Favorite Ships

[lorddarthvik]

IT happened before the "official" war was declared. ameicans were already bombing iraq for a month though.... The souece was reliable, although it was russian and iraq-es. I don't have the pictures taken .The same thing happened as in Bosnia, the plane was flying so low that it could be seen with bare eyes. The this was not officially declared by USAF of course, just like the happenings with the F117s in the earlier Eastern conflicts (which were later, 10-15 years, officially revealed)

 

[Maj.Striker]

Well let's consider this since it' quite interesting.

As far as I'm aware, the Mig 29 has not seen live combat against equivalent aircraft enough times to have the results considered decisive. Yes, there was some small skirmishes (namely Iraq) and the Mig 29 was dropped but like someone here has mentioned already, a great deal depends on the pilot. Right now, I'd take an Israeli pilot over just about any other in the world.

The F-15 was indeed the undisputed master of it's day, it was involved in enough dogfights to produce some definitable results.

Best example would be in the Operation Peace for Galilee

During 1982 Operation Peace for Galilee, IAF warplans destroyed the Syrian air defence without a single fighter lost and shot down 80 Syrian aircraft (some claim that part of the Syrian aircraft shot down by the IAF were piloted by Soviet pilots).

(source: Wikipedia)

The F-15 in Israeli hands was incredible.

F-16 has also been involved in enough combat situations to prove it's worth. The F22, however, has not. The jury is still out on its actual live combat performance. Hopefully, it will stay that way, but if not, I hope it proves worth the fortune spent developing them.

 

[Horus]

but like someone here has mentioned already, a great deal depends on the pilot.

To be honest, I don't agree with this much anymore. I most admit I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure that dogfights don't happen much any more. During a dog fight, the pilots skill is paramount, mind you so is the ability of the aircraft, but if both planes were of equal ability, then it all came down to the ability of the pilots. Nowadays, its more of a point-and-click thing. Select a target, fire the missile. I could be wrong, but as I said, I don't think there have been any proper dogfights within recent years since missiles have become so long-ranged and effective. So nowadays, rather then coming down to the abilities of the pilot, its come down to the abilities of the plane.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not dissing pilots or anything, in fact I greatly respect them, its just in todays world, things are different, and to a extend easier, so that it makes things easier for the pilot.

BTW - just quickly going back to the F-22/Su-47 things. Someone said that the F-22 has gone with stealth so that it can't be seen and can shoot without been seen, and that Su has gone with manouvability, or something like that. Just to clear it up, the Su-47 is also a stealth aircraft with internal weapon bays and long range weapons, just like the Raptor. They are as far is I know, quite similar, with just different approaches to things, espicially manouvability. The Raptor went with thrust vectoring, and Su stuck with what they know best and do so well with. And both approaches work.

 

[Edfilho]

That makes some sense... BUT considering the amount of data thrown at the pilot these days, I think that good pilots will still make a difference. Not as much in the dogfighting skills, but the data management and decision making processes. Flying combat aircraft is less and less about being a top gun and more and more about being some kind of nerd

Just consider how easy it is to just fly a F-22 compared to a Bf-109... or a F-4U Corsair...

It is really hard to stall the modern jets.

 

[Spertallica]

You all might be interested in this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_2000s_fighter_aircraft

It features a study done by Britain to determine the success rates of western aircraft against the Su-35 using simulators programmed with the characteristics of the various aircraft. Against the Su-35, older aircraft (F-16, F-18) tended to have a negative kill to loss ratio (the Su-35 would kill over twice as many of these aircraft per Su-35 lost). The F-15 (also far older then the Su-35) had a 0.8 to 1 kill to loss ratio. However, the study found that the F-22 had a whopping 10.1 to 1 kill to loss ratio against the Su-35.

As for the Su-47 in it's current form, for all intents and purposes, it's still an experimental aircraft, and it's likely that it's forward swept wing design will never see production- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-47 -it seems silly to compare an experimental aircraft to the going-into-production F-22 and conclude from that that Russia has superior aerospace technology. It would be like comparing a plane in the X-plane series to a fighter that has already gone through the R&D phase and is ready for production- experimental planes always will have certain wild performance advantages to already-developed fighters, along with the huge disadvantages that come along with that performance (The forward-swept wing design of the Su-47 does make it wildly maneuverable, but present huge cost and manufacturing difficulties, making full scale production of the craft in its current form unfeasible)

If you really wanted to compare aerospace technology, compare the American X-Series to whatever Russia's equivalent of the X-Series is. (though the biggest problem in doing that is that it is not likely that the US government or the Russian government has made available to the public the existence and capabilities of their latest experimental aircraft, making an absolute comparison speculative at best)

 

[Maj.Striker]

If you really wanted to compare aerospace technology, compare the American X-Series to whatever Russia's equivalent of the X-Series is. (though the biggest problem in doing that is that it is not likely that the US government or the Russian government has made available to the public the existence and capabilities of their latest experimental aircraft, making an absolute comparison speculative at best)

That's very interesting, and I agree, America already has at least two separate x-plane projects that involved the forward swept wing design, it's not a uniquely Russian development. However, like Spertallica mentioned, the forward swept wing design has not conclusively been proved worth the experiment. Until we see a production fighter with this design and test it against the conventional modern fighters...the jury is out.

