Fighter inspiration

[Highball]

Something I've been pondering for some time now. We know that Wing Commander was described (by Chris Robers, I think) as "WWII in space." Thus, I have been thinking of what kind of planes would have inspired game designers as they were creating the ships we know and love today. Don't ask me why, the subject of where these fictitious fighter craft may have come from or what real fighters they may have been inspired by intrigues the living daylights out of me. Aircraft in general, really.

Since the Broadsword and Sabre are bombers, it ain't too much of a stretch to see which bombers from WWII were their inspiration. I have always seen a Broadsword as being the most like Boeing's B-17 Flying Fortress or the Consolidated B-32 Dominator; the Sabre gives me more of a mental picture of having been inspired by the North American B-25 Mitchell medium bomber.

Playing through WC2 for some screen caps for the Wing Commander Project lately, and having seen Wedge009's sketch, I could not help but wonder: what the Hell could have been the inspiration behind the much maligned Epee?

Seriously, this has kept me thinking until I fall asleep in bed some nights. It's this tiny fighter, seemingly antiquated by comparison to everything else around it that is available for the player to fly in the game, and it's got this ONE lonely torpedo hanging off of its belly with a couple of pea shooters in front. I'm in the shower this morning before work, and it hits me like a skipper missile I've accidentally flown into the path of.

The Fairey Swordfish Mk 1.

Dig this plane. A biplane in use by Britain's RAF and Royal Navy, was seemingly outmoded and antiquated when compared with its contemporaries: the German Messerschmitt, and the Brits' own Hawker Hurricane and Supermarine Spitfire. However, the Fairey Swordfish was instrumental in the sinking of the most famous German "cap ship" of the war, the Bismarck.

Carrying a lone torpedo as its main armament (supplemented by 2 7.69mm guns - one tail mounted and one nose mounted) , guys with balls the size of Parliament flew these things, nicknamed the "Stringbag," into the heavy flak cannons of the Bismarck in 1939 and dropped their 18" torpedoes into the water. Several of them scored good hits which crippled the Bismarck's rudder, and the ship was finished off by elements of the Royal Navy fleet shortly thereafter.

The Fairey Swordfish is probably one of the greatest untold stories of WWII. It gets the mention up front for the role it played that day, but no one really ever comments on them too heavily. It gets a little bit of a mention (mainly because you can't talk about the battle without mentioning them), and then you'll read paragraph after paragraph of the ensuing ship to ship battle that eventually sunk the Bismarck, the three-man Swordfish almost forgotten in the glory of battle, I guess.

Before I ramble off into oblivion, my point (and the segue) is that I think the Epee was heavily inspired by the Fairey Swordfish Mk. 1 and its courageous (and outright ballsy) pilots, and their instrumental role in sinking the Bismarck.

Back to work for me...

 

[Michelle D]

I think it's an excellent comparison.

 

[Quarto]

Carrying a lone torpedo as its main armament (supplemented by 2 7.69mm guns - one tail mounted and one nose mounted) , guys with balls the size of Parliament flew these things, nicknamed the "Stringbag," into the heavy flak cannons of the Bismarck in 1939 and dropped their 18" torpedoes into the water. Several of them scored good hits which crippled the Bismarck's rudder, and the ship was finished off by elements of the Royal Navy fleet shortly thereafter.

Just so we don't glorify the Swordfish too much, two small corrections. Firstly, there was only one good hit, and a very lucky one, given that nobody was aiming for the rudder and it was the only point on the ship where a hit would ensure the Bismarck's death. Secondly, the Bismarck's air defences weren't so impressive that they would pose a significant challenge for any torpedo bomber. They could just as easily have sent a twenty-year old Cuckoo, and it would have had the same chance of success.

Before I ramble off into oblivion, my point (and the segue) is that I think the Epee was heavily inspired by the Fairey Swordfish Mk. 1 and its courageous (and outright ballsy) pilots, and their instrumental role in sinking the Bismarck.

It very clearly wasn't . The Epee gets one off-hand reference to carrying a torpedo - it's pretty clear that delivering torpedoes is not its main reason for existence. It's a fast and agile light fighter with excellent guns that goes down after a few hits, designed to take on other fighters - it's the exact opposite of the slow, cumbersome, poorly-armed but very durable Swordfish torpedo bomber.

