Game Ports/Where did WCM go wrong?

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Marcml30

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I've been following the recent releases of Tomb Raider and Final Fantasy with interest. Specifically, how well the producers/writers would pull it off and comparing the success of the translation of game to movie of TR & FF with that of WCM. While the story line on all three seems to have been panned by the critics (who are not always right) TR & FF seem to be making decent returns at the box office. And I'm pretty sure that this success is not due only to fan patronage.

Though I haven't seen FF (my kids loved it though) I've read that its story is somewhat uninspired(?). I did however see TR and was very disappointed (I'm sorry, was the Writers Guild already on strike when they wrote the script?). TR blew a great opportunity and I personally feel that its success is ONLY due to Angelina Jolie's presence. It did have a few good action scenes but, as one critic put it, I spent the better part of the movie waiting for the next action sequence.

When I think of WCM, I wonder if its failure came from not fitting into the right market - TR seems to appeal to kids and adults alike (for different reasons ie Jolie) while FF seems geared mainly towards kids. When I think back on WCM, it seemed too 'teen' orientated to me - possibly due to Freddie P's presence.

Alternatively, could marketing have been another issue? Every movie I've seen in the last few months has had the FF trailer in it - I don't recall as big a marketing campaign for WCM.

I'm just surprised that TR/FF are doing so well (I had originally thought that FF would flop big time) and WCM did so poorly. Though I did not care for WCM, I don't think that TR was much better (if any) and it seems that same could be said for FF. Where did WCM go wrong?
 
I think what it is is that FF was such a major new tech and had purely awe inspiring graphics that people wanted to see it for that and TR was seen for previously stated reasons (there 2 of em, a right one and a left) .

I think these are the reasons cuz they are why I went to see these movies
 
The Wing Commander movie came out right before Star Wars Episode I, a movie people had been anticipating for two decades. Of course the wing commander movie had problems in the box office.
 
Originally posted by Terrorizer
The Wing Commander movie came out right before Star Wars Episode I, a movie people had been anticipating for two decades. Of course the wing commander movie had problems in the box office.
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I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning. Unless people felt that WCM was a cheap SW ripoff I think they would have wanted to see it just to hold them over until SWEP1 was released. I have never NOT seen a movie because a movie I was waiting for was about to come out. I HAVE avoided movies that look like cheap ripoffs of another title (eg that dinosaur movie that came out after Jurassic Park). BTW - if my facts are right WCM was released 3/12/99 while SWEP1 was released 5/19/99. I could definitely see SW blowing out WCM if they were released at the same time.

Here's another observation:
If you look at the user reviews for WCM, TR, & FF in the Yahoo movie database you'll find people that loved, hated, or were somewhere in between in their view of the movies. This is unremarkable. However, note that FF has 1257 user reviews and TR has 1363 user reviews but WCM only had 30.
 
You're opening up a big ol' can of worms here, but I'll throw in my $0.02.

**DISCLAIMER I SHOULDN'T NEED TO PUT UP BUT SEEM TO ANYWAY**

Please note the following is all my opinion only.

**END DISCLAIMER I SHOULDN'T NEED TO PUT UP BUT SEEM TO ANYWAY**

I think WCM basically wasn't "Wing Commander enough" for the WC fans, and really wasn't strong enough to stand on its own without them. I remember the first time I saw pics from it, my immediate reaction was one of concern. Seeing the movies for WC3 the first time had got my blood racing with happy anticipation ... seeing the trailer for the WC movie just made me think, "Chris, what are you doing? You're going to kill WC!"

But I tried to shove that aside and watch the movie anyway, since I had the same reaction to the idea of Michael Keaton as Batman, but ended up liking _that_ movie. Well, not wanting to bash the movie in a room full of people who liked it, let's just say it lived down to my initial expectations.

(Actually, that was another reason I didn't enjoy Starlancer ... it felt like playing a game based on the WC movie.)

If the WC movie had come out without the games, I suspect I would have watched it once, enjoyed it mildly, and forgotten it shortly after. But, since it came out after the games, and with _that_ act to follow, it was very disappointing ... and I think a lot of "casual" WC fans probably had a similar reaction.