 

[Edfilho]

AFAIK, one of the US forward swept wing x-planes was the X-29. it needed lots of computers managing the control surfaces because apparently the wing design makes the planes really, really unstable... It had like 2 extra backup redundant computers just in case... I wouldn't like to fly that thing at all!

Hey, Spertallica, thanks for the links, they seem to support my opinions

EDIT: yeah, here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_X-29

 

[Cyberion]

how interesting you put it. I've never told that russia has the superiour aircrafts. All i did is stated the F-22 and F-16 aren't uber ships, cause... (read previous posts).


Also How did they manage to make comparision of F-22 and SU-35? I mean did they tested it in the training combat? I guess not, jsut the computer model, which most of the time proves not to work Although as i said before F-22 is a really good ship. IAnd i guess SU-35 won't stand 1:1 effectevly. But there are SU-37 "Terminator" and the further production at the end of the 2005 year of SU-47 "Berkut". So SU-47 made it into the life. Also you shouldn't forget that SU-35 is a fourth generation and F-22 is a 5th generation jet. Only SU-47 will become the 5th generation russian jet.

But it seems everyone misses SU-37 "Terminator", whihc is something between 4th and 5th generation jet. And can really stand any F-22 attack (whihc isn't proven by the combat, only by the compute model).

The thing is that none of the sides, know the every detail in the ship, so it's almsot impossible to creat realistic tests from both sides


So once again F-22 is a really good ship, but IT'S NOT UBER! Cause there is SU-37 series and further SU-47.

The only thing that bothers me, if this jet is so uber? than why didn't it got into the mass production (it was long time since it was officialised as a final) to protect the USA's borders? I think there is something wrong with it or there is something more bigger in the developing (so they save money for the new jet) or it is somewhat similar to SU last series and especialy to the future SU-47, this means that if the jet isn't uberer, but similar, does it worth to produce it massively for a very high price per jet only to creat the fleet of the good jets and that aren't superiour in the air, but just compatetive?.. i guess no.

I think USA government switched to the rockets (missiles) production and developing.

 

[lorddarthvik]

Note to wikipedia's lieing: The first X-plane was built in 1945 in Germany. IT never flew. Then, Americans brought it home intact. They brought home everything of German scientists developed, but most of the aircrafts were destroyed by the Germans before retreating. So, the point is that the X-1 was builtby Germans, and then wihtout haveing to add anything to it, it flew as it was by the Americans. That was proven by original photos/documents. Point.

 

[Joker057]

The only thing that bothers me, if this jet is so uber? than why didn't it got into the mass production (it was long time since it was officialised as a final) to protect the USA's borders? I think there is something wrong with it or there is something more bigger in the developing (so they save money for the new jet) or it is somewhat similar to SU last series and especialy to the future SU-47, this means that if the jet isn't uberer, but similar, does it worth to produce it massively for a very high price per jet only to creat the fleet of the good jets and that aren't superiour in the air, but just compatetive?.. i guess no.

I would have to comment that the U.S. isn't buying up loads of F-22s because our strategy has changed since the end of the Cold War. We aren't expecting to shoot down hordes of Russian cruise misslie carrying bombers and their fighter escorts any longer. Yes they are saving their money and planning in the long run to fight less technologically equipped enemies. The Communist Soviet threat of world domination is gone but the threat of localized low intensity threats prevail and Uberfighters aren't needed to combat a man with an AK-47 hiding in a cave. For that we need intelligence gathering capabilities and troops to root him out of the cave and to chase down his buddies. The only real potential threat in the long run would have to be a militiristic expansionist red China and the best of their best are Su-27s and they only have a few hundred and givin the kill ratios against fourth gen fighters, a squadron of F-22s could handle that threat easily if our stealths don't catch those fighters on the ground first.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Note to wikipedia's lieing: The first X-plane was built in 1945 in Germany. IT never flew. Then, Americans brought it home intact. They brought home everything of German scientists developed, but most of the aircrafts were destroyed by the Germans before retreating. So, the point is that the X-1 was builtby Germans, and then wihtout haveing to add anything to it, it flew as it was by the Americans. That was proven by original photos/documents. Point.

You're confusing your stupid conspiracy theories.

 

[Mjr. Whoopass]

You're confusing your stupid conspiracy theories.

Perhaps I can help clear things up

...."Smithsonian Institution". Too bad I found out they're Evolutionist Nazis!

