Fighter Group Term Question

Farbourne

Rear Admiral
Sorry if this question has been answered before, but it's something I was wondering.

Is there any formal definition of the terms "wing", "flight", "squadron", "group", etc., with regard to number of fighters or number of pilots? In Star Wars fiction I've seen fairly detailed definitions of the terms for both the Rebel Alliance and the Empire (e.g. in the Alliance, a "wing" is two fighters, and "flight" is two wings, a "squadron" is three flights (12 fighters), and an "air group" is several squadrons). Is there a corresponding formalization for the Confederation and Kilrathi, or is a "wing" just taken to mean "whatever fighters happen to fly together with the same objective in a given mission", a "squadron" to mean "whatever group of pilots stake out certain tables in the rec room", and an "air group" to mean "all the fighters on a given carrier"? How big is a "squadron" and an "air group"? Are they defined by the fighters they have available, or the pilots? Is there a 1-1 correspondence between pilots and fighters or not? (The movie implies that each pilot has his own fighter, but the games, and common sense, imply that a pilot is assigned to whatever fighter is available and relevant to the assigned mission).


Just from playing the games, here's what it seems like to me, although I welcome corrections from more well-read fans:

In WC1, a wing always seems to be two fighters, and a squadron looks to contain about 8 or 9 pilots or more (from the briefing room animations), although each squadron probably has more. We know the Claw has 3 (and later 4) squadrons, and about 100+ fighters or so (or at least that capacity), although it seems likely to me that a carrier (like modern aircraft carriers) probably carries fewer operational fighters than its maximum capacity at any given time, and that it probably has fewer pilots than operational fighters, because of mission speciality of different fighters and the need to provide pilots with fighters even when some fighters are damaged or down for maintenence.

In WC2, wings usually seem to contain two fighters, but there's at least one case where we see a wing of Epees with three fighters. The Concordia seems to have only one fighter "squadron" (led by Angel), which comprises her entire air group? In this case, the squadron must be very large, and seems to be a term to describe all the pilots on the Concordia.

In WC3 the Victory has one fighter squadron. We only see about eight or so pilots, and there are eight names on the killboard, but I assume that she probably has more pilots and fighters than we see in the game.

WC4 is a special case, so I won't draw any conclusions there.

WCP has wings of up to four or five fighters (what I would naturally call a "flight"), and the Midway carries 2 (and later 3) "squadrons" of roughly 12-20 or so pilots each? At least, that is what the killboard implies. I found it a little odd that the game implies that the Midway is bigger than your standard carrier, and is somewhat special because of her size and because she carries three squadrons instead of one or two, yet the Claw carried 3 or 4 several years before and was not that remarkable of a carrier. Maybe the Midway is just remarkable for being so big in peacetime?
 
it probably has fewer pilots than operational fighters, because of mission speciality of different fighters and the need to provide pilots with fighters even when some fighters are damaged or down for maintenence.

I would think you would want at least as many pilots as fighters considering each pilot spends several hours a day sleeping.
 
I would think you would want at least as many pilots as fighters considering each pilot spends several hours a day sleeping.

Pilots do eject, you have to figure that more pilots survive the destruction of their fighters than are salvaged after a pilots death.
 
In Star Wars fiction I've seen fairly detailed definitions of the terms for both the Rebel Alliance and the Empire (e.g. in the Alliance, a "wing" is two fighters, and "flight" is two wings, a "squadron" is three flights (12 fighters), and an "air group" is several squadrons).

I've never seen that count or those terms before. It's pretty clear that a pair of Fighters in the SW Verse is called an "element" not a wing. 4 Fighters is a flight, 3 Flights is a Squadron (12 Ships).

Wings (For the Empire) are usually Six Squadrons.
Groups (For the Empire) are usually Three Squadrons.

For the Alliance, the terms "Wings" and "Groups" seem to be interchangable, sometimes a wing is six squadrons, sometimes it's three.

Other sources seem to follow the same naming conjecture, a wing not being two fighters but a collection of squadrons, and an element being a pair of fighters.
 
Sorry to interrupt, but:
In Star Wars fiction I've seen fairly detailed definitions of the terms for both the Rebel Alliance and the Empire (e.g. in the Alliance, a "wing" is two fighters, and "flight" is two wings, a "squadron" is three flights (12 fighters), and an "air group" is several squadrons).
In Star Wars, we have an "element" (2 fighters), a "flight" (2 elements/4 fighters), a "squadron" (3 flights/12 fighters) and a "wing" (3 squadrons/36 fighters for the Rebel Alliance, 6 squadrons/72 fighters for the Imperial Navy). There's no such thing as an "air group" in Star Wars.