-The Gneech
 
At the time, I did think it was a Star Wars rip-off. I thought it was "merely-worth-watching" or a '4' on a scale from 1-10.
I soon forgot it and awaited Episode I. I think that if Freddy Prince Jr. hadn't been in it, and it had had a better script, it could have made a bigger impact. I have talked to people who went to see it only because of the Ep.1 trailer. Now that I bought it and have watched it again, I gave it a '6'.
 
I was a 'casual' WC fan at the time the movie came out, and I remember clearly when I saw previews for it, first I was like "WOW! They're making a Wing Commander movie!!!" Then, immediatly after, I was all like "What's all that crap? Doesn't look like WC to me?" I thought the previews looked pretty dumb, but since I had played WC and was intrested in it, I went and saw it. I was dissapointed. Initially, it was almost purely becuase they changed like, everything. But after I got over that, I just thought to myself "That was not a good movie at all".

Since then i've seen it a few times, and I do think certain elemts of the movie were cool, I don't think it was even remotely good overall. I especially didn't like the Pilgrim thing, as the first time I saw that I imagined Hamill playing Blair and "using the force". I was waiting for Paladin's voice to start going through Blair's mind at the end.

That was my first reaction anyway. I still don't like the Pilgrim thing at all. That may be why I didn't like the movie. It just seemed like with everything that could have been in it, why take some lame ripoff of the force and go with that?
 
There are many factors I think.Marketing,and budget being big reasons,but I think it boils down to one thing,the movie just was not very good.We, as Wing fans, are quick to defend the movie,and I did like many things about the movie, even the pilgrims.From a non biased standpoint however,the movie was not all that good.It did not get,virtualy,one good review(The critics are just critics however),but when a movie earns only $12mil(U.S.)and bad reviews, something is wrong. I just did not think the film came anywhere near the potential of its source material.The movie could have been the greatest thing to happen to the Wing universe.I don't think that there are very many other games that could have translated into a better film.If any game were to prove that games could be translated into a great film, it was Wing Commander.Alas,however, the film just couldn't do that.The budget did play a significant role however.While the creators did do an impressive job on the visual effects and movie in general,there is still only so much that you can do with $27mil.Plus ,the little marketing which it got certainly did not help matters.The script however was atrocious.It never seemed to flow smoothly,and not to mention a weak anticlimatic ending.You never seemed to have been grounded in the events which were going on.And many events were rushed(such as the boarding scenes).I know that some stuff was cut,however it never realy pulls you in to the characters plights.They should not have gotten Kevin Droney to write the script.I actualy did like a lot of things in it.For the budget that they had,I think that he(Roberts) did a fine job.I just wish that it had a little more imagination,intrigue,and all the other things that we have come to like about the games.Still, as a property, Wing is infinitely superior to drivel like Tomb Raider(which had a large marketing and hype campaign).In light of this, seeing as Chris Roberts still has great interest in it,I hope that Chris new film company and films are succesful,so that he can become a aforce to be reckoned with,and one day return, reinvent, and do justice to the series that launched his career
 
The problem was Chris Roberts isn't a good movie director, he'd hate to admit it but he should be working with games and I have no idea why he doesn't want to accept that.

The problems with the WC movie were two fold, firstly with the fans:

It in NO way represented Wing Commander, it was just a bunch of Wing Commander names strung together, Blair, Kilrathi, Tiger(s) Claw, Raper but the timeline was completley off, even the characters were all wrong.
Wing Commander was turned into a WW2 film to suit Chris Roberts, not because he thought the fans would enjoy it more or because it would bring bigger outside audiences, not on your life! It was because Chris Roberts felt like doing it, and thus changed what could have been a great new chapter in the WC universe to something the fans refuse to connect to the games.
I think the multi national approach was also a mistake, now I'm british, I'm used to hearing all sorts of accents but the number of times I've heard an american complain he can't understand what the british accent its ridiculous

Having said all that I really did like the WC movie, I just try not to associate it with the games too much, think of it as a movie on its own merits, in order to do that though I have to remember what the plot was meant to be before it was cut.
 