You don't know the half of it -- they've got an ME-109 in their "Air and Space" museum and everything!

So you see, The X-1 may very well have been an AMERICAN invention by those oh-so-clever and reputable Smithsonian's. That would mean we may not have brought it from Germany... maybe it was here all along in the Smithsonian Nazi basement- where it may still lay today (Cue Commander Reicher aka. host of the SciFi conspiracy show) Fact or Fiction.. you be the judge.

Seriously though, I feel I should post something r.e. fav. ships. Though it's not my fav. ship, I've noticed some people underestimate the Razor starfighter from WC4. The only reason I can think of for it's underestimation may be from people playing the rookie type difficulty setting, or because it's flown by pirates in earlier missions where enemy ships don't drastically outnumber you. Or maybe its another conspiracy . I like this little fighter, those little buggers can coast at a speed of 550- faster than even the Arrow, equal to Bearcat... they also carry 8 missiles- more than the Hellcat, Thunderbolt, and equal to the Arrow. Terrible armor, but who's going to hit you at this ship's speed? I like the looks of it so much that I'm currently using Cyberion's "Light The Space" Wallpaper which features it.

 

[Edfilho]

I'll ignore the whole insane "X-1 is NaZZi" stuff...
And cyberion does not seem to comprehend my point. when I, Edmo, call a F-22 an uber fighter, I'm in no way whatsoever claiming that it's invincible. Just that it's better than most of the other current active fighters. I don't care if the competition is from older generations, this is no freaking Miss Fighter show. This is not about being fair. This is about the fact that the F-22 has great chances of destroying most other fighters currently active. just that. The Berkut is very far from reality, anyways.

 

[Maj.Striker]

I'm going to ignore the X-1 and smithsonian debate as well as it's pointless and not (as far as I can tell) having any relevance to our current conversation.

I understand AND agree with Edmo, when he said that the F-22 is an uber fighter. What he means is that it's probably the best fighter actively serving in an air force today. Is it invincible? No! Is it the absolute best fighter? No! But it is the best fighter currently in service, and when I say best, I mean technologically advanced (i.e. it can gun down any competition with a relatively high level of statistical assurance).

As for the SU-37 and 47 section of this, I would have to say that the 47 is (as I understand it) a protoype. You can never match a prototype against a live production fighter. Many prototypes get canned. The argument about comparing a 4th generation fighter against a 5th generation fighter is also not the best argument to make...it's the other countries' weakness for not having a 5th generation fighter ready yet...while they finish their 5th generation fighter, the US will be working on their 6th.

I guess my point is, I'd take the F22 statistically over any other active fighter in the world right now...that doesn't mean that the F22 is undefeatable...it's very much so, but statistically it stands a much greater chance of winning in one on one combat right now against any other active fighter.

 

[Edx]

maybe it was here all along in the Smithsonian Nazi basement- where it may still lay today (Cue Commander Reicher aka. host of the SciFi conspiracy show)
.

---

My favourite ship other the Excaliber in Wing 3 was the Arrow. it was fast, and with slide it was great! Yea... it did take a while to take down things but I hardly got hit

 

[Mjr. Whoopass]

I'm going to ignore the X-1 and smithsonian debate as well as it's pointless and not (as far as I can tell) having any relevance to our current conversation.

It was meant to be a joke and I appologize that it didn't work. I found it funny that LOAF posted r.e. someone's conspiracy theory about German aircraft considering he and I posted back and forth about German aircraft conspiracy theories in a previous thread. It's relevent because it relates to the previous posts on this thread about German aircrafts and conspiracy theories, however I can see that no one found it funny (Smithsonian was from the previous thread- sorry for the confusion). I realize it has nothing to do with WC and due to the reaction, I regret posting it- .. I'm sorry

 

[Cyberion]

And cyberion does not seem to comprehend my point. when I, Edmo, call a F-22 an uber fighter, I'm in no way whatsoever claiming that it's invincible. Just that it's better than most of the other current active fighters.

hmmm, it seems i got what you were trying to say...

but still I think the word Uber isn't appropriate here... Just call it the best fighter available today. That was my point, not to call it Uber. So i guess you missed my point as well But i'm glad we finally came to the solution

Cyb

 

[Edfilho]

OOOOOOh, so the nazi x-1 thing was a joke... ehehehehe, I thought it was serious. sorry then.
ehehehe, now I get that.

BTw, yeah, nice that we agree

 

[Mjr. Whoopass]

OOOOOOh, so the nazi x-1 thing was a joke... ehehehehe, I thought it was serious. sorry then.
ehehehe, now I get that.

, that's a relief! I didn't think it was THAT funny, but I didn't think it would be bad enough to deserve THREE flame posts in a row!! Maybe that's a new WC Forum record? Yeah, I can see how you would think I was insane if I was serious about that.