And now back to topic! ;)

How big is a "squadron" and an "air group"? Are they defined by the fighters they have available, or the pilots? Is there a 1-1 correspondence between pilots and fighters or not?
I'm sure LOAF will discover this thread soon and point you to some exact sources, but for the time being, I can tell you that the size of a squadron varies from 10 to 15 fighters (IIRC) during different eras of WC. (Yes, I learned that from LOAF, too. :D )
In WC1, you can see squadron insignia on all the fighters you fly in the game (i.e., a yellow Killer Bee on the Hornet) - which would imply that fighters are permanently assigned to specific squadrons. I'd say pilots are also assigned to specific squadrons, but not necessarily to specific fighters. IMHO, the latter wouldn't make much sense during war-time operations... Maybe there's a "preferred" fighter for each pilot in a squadron (the one with the pilot's memorabilia in it :p ) - but in case of a scramble, I guess you don't have much choice if your "personal" fighter was FUBAR after your last sortie...
 
Sorry, my bad on the star wars thing. I got the data from the X-Wing series of novels, but it was a long time ago that I read them and probably replaced the term "element" with the term "wing" by accident, because Wing Commander games are way better than X-Wing/TIE Fighter... :-)

Anyway, I've noticed the squadron insignia in WC1, and in any case, the different squadrons fly different fighter classes. This also seems to be the case in Prophecy (Pirahna's and Tigersharks in Diamondback, Panthers and Shrikes in Black Widow, and Vampires and Devastators in the third squadron). But not in any of the other games...although this was maybe because the Concordia, Victory, Lexington, and Intrepid each only had one fighter squadron?
 
Well, it's easy to get confused both in SW and in WC because they often say "Take your wing and..." followed by the orders, which certainly sounds as if they are referring to the two-ship element as a wing, when in reality they mean, "Take your wingman" and they're just abbreviating.

Also, I believe, in the case of the WCP the fighter squadrons were set up that way to improve the quality of ships the player would be piloting as the game progressed - though as it's been pointed out, LOAF can provide you with more details on this.
 
...but for the time being, I can tell you that the size of a squadron varies from 10 to 15 fighters (IIRC) during different eras of WC. (Yes, I learned that from LOAF, too. :D )...

In the WCIV novel I believe it is mentioned that wartime squadron strength of 10 fighters was increased to 16 after the war. However, the number 10 seems slightly low to me on a practical and historical level.
 
However, the number 10 seems slightly low to me on a practical and historical level.

Yorktown-class (Formerly know as Ranger Type) carries 44 fighters in four squadrons of 11 fighters each, so maybe squadron size depends on deployment location and ship capabilities?
 
LOAF checking in from vacation in Old Saybrook, CT! I'll come home from this crazy vacation... someday...

Is there any formal definition of the terms "wing", "flight", "squadron", "group", etc., with regard to number of fighters or number of pilots? In Star Wars fiction I've seen fairly detailed definitions of the terms for both the Rebel Alliance and the Empire (e.g. in the Alliance, a "wing" is two fighters, and "flight" is two wings, a "squadron" is three flights (12 fighters), and an "air group" is several squadrons). Is there a corresponding formalization for the Confederation and Kilrathi, or is a "wing" just taken to mean "whatever fighters happen to fly together with the same objective in a given mission", a "squadron" to mean "whatever group of pilots stake out certain tables in the rec room", and an "air group" to mean "all the fighters on a given carrier"? How big is a "squadron" and an "air group"? Are they defined by the fighters they have available, or the pilots? Is there a 1-1 correspondence between pilots and fighters or not? (The movie implies that each pilot has his own fighter, but the games, and common sense, imply that a pilot is assigned to whatever fighter is available and relevant to the assigned mission).

Wing Commander uses "Wing" to mean two different things: one is a varied and situational unit, the equivalent of a modern-day 'element' and the other is an organized military unit composed of several squadrons (the same as its modern military usage).

The first usage changes from mission to mission. Alpha Wing might be two Sabres commanded by Primate one day and then ten Broadswords commanded by Lone Wolf the next. It's basically one leader and between zero and unlimited wingmen. When Blair is Spirit's 'wing commander' in the original game, it is because he's commanding one of these individual missions.

The second usage is part of the overall heirarchy of the Terran Confederation Space Force. We can run through that now:

A squadron is the smallest unit, consisting of between ten and eighteen fighters, usually of the same type (in some cases squadrons have mutliple types of fighters - both the Scimitar squadron seen on WCA and the CF-117 Rapier squadron in the movie seem to have also included a pair of Broadswords...). I know Star Wars likes to be incredibly clear cut about the size of squadrons (every rag-tag rebel X-Wing squadron in the galaxy has exactly twelve fighters at all times - right), but Wing Commander doesn't. The sizes change depending on the point of the war (averaging 16 in the pre and post-war eras, ten at the very end of the war and several amounts between before that) and depending on role, ship assigned, etc.