 

[Farbourne]

I have plenty to say on the "Tinfish" but have to run to a meeting right now.

But I would compare the Epee more to the Mitsubishi "Zero"...fast, agile, outperforms anything it came up against, powerful (but slow-firing) cannons, and paper thin armor that crumples if you look at it crosswise.

 

[frostytheplebe]

poorly-armed but very durable Swordfish torpedo bomber.

Durable? Really? As I recall during the Battle of the Atlantic, both Victorious and Ark Royal lost most of their bombers because the Bismark shot them down, and as you stated, her air defenses, at least compared to the Japanese, were kind of a joke.

 

[Highball]

I'm not so much glorifying the Swordfish as I am the people who flew them.

And yes, the rudder hit *was* a lucky hit scored out of a tactical mistake on Admiral Lutjens part, but by no means the only hit scored on the Bismarck by a Swordfish; it was just the hit that mattered the most. Without it, the Bismarck would have been able to do far more damage than it did, instead of being a virtual sitting duck for the Royal Navy. The Bismarck is noted for having sunk the Hood, pride of the British Navy, and crippling the other ship in that fight, Prince of Wales (IIRC). The sinking of the Hood is the whole reason the British went balls out to sink the Bismarck, so before comparing its armament and capabilities to stuff that was produced later in the war, keep in mind that the Bismarck was the Shasta McNasty of the sea in 1939.

Also, I don't think flak shot down any Swordfish that day, as the pilots made their attack runs at extremely low altitude and slow speed, specifically to throw off anti aircraft flak.

Before I get carried away ...

The Epee and the Swordfish are the same, in that you wonder what the Hell its doing in combat. "Really? This silly thing?" The amount of times I got blown to Hell in an Epee .. ugh. They both have a ship killer torpedo. It would take more than one Epee to take down a Fralthra, for example. Imagining multiple Epees on an attack run toward a giant cap ship totally puts the Swordfish and their run on the Bismarck in my mind.

They both have a pair of decent, yet puny (in comparison to their contemporaries, as I said) main guns. The Epee flying in the same war with Rapiers and Sabres is like comparing the Swordfish to planes like the F4F Wildcat or the Japanese Zero. Though they are all planes designed for different things, they all flew in the same war together, albeit the Swordfish came first. Unless there's some documentation somewhere that conclusively states that "it clearly wasn't" the inspiration for the Epee, that's just an opinion. Nothing "clear" about it, just what you think.

The Zero? No, the Zero was considered hot stuff by the Japanese until the F6F Hellcat came along, replacing the F4F Wildcat and earning the nickname "Zero killer." Certainly not what the majority of players consider an Epee ... or what was thought of the Swordfish in its heyday, either.

 

[Prometheus]

It has nothing to do with WWII comparison, but I had a thought about the Epee as well.

If you think of the Gratha and/or Hhriss as Kilrathi fighters kinda imitating Confed design, with the Epee it is more like the other way around: That's the closest fighter design Confed every got to Kilrathi style.

It's very fast and agile and its guns pack quite a punch, but on the other hand it doesn't offer much protection in form of armor.

And on the subject of its single torpedo: That fits in, too, as on its own it can't down a capship (or rather only small ones), but used in large packs they could be deadly capship killers.

 

[Szegedin]

But I would compare the Epee more to the Mitsubishi "Zero"...fast, agile, outperforms anything it came up against, powerful (but slow-firing) cannons, and paper thin armor that crumples if you look at it crosswise.

I thought the Zeros' were slow and maneuverable...

 

[Highball]

but used in large packs they could be deadly capship killers.

Exactly why I think of the Swordfish. That's why they were sent off toward the Bismarck. Get in, drop your torpedoes and hopefully score enough good hits to either sink or cripple the ship.

 

[powell99]

Durable? Really? As I recall during the Battle of the Atlantic, both Victorious and Ark Royal lost most of their bombers because the Bismark shot them down, and as you stated, her air defenses, at least compared to the Japanese, were kind of a joke.

My understanding was that the Bismarck's Anti Aircraft guns had trouble tracking the Swordfish, and as a result, FAA Casualties were almost non existant.

 

[QuailPilot]

If you like the Stringbag (err Swordfish) you could read the book, "To War in A Stringbag" by Commander Charles Lamb. Its an autobiography, but he was one of the swordfish pilots, and its quite interesting.

