanic looks over on your new acquisition. Our character learns, that not only at least 90% systems were burnt but the remaining 10% was stripped away. So what is left from a powerful kilrathi military fighter is its hull, avionics, engines generator and ship interior – the rest (computers and so on must be bought). But the only place one can buy anything with at least a slight chance to fit into a military craft (although belonging to an enemy) is military – which doesn’t like to share with its sparce wartime resources. But where is money there is someone who will gladly cash those. And from our mechanic (or any necessary NPC we will get a contact for a crooked military officer). The said officer will take from our hero not only money, but also favours in a form of completing missions – one mission for each needed part – and money in addition. (it might be 5 parts it might be 10 – it depends solely on sadism of quest designers – me personally incline to 5 missions/parts). After completion of missions we will get all parts (which are not normal ship parts sod on a market – but integral pieces of a ship – this is why a Jalthi will not show info in kilrathish). A player will be able finally step in into his new fighter – equip it with terran equipment (as a heavy fighter I would allow it to bear one turret on back, 6 gun mounts in front, X – missile and mine mounts). Player will have maybe a day or even more of a fine gameplay, his funds strongly reduced, but at least in my case – happy! J

Thanks for enduring it to the end…
 
Regardless of the method, I personally think giving the player top of the line Kilrathi hardware is in general a bad idea, and smacks of the fanboyism (specifically, including stuff because it's "cool", not because it makes sense within the reality of the WC universe) reflected in several other WC fan projects (whose names will go unmentioned here, so as to not drag that conflict onto the Pioneer forum, but they've been mentioned elsewhere on the CZ).
 
Death said:
(specifically, including stuff because it's "cool", not because it makes sense within the reality of the WC universe

But what sense you want to find in the fact that you got a new ship. In the same way we could ask devs to allow only Hunchback and prohibit all other ships - what sense in reality of the WC universe it has, buying new ships???

Im really, REALLY curious and anxious to know one answer from all those, who are against (all who answered until now) - its not Online game - so if in MY game i will TAKE the quest (presuming that it will be implemented) and finaly GET Jalthi and be flying around in that what it is to you? We will never meet, I will never be able to use it against you, right? Maybe I'm wrong, but why -- for realism and common sense sake -- do not accept this quest and move by? That is something i can't understand.
 
Death: I agree. The problem we have here is that the cockpit concept we have here is soo very damn good that it's almost painful to say no. I have to physically restrain myself from loading up 3DSMAX and starting right NOW. But...No. I'm afraid that's going to be the answer. It's just too iffy - I can't convincingly justify it to myself, much less anyone else.
Plasteel Skull - Please take no offense. Your art and arguments are very good - but as I've mentioned earlier: We're not going to sell (not Sell as in $ - as in make it convincing as a game experience in the WC Universe) this game just on "Cool" It has to make sense. It has to jive with the rest of the universe.I has to make sense in the perspective of things that have already happened. This idea just...doesn't. There are rationales, but they seem to ring hollow.
I hope this doesn't cause you to loose interest in the project - I feel very much that you could be a valuable asset to this project, and I'd hate to loose your asistance over one rejected idea. Everyone working on this project has had ideas shot down - it's a by-product of the process of game development.
 
Sorry , the hull would also be very useful to Confed military R&D .
Therefore not allowed out of thier control without many courtmartials
and heads rolling . I just dont buy it , not beliveable .
The Messerschmitt ploy would only work if it were 2730 and
the jalthi were no longer a line unit of your enemy !
Again I'm just one loud NAY!! No more or less .
Nice tale by the way , wish I could belive it , I just can't .
 
Okay, here's an idea. Devil's advocate, if you want.

The Kilrathi have abandoned something. I don't know what. It's just abandoned. Or derelict. Maybe a junkyard where they dump all the fighters tagged 'write off'.

And here the player can decide if his career sucks enough to want to joyride in a busted Jalthi and see how long he can last in "Me vs Everyone" mode.

The problem is the controls, as I see it. Everything will be in Kilrathi, and the people who speak it are either in Confed intel, or already in cahoots with them (the Mandarins... who didn't get Jalthi's, IIRC). Only way I can 'think' to model this is have the keys totally randomized, except for throttle and joystick (those will probably be most obvious to make out). And randomized differently for each character. Perhaps even randomize the location of the 'intact enough to fly' Jalthi for each character too, so that way people can't just home into it with guides and junk.

So... IF the player can make it past the Kilrathi lines to their scrapyard, he can hop into a Jalthi that's probably seen Blair in an unhealthy way, with messed up controls. And, the player will have to figure things out fast, as I doubt the Kilrathi would idle around while you got a feel for their ship. Oh, and like I said before, doing so will lock out landing anywhere, and set everyone to enemy.

I suppose if the player has to be allowed to land anywhere, it should be some place that is likewise difficult to get at (secret Retro base?), and the player cannot land if any cheats were used along the way (and just to be fair, the Jalthi can't be found if they were used to get to the yard). If you want to keep it, you should have to have a trial by [friendly] fire. And finally, when/if the player lands, all the components should be locked. If you can't read Kilrathi, I can't see how the hell you'd understand their engineering enough to custom load the ship.

Basically, I'm suggesting you turn the fanboy Jalthi plug into an impossible to complete easter egg on every level. Well, maybe not impossible, but just stupidly insane to undertake.
 
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