If they had changed the names and made it flow more easily it would have worked easily maybe set it in the time for WC2 to explain the shift and not use Starlancer models but original models of old ships and no one would have complaned but the critics. My 2 cents.
 
DISCLAMER: It's tuesday morning and I have eight hours of boredom ahead of me -- you've been warned.

As for the fans... honestly, people, get over yourselves. There are maybe a hundred people who went to the movie and hated it because Maniac had the wrong color hair. Believe it or not, it's *not* an evil conspiracy against the true fans for whom the movie should have been made. You people made up about $500 of the total gross... and I'd gladly pay twice that if you'd all just shut up. When making a movie -- any movie -- you *CAN NOT* gear it towards a few hundred people. (Not that it didn't have some elements for WC fans... like the Dibbles reference and such -- you people are just too damned wrapped up in how important you think you should be to enjoy any of it.)

Stylistically, the movie took some risks -- that, unfortunately, weren't well recieved. The officer uniforms out of Horatio Hornblower, the messy Das Boot sets, the armored Kilrathi... Roberts apparently gambled on a lot of elements that he hoped would mesh together and make a movie that was visually unique enough to draw a crowd. But it didn't... he was on the right track -- a movie like Star Wars had to do the *exact* same thing to stand out (swords?! in *space?!) -- but he just didn't get lucky. A bunch of individually excellent ideas didn't work together.

The movie also suffered heavily in post-production -- they made a conscious descision after it was filmed that it would be tailored to appeal to the pop crowd rather than be a serious sci fi movie. It was *made* as a serious sci fi movie -- stupid conspiracy theories aside (CHRIS ROBERTS SI HIRED MATT LILLARD BECAUSE HE HATES TOM WILSON AND WING COMMANDER!!!!) the movies cast and sets and score and so forth and so on was very uniquely sci fi and was cleary *not* designed to appeal to everyone. But post production changed Roberts' mind about the whole thing. Thus, when a (one!) test audience deemed the traitor plot to be too confusing they stripped out a third of the movie! And then it got stuck with some pretty stupid marketing errors: its release date was announced at the last minute, there was practicaully no promotion... and when there was, it was aimed at the MTV-stupid-teenager crowd who *would not* see the movie (this, of course, also had the effect of completely alienating anyone interested in seeing a sci fi film...).

I'm not saying the removed scenes would make it better -- heck, they might have made it sell *less*... but I think the general community (sci fi fans, not the eleven Wing Commander fans) would respect the movie a whole lot more if it hadn't been so obviously dumbed down.

Before anyone yells at me regarding the whole lack-of-promotion-killed-the-movie thing... remember that most people don't *hate* Wing Commander -- they've *never heard of* it... $12M means that no one saw the darned film -- and that's not because of bad reviews (horribly reviewed movies do far, far better than that on a weekly basis). I've spoken to *Wing Commander fans* who didn't know there was a Wing Commander movie...

Now, to the stupid people (yes, I'm aware that it's 'just your opinion' -- that doesn't stop your opinion from being stupid.):

Changing the names of the ships in the movie would have absolutely no effect on its quality. Changing when it was *set* would have absolutely no effect on its quality.

Models were not 'stolen' from StarLancer. StarLancer wouldn't be released for another year.

Wing Commander has *always* been World War II in space. The original treatment for the *first* game describes it as the pacific theater in space. Action Stations *is* Pearl Harbor... Fleet Action *is* the battle of Midway... (heck, my complaint about Prophecy is that it *isn't* Korea:)). Chris Roberts is *not* sitting on a huge chair somewhere laughing because he 'changed' Wing Commander into World War II in space because he hates you. It's *always* been World War II in space, and he doesn't care what you think.

... plus, it was nowhere near as disappointing as Episode I.

And just for fun, my opinions of the other two video game movies mentioned...

Tomb Raider: The difference between TR and WC is that TR didn't try to do anything unique. It had lots of things blowing up and stuff shooting other stuff and a dog that turned inside out. It was a fun movie, but we'll still be arguing about Wing Commander when everybody's forgotten that Tomb Raider even existedd -- it's that unremarkable.