 

[Highball]

If you like the Stringbag (err Swordfish) you could read the book, "To War in A Stringbag" by Commander Charles Lamb. Its an autobiography, but he was one of the swordfish pilots, and its quite interesting.

Thanks for the recommendation! I will pick it up!

My understanding was that the Bismarck's Anti Aircraft guns had trouble tracking the Swordfish, and as a result, FAA Casualties were almost non existant.

It's like I said above, the Swordfish pilots flew low and slow, and thus the Bismarck's anti-aircraft flak guns had real trouble hitting them. Not one Swordfish was shot down, if I recall correctly.

 

[Farbourne]

OK, I did some checking, and folks are right...the Zero wasn't particularly fast. However, it was faster than the F4F wildcats it was up against, and it's level flight speed was fairly average for aircraft of it's day. Where it lacked a speed advantage was its dive speed (possibly due to it's light airframe and high wing loading?)...craft like the P-40 Warhawk could dive on it and then use their dive speed to quickly out-climb it (hence Chennault's tactics used so effectively against the Zero by the "Flying Tigers").

However, despite the fact it wasn't fast, I still think it is an excellent parallel for the Epee, far more so than the "Stringbag". The Swordfish was extremely slow and non-manueverable, and was effective precisely because it was so primitive...it flew so low that gunners had a hard time training their AA guns at it, and it flew so slow that gunners often over-corrected with their deflection shooting. It was really behind its times, and was effective only because people weren't used to it, and because it was reliable and hard to shoot down. It's primary role was also ship-attack.

The Epee, by contrast, was brand new and considered a "hot" fighter. Although we as gamers gripe about it, the sense you get in the game is that it is considered a pretty flashy craft...or at least that was always my sense playing WC2. It had the newest, most powerful gun available (the particle cannon), and was more maneuverable than any Confed or Kilrathi fighter of its day. It's primary role was also fighter-interception...strapping a torpedo to its belly and sending it up against Fralthra, while possible, was probably NOT a CAG's first option.

Consider:

Primary Role: Epee - Interceptor, Zero - Interceptor, Swordfish - Torpedo Bomber
Speed: Epee - Fast, Zero - average, Swordfish - slow
Maneuverability: Epee - high, Zero - high, Swordfish - low
Armor: Epee - light, Zero - light, Swordfish - light
Reliability: Epee - low, Zero - low, Swordfish - relatively high
Gun Armament: Epee: powerful cannons, Zero - powerful cannons, Swordfish - 1 light MG, plus one light turret

The closest analog to a Swordfish in the Wing Commander universe is probably not the Epee but the Scimitar...old, slow, only moderately maneuverable, not a ton of armor but simple and reliable even when it takes damage, used in capship strikes, and outdated but still dependable. Of course, the Scimitar is probably also a good analog for the F4F wildcat...

 

[QuailPilot]

I would think that the Swordfish was more maneuverable than people are giving it credit, I recall reading (with a diagram) that the Stringbags would dive with a German plane behind it, and the proceed to pull up at the last moment, and the German plane would crash in the ground or water.

 

[Highball]

I feel like the Scimitar is more analogous to the F4F Wildcat, as it is retired and replaced with the more agile and less problematic (climbing stalls, etc.) F6F Hellcat.

Anyway, the Swordfish. In the battle with the Bismarck, the Swordfish embodied the "nimble fighter." It was old, sure. Though, that worked to its advantage in this particular fight: it was slow enough to be effective as a torpedo bomber against the Bismarck because of its low top speed and the ability to fly low that that granted it.

I can see the point about the Zero being an interceptor as well as the Epee, but I am comparing the Swordfish to the Epee because of the torpedo. The Zero was meant to be a pure breed dogfighter, plain and simple. The Swordfish was meant to be able to dogfight, too, when it was built. Comparing the Swordfish to the Zero or Wildcat is not really very fair, since the Swordfish was built and introduced into regular service in the mid 30's, while the other two did not come around until the early 40's (and a lot of technical advancement later). Fighters like the Wildcat are not accurate comparisons, because they are heavier planes and thus carried heavier guns, like the Wildcat's SIX 50 caliber machine guns.