A wing is the next size up, consisting of between three and {unknown} fighter squadrons. The TCS Victory had a single fighter wing (36th FW) which was made up of four fighter squadrons (Red, Blue, Green and Gold). Blair was the 'Wing Commander' in this game because he was the commanding officer in charge of the carrier's fighter wing. Since there's no set number of squadrons in a wing (and no set number of fighters in a squadron) there's no definite size of a wing. The Victory had ten fighters in each of her four squadrons... the Lexington had six squadrons with sixteen each.

Larger carriers may have several fighter wings - the Midway had three and the Vesuvius-class had four each.

... and then the problem is that two games (WC2 and WCP) switch these definitions around - using 'squadron' to mean 'wing' (2) at various points. Angel is commander of the Concordia's fighter *wing* (which would be divided into smaller units - squadrons) and the Midway has three *wings* (which each would have several individual squadrons).

In WC1, a wing always seems to be two fighters, and a squadron looks to contain about 8 or 9 pilots or more (from the briefing room animations), although each squadron probably has more. We know the Claw has 3 (and later 4) squadrons, and about 100+ fighters or so (or at least that capacity), although it seems likely to me that a carrier (like modern aircraft carriers) probably carries fewer operational fighters than its maximum capacity at any given time, and that it probably has fewer pilots than operational fighters, because of mission speciality of different fighters and the need to provide pilots with fighters even when some fighters are damaged or down for maintenence.

This is wing-as-element (first definition).

Note that the Tiger's Claw has more than four squadrons - we *fly* with four squadrons in the game. I believe that Pilgrim Stars claims the ship has six total. In Wing Commander I alone mentions the "Yellowjackets" (Hornets)... and the "Mongrols" and the "Screamin' Shepards" were onboard at some point, too. (Then there's the alternate SNES names for the Scimitar and Raptor squadrons... Blue Angels and Rising Star, respectively.)

All indications are that there was a rough parity between pilots and fighters - the Tiger's Claw would (barring inevitable losses) be assigned 104 fighters and 104 pilots. As in 'real life' pilots generally have a fighter personally assigned to them, with alternates being used when necessary.

In WC2, wings usually seem to contain two fighters, but there's at least one case where we see a wing of Epees with three fighters. The Concordia seems to have only one fighter "squadron" (led by Angel), which comprises her entire air group? In this case, the squadron must be very large, and seems to be a term to describe all the pilots on the Concordia.

As noted above, Angel does refer to the Concordia's wing as a squadron at one point. It's possible that the Concordia has some different unit setup because she's a battleship rather than a true carrier - but a 120-plane squadron seems pretty odd.

In WC3 the Victory has one fighter squadron. We only see about eight or so pilots, and there are eight names on the killboard, but I assume that she probably has more pilots and fighters than we see in the game.

The Victory had 40 pilots and 40 planes assigned, divided into four squadrons. We see some of the others in the game - Primate, Bacon Boy, Styg, etc.

WC4 is a special case, so I won't draw any conclusions there.

Both the Lexington and the Intrepid did have actual organized fighter wings.

WCP has wings of up to four or five fighters (what I would naturally call a "flight"), and the Midway carries 2 (and later 3) "squadrons" of roughly 12-20 or so pilots each? At least, that is what the killboard implies. I found it a little odd that the game implies that the Midway is bigger than your standard carrier, and is somewhat special because of her size and because she carries three squadrons instead of one or two, yet the Claw carried 3 or 4 several years before and was not that remarkable of a carrier. Maybe the Midway is just remarkable for being so big in peacetime?

Prophecy is the biggest problem because, basically, they filmed a script that said 'squadron' where it should have said 'wing'. The Midway carries 252 planes, which is over twice the size of the Tiger's Claw's complement. There are plenty of pilots not listed on the killboard - they show up in some of the cutscenes (Vanguard, Cantrell, Lisa, etc.).
 
Yorktown-class (Formerly know as Ranger Type)

There was never a Ranger "Type." Previously, we've used the word "type" to specify ships of a certain class when no official class name was known. In the case of the Ranger, we *only* know the class name and not any ships of the class. We've been saying for a while now that the assumption that the Victory was Ranger class was probably far-fetched, and Star*Soldier confirms it.
 