Final Fantasy: Aside from the fact that, IMO, it had absolutely nothing to do with Final Fantasy, It hought it was a pretty neat movie... it was great to see really good quality CGI attached to a serious story instead of a kids movie. Which is to say, passable story, cool effects. It's a shame Final Fantasy has done so poorly at the box office, because there are far, far better franchises that deserve this sort of treatment. How could would a Bioforge CGI movie of this calibur be?
 
I wonder if there could be a way to get the original version before FOX execs had the film re-edited... you know the version with the plot intrigue with the traitor and with Kilrathis. I guess it wouldn't hurt the film's sales if we get to see the ugly unreal Kilrathis, since the movie doesn't sell much anymore. If not for the general public, at least for us the fans. Hey is there someone with a lot of influence reading ?
 
Before anyone yells at me regarding the whole lack-of-promotion-killed-the-movie thing... remember that most people don't *hate* Wing Commander -- they've *never heard of* it... $12M means that no one saw the darned film -- and that's not because of bad reviews (horribly reviewed movies do far, far better than that on a weekly basis). I've spoken to *Wing Commander fans* who didn't know there was a Wing Commander movie...
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Not just bad promotion, bad marketing in general. heck, I've tried and tried to see the movie on the big screen. I even used to call all the neibourg cities's movie theaters once a week to know if and when they'd show it (and try to imagine my phone bills then...) with no luck. Not only people never heard of it, it didn't even get to the theaters. Even now that I have my VHS and watched it a few dozen times, I still would have loved to see it on the big screen.
 
Hang on a moment LOAF, try and remember by WC fans we mean the hundreds of thousands people who have ever played and enjoyed a Wing Commander game, they know what it was like and that is what they enjoyed. As big as the CIC is try to remember that only hard core Wing Commander fans are still around here, theres are thousands more who'd be excited by the prospect of a new game, but the trailers of the movie they saw probably made them go... thats not Wing Commander.

As for when I was talking about the characters I did NOT mean the actors, the whole Maniac/ Blair relationship got completley screwed up, Blair and Angel got together 10 years early, Paladin was no longer a fighter pilot near to retirement who'd be stationed on the Claw for years. Blair was now something called a Pilgrim, completley unneccessary.
The ships in the WC games, especially 3 onwards looked like sci fi ships, the carriers in the movie looked like submarines and the fighters like junk, not to mention the fact that the fighters were far too small.
I think you'll find that higher detailed sets and ships which atleast resembled the originals would have drawn wing commander and sci fi fans alike more than old subs.

If they wanted to appeal to someone looking for a bit of action perhaps the nephilim war would have been a better time to base the movie, what I certainly do know is that the books have proven that bar a few errors it is possible to write a new Wing Commander story without replacing the timeline that the games have created.

The plot being dumbed down was also a huge mistake, making a low budget movie unintelligent is a death sentance once it reaches the critics, you need a high budget OR a good plot, you can't get away without either.

While Wing Commander may have had WW2 refrences it was never shoved in the players face like it was in the movie. I mean yes tolwyn was basically hitler in WCIV but atleast they didn't give him the funny mustache.
In the movie it seemed Chris Roberts tried to make the fact that he was inlove with WW2 obvious to even most unintelligent movie, even the soundtrack was like the score to one of those old war movies.
 
Part I: The Rant

There are not hundreds of thousands of fans dedicated enough to care what the Rapiers in the movie looked like. There are plenty of people who enjoyed blowing up stuff in the games -- or thought it was cool that a computer game had *real* actors... but there aren't hundreds of thousands of people who care whether the Dralthi were pointed or flat. Fans who care about the story and the technology and what-not are a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny minority. *Tiny*. So tiny as to be utterly insignificant -- and certainly *not* the group you tailor a movie towards. While it may seem *impossible* to an uberfan that the casual player doesn't know (or care) that "the whole Maniac/ Blair relationship got completley screwed up, Blair and Angel got together 10 years early" and so forth and so on, it is *asbsolutely true*.

