Firekkan and other ships

Aginor

Aginor

Vice Admiral
Hi there.

A few minutes ago I randomly stumbled about some Sci-Fi pages with ship designs.
And, of course, since I am a WC fan, I started to think about Ships in WC.

So I thought about the different races in WC and the ships we know, and I wondered what kind of information we have about ships of other races than Kilrathi, Nephilem and Terrans.

Firekkans, for example. Do we know ANYTHING about their ships?
- Do they have own ships in the first place?
- They settle in two Systems, as far as I know, so they must have space ships.
- Did they have space ships before the Kilrathi and the Terrans came to their world? Or did they use Kilrathi and/or human technology?
- Perhaps they don't even have own ships but use human ships (maybe with a different cockpit designed for them)
- But how do they look like?
- Any names, descriptions etc.?

There are some models of Firekkan by JasonRocZ, and though I like the ships I always wondered whether they are typical for the firekkans. I always imagined that if they had their own ships they would look quite different. But take a look:
http://www.crius.net/zone/showthread.php?t=23866


Then there is another race called.... Hu or Wu or something like that, I think it is in Forstchen's Novels...
Any information about them and their ships?

Then I remembered Privateer 2 with its ship designs. Perhaps they aren't all terran, maybe some ships were designed by other races. (which ones, then?)
But I think that is rather unrealistic. Just a thought.
 
I remember that SM2 mentioned that Firekkans are piloting transport ships. I don't think they have very good fighters of their own (otherwise they would have used them... Indeed, do they have any at all), and therefore rely on Confed technology adapted for their use. I have the feeling that if they had ships, they would be very quick and nimble light hitters, since the Firekkans for some dark and mysterious reason have awesome piloting skills and therefore are very good at avoiding hits.
 
I don't think those reasons are very mysterious:
They are bird-descendants!
Every bird has to have excellent eyes and good reactions, a good sense of balance and a very good spatial sense. Along with a good hand-eye-coordination skill that is (almost) everything a good space-pilot in Wing Commander needs.
Always remember: Somebody who flies almost his whole lifetime is born for flying. It is a little bit like asking how a fish-descendant became a good submarine-pilot. :D
 
Firekkans, for example. Do we know ANYTHING about their ships?
- Do they have own ships in the first place?
- They settle in two Systems, as far as I know, so they must have space ships.
- Did they have space ships before the Kilrathi and the Terrans came to their world? Or did they use Kilrathi and/or human technology?
- Perhaps they don't even have own ships but use human ships (maybe with a different cockpit designed for them)
- But how do they look like?
- Any names, descriptions etc.?
Click to expand...

When we first meet the Firekkans, in Secret Missions 2, we're specifically told about the couple of 'crazy' Firekkans who are among the first to leave their planet (if it weren't already obvious, someone at Origin was a fan of Known Space). Both of the ones we learn about (Blair's guide Larrhi and Hunter's friend K'Kai) fly Drayman transports (and Larrhi later goes on to fly fighters for the Confederation). I guess it's also worth noting that Tolwyn mentions having met Firekkans while the Naval Academy in Action Stations... so they'd been integrating into the Confederation for twenty-odd years before the treaty.

That second Firekkan system, T’kirsa, wasn't settled until after the Kilrathi war -- in 2675 (per Star*Soldier). By this point the Firekkans do have their own spacecraft ("Valtar", "Helbraus" and "Yoshira" class fighters are mentioned)... and a crazy huge space station (the 'Bearpit' map in Wing Commander Arena). (This comes, largely, from various Privateer Online proposals which would have had the Firekkans as a playable race with their own 'set' of fighters and transports. You can find details about those concepts in our archive...)

I do think JasonRocZ's ship is a step in the right direction -- specifically because it *isn't* designed to look like a giant bird (in exactly the same way that human fighters aren't designed to look like huge apes...).

Then there is another race called.... Hu or Wu or something like that, I think it is in Forstchen's Novels...
Any information about them and their ships?
Click to expand...

Dr. Forstchen's novels create a dozen or so 'mentioned' races -- Varni, Haggin, Ka, Sorth, etc. These are usually in the context of lists of species enslaved by the Kilrathi... and the Wu, from Action Stations, fall into that category. We know that they're huge elephant-like creatures... and that they did have their own spacecraft at one point (we see a Kilrathi merchantman in that book that's said to be a converted Wu transport).

Then I remembered Privateer 2 with its ship designs. Perhaps they aren't all terran, maybe some ships were designed by other races. (which ones, then?)
But I think that is rather unrealistic. Just a thought.
Click to expand...