I say this because the capabilities of the Swordfish at the time of its manufacture were still dogfight worthy. Maybe not amazingly so, but it could still slug it out for a few minutes (most dogfights typically lasted less than a minute) with its contemporaries, like the CW-21 and Boeing's P-26 Peashooter, and drop a torpedo if the situation called for it. You can't class the Swordfish with the Wildcat or Zero, because they just aren't in the same class; the Zero and Wildcat are too advanced to be considered contemporaries of the Swordfish.

The Swordfish was actually used until the mid 40's alongside the Wildcat and in the same space as the Zero and the Messerschmitt, as well as the Supermarine Spitfire.

The Zero, however, was much much lighter than the Swordfish. It was much much lighter than .... well, anything else that could be considered its contemporary. With twin 20 cals and two other pea shooter machine guns which escape my memory at the moment, it was super maneuverable with decent weapons, but a wino's paper sack for armor. More like the Rapier to me.

During the time that it would have been used more often than not, the "Stringbag" could fire on fighters and capital ships such as the Bismarck with the seemingly out of place torpedo strapped to its belly ... like the Epee.

 

[Quarto]

Unless there's some documentation somewhere that conclusively states that "it clearly wasn't" the inspiration for the Epee, that's just an opinion. Nothing "clear" about it, just what you think.

This is silly - you're requiring me to prove that the Epee was not inspired by a torpedo bomber that's different in every possible way? All this because once, just once Angel mentions people flying Epees with torpedoes? Yes, my opinion is just an opinion, but it also happens to be common sense. The burden of proof in this case is very, very much on you. You'd really need to find a quote from Origin saying "the Epee was meant to be like a Swordfish". Even then, I'd laugh and say - "well, they sure failed on that count".

Durable? Really? As I recall during the Battle of the Atlantic, both Victorious and Ark Royal lost most of their bombers because the Bismark shot them down, and as you stated, her air defenses, at least compared to the Japanese, were kind of a joke.

As a few people already stated, the Bismarck failed utterly (though this was speficially because the Swordfish was too slow to track for its modern equipment), Swordfish losses were close to zero. In regards to the Swordfish's durability, it certainly wasn't a super-armoured plane, but its engine was armoured, and its double wings, though obviously a throwback, allowed it to take more damage and still remain in control. The point is, it certainly wasn't the Epee in that regard, as Highball would have us believe.

OK, I did some checking, and folks are right...the Zero wasn't particularly fast.

Context, guys, context . The Zero was, at its time, one of the fastest naval aircraft in the world. But it was a naval aircraft - and like all carrier-borne aircraft of the time period, it was slower than its land-based counterparts, due to different operating requirements. You cannot, however, consider its speed to be average - yes, it was slower than the Spitfire and other similar aircraft... but it was not designed to meet them. Its enemies would have been the Wildcat (which it could outrun), and the Fairey Fulmar (which was even slower - now, that was a Scimitar). So, yes, the Zero was an extremely fast plane for its time.

 

[Highball]

This is silly - you're requiring me to prove that the Epee was not inspired by a torpedo bomber that's different in every possible way? All this because once, just once Angel mentions people flying Epees with torpedoes? Yes, my opinion is just an opinion, but it also happens to be common sense. The burden of proof in this case is very, very much on you. You'd really need to find a quote from Origin saying "the Epee was meant to be like a Swordfish". Even then, I'd laugh and say - "well, they sure failed on that count".

No, it's on YOU once you use phrases like: "It very clearly wasn't." Oh really? Very clearly, eh? Do you know something I don't? Because up until that point, we were just speculating. You came into the mix with a statement that implied concise intent on the designer's part. Common sense? Again, up until then this was just speculation, what does common sense have to do with complete and utter speculation on a topic where proof one way or the other will likely NEVER surface? YOU would be the one who needed to find something that said "The Epee is like a Zero," if you want to use phrases indicative of clear intent. All I ever said is: "This is what I think," or "This is what it looks like TO ME."

The point is, it certainly wasn't the Epee in that regard, as Highball would have us believe.

The important part of this quote is "in that regard." No, I would not "have you believe" that the Swordfish is an Epee in every single regard. As I said before, it is for the fighter/torpedo aspect, which you very, very quickly touch upon before launching back into the "I'm smarter than you" rant. Give it a rest, willya?