There was never a Ranger "Type." Previously, we've used the word "type" to specify ships of a certain class when no official class name was known. In the case of the Ranger, we *only* know the class name and not any ships of the class. We've been saying for a while now that the assumption that the Victory was Ranger class was probably far-fetched, and Star*Soldier confirms it.

OH, I'm aware. I meant to say Victory type - my experience has been that the Yorktown class name hasn't percolated through the community enough yet. I've had several conversations with people about the Yorktown-class and they stop me to ask me what it is, and I have to explain.

All indications are that there was a rough parity between pilots and fighters - the Tiger's Claw would (barring inevitable losses) be assigned 104 fighters and 104 pilots. As in 'real life' pilots generally have a fighter personally assigned to them, with alternates being used when necessary.

Would it be safe to assume this is the case, and the examples (From games) of flying multiple types of craft but not changes squadrons is either a military need or a story point?

I've often wondered about this.
 
Yorktown-class (Formerly know as Ranger Type) carries 44 fighters in four squadrons of 11 fighters each, so maybe squadron size depends on deployment location and ship capabilities?

Interesting. Is this from the novel or the game? And where all 11 flown at once or was one a spare for a squadron of 10, for example.
 
Thanks, LOAF! That clears a lot of things up. So is an "air group" the same as a "wing" or is it one level up? In Prophecy, the CAG, or "Commander Air Group", seems to be in command of all the fighters on the Midway, which you said comprise three "wings" (which are mistakenly referred to as squadrons), each of which probably contains multiple squadrons... Is this distinction relevant for the first time on the Midway, because no previous carrier has been big enough to have multiple wings? I.e. on any smaller carrier, there is no CAG because the "wing commander" is already in command of all the fighters on board? And what rank does the CAG hold? A wing seems to be commanded by a Colonel (Halcyon on the Claw, Angel on the Concordia, Blair on the Victory/Lexington/Intrepid)...is a CAG therefore a flag rank (equivalent to Brigadier General or Rear Admiral?) How does this compare to moder aircraft carriers?

It is confusing how "wing", "squadron", and "air group" seem to be used interchangebly, especially in Prophecy, when they really shouldn't be. I guess it's just a case of the script-writers not paying as much attention to the continuity experts as they ought.

So to get this straight:

Tigers's Claw:
More than 4, possibly as many as 10, probably about 6 squadrons of 10-16 fighters each. Each squadron seems to have a single fighter type, for the most part. Tiger's Claw fighters comprise a single air wing, commanded by Halcyon?
TOTAL 104 fighters (at full strength, which probably didn't happen too often).
(this was earlier in the way, and your post implied average squadron size shrunk over the course of the war, so 12-16 fighter squadrons may have been possible).

Concordia:
Probably 10-12 squadrons of 10-12 fighters each, making up 1 air wing, commanded by Angel.
TOTAL: 120 fighters

Victory:
4 squadrons of 10 fighters each, making up one air wing commanded by Blair.
TOTAL: 40 fighters.

Lexington/Intrepid:
What I meant by "special case" was that half or more of the Lexington's fighters and pilots seemed to be not under Blair's command, and seemed to be part of Tolwyn's "black ops". So her wing wasn't set up like normal wings? Did she actually have two "wings"--one black ops and one normal (commanded by Blair?) And the Intrepid wing was sort of pieced together by whatever they could find, without a clear chain of command.

Midway:
Three wings (~84 fighters each?), each composed of about 5 squadrons of 16 fighters each? Black Widow "wing" was briefly commanded by Maniac. All three wings were commanded by the CAG.
TOTAL: 252 fighters

Is this right, then?
 
Regarding the killboard...I was always under the impression that the reason why there are so few names on any given killboard, relative to the number of pilots on a ship, is that ships probably have multiple rec-rooms, and that pilots tend to frequent only the one frequented by other pilots in their same wing/squadron/quatering block/whatever. I.e., not all 104 of the Claw's pilots hung out in the same rec-room (it's way too small, and shotglass would be overworked... :-) So the Killboards we see have only the names of the pilots that frequent that particular rec-room. That also explains why, even though there are tens to hundreds of pilots on a given carrier, any given pilot only sees and gets to know well a dozen or two--these are the people he/she lives with, drinks with, and flies with on a regular basis. How does this jive with the fiction?
 
Isn't the CAG a col.?

I really don't remember the rank insignia on the Midway's CAG right now

They only ever called her "Commander", so I'm assuming that, if it's the same as the Naval ranks, she'd be the equivalent of a lieutenant colonel. Then again, where Prophecy is concerned, no one really seemed to have any type of distinguishing rank insignia.

That's where I loved the dress uniforms on WCII. There was no doubting who was what rank. Plus they were just cool as hell.
 
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