Well, the real question about Privateer 2 is whether or not *any* of them ate Terran. :)
 
First: Thanks for the info, Loaf!

Further thoughts by me:
I can't say what bothers me about JasonRocZ's fighters. I think they look too terran for me.
And of course there is no reason that Firekkan ships should look like birds.

Like JasonRocZ I was thinking about a very aerodynamic look, too, because I think that would be important for bird-descendants. The earlier ships might also have looked a little less "high-tech". That may depend on the time in which they were used (JasonRocZ's fighters are highly developed because they are in the time of Arena), Maybe I'll do some sketches about earlier ones. I'm not a great modeler but I think I could do some modeling again.

I will also search more information. Let's see....
 
-Joshua- said:
I remember that SM2 mentioned that Firekkans are piloting transport ships. I don't think they have very good fighters of their own (otherwise they would have used them... Indeed, do they have any at all), and therefore rely on Confed technology adapted for their use. I have the feeling that if they had ships, they would be very quick and nimble light hitters, since the Firekkans for some dark and mysterious reason have awesome piloting skills and therefore are very good at avoiding hits.
Click to expand...

The Firekkans are descended from birds and are still capable of limited flight. As a result, they gain a +3 bonus to defense, and a +3 bonus to initiative. This means that Firekkan ships will tend to move and fire first versus any other race except for the Kilrathi. They tend to favor small and medium ships, as the defensive bonus greatly reduces the damage taken.

On the other hand, the Kilrathi's reflexes and natural aggressiveness make them superb gunners. They gain a +4 bonus to attack and a +4 bonus to initiative. Kilrathi ships equipped with multi-fire weapons are especially nasty.

Oops, wait. Wrong game. Ignore all that. :)
 
I know we're joking around, but I'm obligated to point out that modern Firekkans are still perfectly capable of flight...
 
Bandit LOAF said:
I do think JasonRocZ's ship is a step in the right direction -- specifically because it *isn't* designed to look like a giant bird (in exactly the same way that human fighters aren't designed to look like huge apes...).
Click to expand...

What a race's psychology might imply for ship design is an interesting question. First note that when we (humans) invented aircraft, they DID kind of resemble huge birds, at least in that they had a body, airfoil-shaped wings extending from near the front of the body, and a smaller tail at the back end of the body. The shape of our airplanes had nothing to do with the fact we're descended from apes or birds or whatever else--we chose that shape because (1) early airplane designers were inspired by birds, and a closely related (2) it's a shape that works due to scientific and engineering principals. As we gained more technology (especially better materials and better understanding of fluid mechanics), the shapes evolved, but have pretty much converged. Barring a radical change in available material technology, modern airplanes will be shaped roughly the same (there's a reason why 1980's and 1990's Soviet, French, British, and American jets look so similar...it's a shape that works).

When humans invented space craft in the WC universe, they presumably followed similar reasoning. There's no animals to model after, so you have to take engineering limitations as your design guide. There are certain requirements imposed by physics we know about...pressurized sections have to be rounded, any kind of thruster that spits out things or has a trail of radiation associated with it has to be at the back, any kind of maneuvering thrusters should be as far from the center of gravity as possible within the limits of material strengths in order to get nice long moment arms, but mass should be kept as close to the CG as possible to minimize inertial stresses, weapons on the centerline are easier to aim but harder to cool, etc. The WC-universe physics presumably also have some bearing on ship design...maybe ships can't be larger than a certain size to use jump drives, or their "acceleration absorbers", etc.

But within these engineering constraints, there are other features that influence ship design. First and foremost is available technology...material science and electronics technology may dictate certain design features, such as putting one component close to another. Physiology of the occupant might play in...if a crew needs an atmosphere pressurized to 10 atmospheres instead of 1, then pressurized compartments must be much more massive, and hence close to the CG of the craft, for example.

Given that Firekkans presumably need roughly the same physiological conditions that we do (although they likely can withstand higher acceleration loads), but that their technology is much less advanced than Confed's, I would expect their ships to be closer in design to our current 20th century spacecraft than to the "modern" Confed technology.

From their heritage and psychology, we can speculate on a few other things. First, I would expect their ships to be highly symmetrical, unlike the jarring asymmetry of WC3-era Kilrathi designs. Second, I would expect the cockpits to be set up to offer a great deal of unimpeded vision. As descendents of sharp-eyed hunting birds, I would expect Firekkans to instinctively rely on visual observation far more than even a human, and hence would want as unimpeded a veiw as possible. Third, I would expect them to be as fast as the Firekkans could make them, again since a hunting bird would be accustomed to relying on speed and ability in combat rather than strength.