And you're utterly insane if you don't think Wing Commander is *blatantly* World War II in space. The Tiger's Claw is clearly an aircraft carrier in space... and you fly in space-fighters and fight evil Japanese-based aliens. The series starts with Pearl Harbor (Action Stations -- which goes so far as to DIRECTLY USE HISTORICAL QUOTES) and ends with, quite literally, the dropping of the A-Bomb.

And what the heck are you talking about regarding the score? It was your typical big-sci-fi-movie score... and absolutely nothing like any war movie.

PART II: FUN FACTS

Maniac and Blair's relationship is exactly the same as it is in the rest of Wing Commander -- they're friends who compete. This was established in the WC1/2 guide and is pretty darned obvious to anyone who's ever watched an episode of Wing Commander Academy.

Blair and Angel didn't get together "early".

Paladin had still spent years on the Tiger's Claw -- he mentions that in the movie novel.

Blair is a Pilgrim -- his religion had never previously been stated.
 
While Blair and Maniac were always competitive they were never close friends, it was an odd relationship but an intresting one. Also actually making Maniac everything he believes himself to be, a whizz with the ladies, the best pilot etc kind of takes away from the humour of the character, in the games he was the comic relief.

Also I think you are SEVERELY underestimating the average person who played Wing Commander, and I don't just mean to a little degree. Just about every computer gaming friend I have now plays WC thanks to me, and enjoy it, but they don't come here, they play the games, and they saw the movie too, did NOT get a good reaction.
Anyone who has played just two games to the end is a big enough fan to have to see the movie because its Wing Commander and certainly a big enough fan to spot and be unhappy about the inconsistancies.


While Blairs religion was never stated it is absurd to think that an issue like the pilgrims would just be overlooked for that time, absolutley ridiculous. People wouldn't just not mention the war.

Action stations is NOT one of the games, most of the FANS (yes fans, they do exist, I am a fan for example of Zelda, Resident Evil, Freespace etc and I don't visit the websites, but I can tell one timeline from another) have only played the games, it is that small minority that you were talking about earlier that reads the books. And its a refrence to WW2, not WW2 in space.
Incase you didn't notice there are some huge differences between Pearl Harbour and action stations, the strategy may have been the same but in the real pearl harbour the americans knew who the enemy was they just didn't get involved until their own intrests were at stake, this was the first real battle period.

To me the tigers claw wasn't the obviously an aircraft carrier, I'll probably look at it that way from now on but without being told I wouldn't notice, no one could miss those submarines.

The movie did badly and this has just as much to do with the fans as anyone else.

[Edited by Pedro on 07-24-2001 at 10:18]
 
On some points I agree with Pedro.
I played all the WCs since the first one, and I loved them all, but I never was a "hardcore fan" like some of you are (I don't know 10% of what most of you know about the Wing Commander Universe). When the movie came out, I was the kind of "fan" Pedro is speaking about : I only played the games and I didn't know there were books or WCA. In fact I didn't even know there was a movie until I saw the poster in the streets !!
First, I was very happy to see that one of my favorite game could became a good film. Then I saw the trailer and heard the first comments about it. I was demotivated and I never saw it. :(
Now I would like to see it, mostly because of the discussions I read here which changed my point of view on the whole serie. But when the film was on the screens, I didn't want to watch it, beacause I was very affraid (and pretty sure) to be disapointed : it seemed to have nothing to do with the WC universe I imagined.

So why was the film a failure ?
I build my judgment on what some friends who never played WC but watched the film told me at this time.
For me, the main reason is that it was a sci-fi movie with a too low budget and with maybe a good story, but not good enough to gain the attention of the non-WC fans.

I don't think that Chris Roberts directed his movie to please the fans. And he was right, because even if they're were hundred of tousands, it is still not enough to make a film a commercial success.

So why have Tomb Raider and FF more sucess ?
For the first one, I'd say that's because it's a pure action movie. No need of a good plot. Only good sfx... In fact if it has not been TR, it may have had the same success. But of course as TR is world wild known, it helps for the marketing.
For FF, I think it is because the 3D is beautiful and very realistic. Well I don't really know if it is the reason, but it is why I will see it :)... Even if I have heard the plot is not very good.