Context, guys, context . The Zero was, at its time, one of the fastest naval aircraft in the world. But it was a naval aircraft - and like all carrier-borne aircraft of the time period, it was slower than its land-based counterparts, due to different operating requirements. You cannot, however, consider its speed to be average - yes, it was slower than the Spitfire and other similar aircraft... but it was not designed to meet them. Its enemies would have been the Wildcat (which it could outrun), and the Fairey Fulmar (which was even slower - now, that was a Scimitar). So, yes, the Zero was an extremely fast plane for its time.

Here we go again, using "at its time" and what the Zero was designed to do battle with, ignoring the fact that the Zero was released much later than the Swordfish and intended to take on a much more technologically advanced enemy fighter. Yes, for its time it was great. "Its time" was almost 5 years later than the Swordfish's, so the comparison is specious. You're also ignoring what the Swordfish was "at its time" and what it was designed to do battle with. The Zero was not around during the Swordfish's "heyday." That's like comparing the a brand new computer today with one that was brand new 5 years ago. Seemingly very little time, whole world of technological difference.

Anyway, you think what you want. That's your opinion, that's your right. However, if you're going to discuss it with someone, at least try not to insult the person on the other end while you're doing it, hmm?

 

[Quarto]

No, it's on YOU once you use phrases like: "It very clearly wasn't." Oh really? Very clearly, eh? Do you know something I don't?

Ehhhh... I guess that's the point where I'll give up. There is absolutely no similarity between the Epee and the Swordfish in any regard - you're building your theories on a single throw-away line about the Epee carrying a torpedo, and then you respond with pretend-injury when I point out that this comparison simply doesn't make sense. Well, whatever - if you want to pretend that anyone who disagrees with your theory or dares to point out its obvious flaws must be trying to insult you, that's your problem.

Here we go again, using "at its time" and what the Zero was designed to do battle with, ignoring the fact that the Zero was released much later than the Swordfish and intended to take on a much more technologically advanced enemy fighter.

I was not talking to you. I made no attempt to compare the Zero with the Swordfish - I wouldn't even see the point of such a comparison. Since you insist on seeing personal insult in everything I say, I would take it as a kindness if you didn't respond to things that are not in any way addressed at you.

 

[Highball]

Ehhhh... I guess that's the point where I'll give up. There is absolutely no similarity between the Epee and the Swordfish in any regard - you're building your theories on a single throw-away line about the Epee carrying a torpedo, and then you respond with pretend-injury when I point out that this comparison simply doesn't make sense. Well, whatever - if you want to pretend that anyone who disagrees with your theory or dares to point out its obvious flaws must be trying to insult you, that's your problem.

Oh, for the love of ... wait, you're serious, aren't you? Look. You said to me: "It very clearly wasn't." There is no being "injured" about it. You want to make statements like that? "Very clearly"? You had better be prepared to back it up with more than just "well, it's common sense," because otherwise, there's nothing "very clear" about it. Maybe to you, but not in the grand scheme of random speculation. As I said (which you ignored ... as has been the case with you several times already in this thread), the "burden of proof," as you put it, is on you when you make statements like this. A better choice of words would have been: "Well, it's my opinion that it isn't." It's okay, though. Go ahead and "give up" and insult me some more just because I disagree with you. It's chill. No similarities in any regard. Oh, okay, you're totally ri--oh, wait. There's that torpedo. Nope, I guess that doesn't matter to you. A good plane for its day that carried a torpedo so it could go up against both fighters and boats. No, no similarity at all. If you like the Zero for the Epee, that's fine ... I'll just forget that that's like saying the Arrow was inspired by a Hornet.

I was not talking to you. I made no attempt to compare the Zero with the Swordfish - I wouldn't even see the point of such a comparison. Since you insist on seeing personal insult in everything I say, I would take it as a kindness if you didn't respond to things that are not in any way addressed at you.

Give me a break. Really? You post in a general discussion thread where everyone is talking and throwing things into the conversation, then tell me you "weren't talking to" me? You might want to end your posts, then, with: "Don't anyone except for so and so reply to this, because I ain't talking to any of you, so kindly butt the Hell out, please."

 

[Jason_Ryock]

I feel like the Scimitar is more analogous to the F4F Wildcat, as it is retired and replaced with the more agile and less problematic (climbing stalls, etc.) F6F Hellcat.

I think most people would say the Wildcat is analogous to the Wildcat.