Sorry for this long and rambling post...I'm at work and keep getting interrupted and losing my train of thought...
 
Farbourne said:
Given that Firekkans presumably need roughly the same physiological conditions that we do (although they likely can withstand higher acceleration loads), but that their technology is much less advanced than Confed's, I would expect their ships to be closer in design to our current 20th century spacecraft than to the "modern" Confed technology.
Click to expand...
I think there's a vast, gaping hole in your train of thought at this point. Unlike human beings, the Firekkans do have something to model their ships after - Confed (and to a lesser degree, Kilrathi) craft. The Firekkans did not have space travel until they encountered humans, and the first ships they used were human ones, with native Firekkan designs only coming decades after the first encounters with humans.

I would imagine the process of development for Firekkan designs probably resembled, to a significant degree, what the Japanese went through in the early 20th century - they sent their engineers abroad to Western universities, they imported British engineers to work in Japan, and in general, their aircraft followed the same lines as Western aircraft did - which might not have been expected, considering how different Japanese art is to Western art.
 
their aircraft followed the same lines as Western aircraft did - which might not have been expected, considering how different Japanese art is to Western art.
Click to expand...

You cannot change the laws of physics. And there are no atmospheric flight models mentioned anywhere in the firekkan history.
 
Mace said:
You cannot change the laws of physics. And there are no atmospheric flight models mentioned anywhere in the firekkan history.
Click to expand...
I don't think you get it. In the same way that the Japanese used existing atmospheric designs as the basis for their own atmospheric designs, we can expect the Firekkans to use existing *space* designs as the basis for their space designs. It doesn't matter what the laws of physics are, and it doesn't matter if they have any atmospheric designs in their history.

Basically, what it comes down to is that if somebody teaches you to make something, your product will wind up resembling your teacher's product, because that's the only way you know how to make it. It takes time and practice to develop your own unique style.
 
Maybe the truth lies somewhere between what both of you said.
The Firekkans have seen terran ships, so there will certainly be quite a number of similarities between them.
But I also think that they are intelligent enough to alter a concept if they don't like it. For example placing cockpits differently because they want to see more.
Then physics: It is somewhat likely that they want their ships to be flyable in atmospheres (so wings could help), and such thing.
Abd design: Maybe they would also change the shape and color of the outer hull of their ships to make them look more "racy" or agressive (according to their style), if it doesn't harm other attributes of the ships. (Or what was the reason why the arrow has a mouth? ;-) ) Or maybe not, because they don't care. We don't know how they think after all...
 
Bandit LOAF said:
I know we're joking around, but I'm obligated to point out that modern Firekkans are still perfectly capable of flight...
Click to expand...

Looks like I missed that line of yours before, Loaf, so a question to clarify:

Was the idea of flight-incapable Firekkans only from the Privateer Online script (I think I remember that line somewhere there) and dropped after that game was cancelled?
And which is the source of the information that they are, in fact, still capable of flight?

I am glad it turned out like that, btw.
Firekkans who don't fly.... I don't like that.
 
I don't think so. The only flying ships in SM2 cutscenes are Kilrathi troopships leaving the planet.
 
Sorry, I didn't mean Firekkan ships but Firekka (as a species) flying in the background. Black bird-like silhouettes... but I'm really not sure. Either in the scene where the treaty is signed or when the Kilrathi are leaving the planet.

Edit: Well, it's not the cutscene in which the Kilrathi are leaving the planet, I checked that on Youtube.

Edit 2: That's the scene I was thinking of: Youtube link . Starts at 6:50.
Though I'd not so sure anymore that these flying creatures show Firekka...but if not, what else?
 
There are silhouettes flying in the background of the treaty signing, but I don't think they're meant to be Firekkans. After all, they're supposed to be in the ceremony on the ground below.
 
Aginor said:
Perhaps Birds?
Click to expand...

Perhaps. Perhaps not. :)

Wedge009 said:
There are silhouettes flying in the background of the treaty signing, but I don't think they're meant to be Firekkans. After all, they're supposed to be in the ceremony on the ground below.
Click to expand...

Certainly, not all Firekkans are supposed to be at ceremony. And certainly there are curious Firekkans who wanted to get a look at all this.

Still, I admit that these silhouettes do not really look like the Firekkans in the foreground. But I think it would have been an odd choice to show "regular" birds in a cutscene in which the giant bird-like sentient species is shown. And we seldom get the local fauna shown.

But who knows?

Incidentally: I think in the last debriefing, Bluehair says "But what about the Firekka, sir?" - seems like Firekka is also plural for the inhabitants of Firekka.
 
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