Making a sci-fi movie a commercial success is far harder than for an action movie... Nothing to do with the WC Universe...

But I also agree with Loaf. In 1 year TR will be forgotten and we will still argue on WCM...


[Edited by Sadic on 07-24-2001 at 11:35]
 
The reason Tomb Raider is more successful than the WCM is because EVERYONE knows what Tomb Raider. People who have never played Tomb Raider or video games in general know what Tomb Raider is. Lara Croft has been on more magazine covers than Bill Clinton. And it has that kick ass song by U2. Sure in a year no one will be talking about the movie. But the summer after that everyone will be talking about the sequel, cause Angelina Jolie has already signed up for it and it has been successful enough to warrant it.

Final Fantasy is doing better because it has something that everyone wants to see. It is settting a benchmark on just what they can do in a movie with computer animation.
 
Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
There are not hundreds of thousands of fans dedicated enough to care what the Rapiers in the movie looked like. There are plenty of people who enjoyed blowing up stuff in the games -- or thought it was cool that a computer game had *real* actors... but there aren't hundreds of thousands of people who care whether the Dralthi were pointed or flat. Fans who care about the story and the technology and what-not are a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny minority.
Click to expand...

Well, we're not talking about a couple of ships being slightly different ... we're talking about a radically different look, feel, focus, and flavor from stem to stern, and no amount of saying "no it isn't" will change that. :) Even the folks I was referring to earlier as "casual" fans can tell when they're being hit over the head by a ton of bricks, visually speaking.

If the WC core fandom is really that tiny, then why on Earth or in space would anyone think it had a chance as a movie anyway? WC was one of the most successful computer games ever made, in an era when computer games were beginning to rival Hollywood (or at least make Hollywood sit up and take notice) in terms of profit.

And even if you discount the already-existing fans as a core audience, there's also the fact that the "original" look and feel of WC had a proven appeal. As much as it may be heresy to say so, I never thought WC had particularly good writing in terms of dialogue or character ... but it had ships, it had the kilrathi, and it had a history and setting that were so completely cool that I didn't care. The movie tossed out all of those, in favor of something else that, well, wasn't completely cool. So it didn't have strengths that could outweigh its inherent weaknesses.

-The Gneech

[edit - typo]

[Edited by The_Gneech on 07-24-2001 at 12:15]
 
Originally posted by Supdon3
The reason Tomb Raider is more successful than the WCM is because EVERYONE knows what Tomb Raider.
Click to expand...
I'm not arguing the fact that more people have heard of TR than WC but I don't think that is why the movie has done so well. (1) Marketing - it's been billed like a female version of Raiders of the Lost Ark, an action/adventure flick. My daughter, who had never heard of TR, told me she wanted to see the movie the first time she saw the trailer.(2) Angelina Jolie - like or not she is probably responsible for 70% of the male viewers.(3)IMO, action/adventure films have a wider appeal than space/scifi films. Space/scifi films have a limited market appeal. Consider this: what was the last decent space sci/fi flick you saw? The only one that stands out in my mind is Star Wars Episode One.

Originally posted by The_Gneech
If the WC core fandom is really that tiny, then why on Earth or in space would anyone think it had a chance as a movie anyway? WC was one of the most successful computer games ever made, in an era when computer games were beginning to rival Hollywood (or at least make Hollywood sit up and take notice) in terms of profit.
Click to expand...
Do you really think that X-men, Lord of the Rings, Batman, Superman, Spiderman, Starship Troopers, et al were made into movies with the sole purpose of drawing the fandom? I can understand why you would feel disappointed as a fan but in my mind, the movies are just *based* on an existing story. If they made the movie fit perfectly, included McDowell, Wilson, & Hamill, etc etc it probably would not have made much sense to the non-WC viewers. Look at it this way, WC4 sold what, 1 million copies? Translate that into movie dollars - 7M. That's just not enough - they need the non-fans as viewers more than they need the fans.
 
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